What is a Naval Base?

[rancke]

I have read McEvans post, but I'm not able to find in MT:RSB pages 33-34 (the chapter about Depots) a single reference about them being devoid of civilian inhabitants.

There's a description in BtC about the population of Macene (not a depot, but a naval base) being composed of 'naval personnel or their dependents'.

And as I've pointed out before, a job filled by a transient has pretty much the same economic impact as a job filled by a resident. An UWP that doesn't include the average number of transients is much less useful than one that does.

And some IN personnel might be in long enough assignment as for not being considered transients.

If they intend to leave when their job is done, they're transients.

I understand you point here, and I'm a little contradictory in it. The infrastructure is, and remains, there while population doesn't. As told in other posts, I don't believe that the fact an Imperial Division (about 12-15000 people) lands in a pop 3 planet for a long garrison duty doesn't rise the pop of the planet to 4.

Is there a mistype here? It seems to me that you are saying that a world with a thousand residents and ten thousand transients should have a pop level of 4.

Also, the infrastructure (mostly starport and TL) in UWP also tells you what you can expect to find when you arrive there.

No, it's what facilities a civilian can expect to find available to him. Worlds with a starport E can produce military ships for its planetary navy using local resources. That means that if they do there's a shipyard there despite the starport class not reflecting it. How can that be? Simple: The shipyard doesn't work for civilians -- at least not visiting civilians. And starport class is a civilian rating.

E-SAH000-0 means a barren world, and that's not what you'll find in a Depot.

Which is why transients should count in the UWP.

You can get help from its starport and personnel if you need it, to give you an example, and nowhere (AFAIK) is said Depots are off limits for civilian traffic (though probably it is restricted to few zones in the system).

Emergency help you can almost certainly get, but what makes you think you can get a naval depot to build a ship for you or perform annual maintenance for you?

Should a Depot fill a gap between two mains, I guess tramp freighters will be allowed to refuel there, and probably even to trade there. It's hard for me also to believe all supplies and consumables are carried by military ships. Probably (IMHO) there are even regular civilian traffic to/from depots for personnel, mail and other cargoes.

Obviously, if there are shipyards and maintenance and repair facilities there that are open to civilian traffic there's going to be sufficient civilian traffic to support it and a civilian population to run it. Which is why there's a discrepancy between McEvan's description and most canon depots.


Hans

 

[MCEvans]

The best description of a Depot, and corrects some of my misconceptions is Digest 7 which describes Depot(Dynam)/Lishun.
This is a depot described as one of the few (only) that does NOT build or even designs ships.
In fact is was being shut down until after 3FW was over and basically became a storage depot only with assignment by volunteer.

 

[rancke]

The best description of a Depot, and corrects some of my misconceptions is Digest 7 which describes Depot(Dynam)/Lishun.

This is a depot described as one of the few (only) that does NOT build or even designs ships.

In fact is was being shut down until after 3FW was over and basically became a storage depot only with assignment by volunteer.

I thought you were quoting a general description of depots from Rebellion Sourcebook.

So the 'no locals' was a misunderstanding on your part, was it?


Hans

 

[McPerth]

There's a description in BtC about the population of Macene (not a depot, but a naval base) being composed of 'naval personnel or their dependents'.

Excuse me, what does BtC mean? If I know it I'm not able to remember it now.

And as I've pointed out before, a job filled by a transient has pretty much the same economic impact as a job filled by a resident. An UWP that doesn't include the average number of transients is much less useful than one that does.

And having an UWP that changes every time you visit the planet (at least in social digits) is neither too useful, IMHO.

Is there a mistype here? It seems to me that you are saying that a world with a thousand residents and ten thousand transients should have a pop level of 4.

No, I say I don't believe so, as would be the conclusion of your reasoning. And BTW, I forgot to say that if the 12-15000 people in the Imperial Division is counted in the UWP, then probably the gov code also changes to 6 (if not already so).

-No, it's what facilities a civilian can expect to find available to him. Worlds with a starport E can produce military ships for its planetary navy using local resources. That means that if they do there's a shipyard there despite the starport class not reflecting it. How can that be? Simple: The shipyard doesn't work for civilians -- at least not visiting civilians. And starport class is a civilian rating.

Oer there are no such a shipyard and ships are being build as nearly artesanal work by other kinds of industry, more or less like nowdays Earth is building the ISS.

-Which is why transients should count in the UWP.

Thinking a little more about your point, if neither the transients nor their infrastructures are counted, the UWP would be ESAH06?-F, as even if you don't count them, you may interact with them and,as such, once you enter the system you'll be under militaruy rule (so gov 6), under the law level they impose and any patrol you confront will be TL 15.

-Emergency help you can almost certainly get, but what makes you think you can get a naval depot to build a ship for you or perform annual maintenance for you?

Not in the military ones, ...

-Obviously, if there are shipyards and maintenance and repair facilities there that are open to civilian traffic there's going to be sufficient civilian traffic to support it and a civilian population to run it. Which is why there's a discrepancy between McEvan's description and most canon depots.

...but , as I said, I've not read anywere Depots are devoid of civilian inhabitants (I had no access to Digest 7, so I won't talk about it), and I still believe there are spaceport for buisines too, even if mainly for the military contractors.

 

[rancke]

Excuse me, what does BtC mean? If I know it I'm not able to remember it now.

GT:Behind the Claw.

But military bases are far from the only, or even the most common, examples of worlds whose populations are composed mainly or entirely of transients. Almost all (and I include the 'almost' only to head off quibbles) low-population worlds are outposts whose population consists of people being there to do a job and then go home again: Scientific outposts, mining outposts, trade stations.

And having an UWP that changes every time you visit the planet (at least in social digits) is neither too useful, IMHO.

Good thing I'm not proposing that then. There are two kinds of transients: Those just passing through (like ship's crew) and those who, when they leave, will be replaced by another transient. This would include scientists on scientific outposts, miners on mining outposts, personnel on trade outposts, military personnel on Imperial bases, starport personnel, and tourists. Those transients that are replaced by another when they leave is indistinguishable from a permanent resident for economic purposes. And there are various economic rules that are based on the population level of the UWP. It follows that any person who contribute to the economic level of activity is counted as part of the population.

Or there are no such a shipyard and ships are being build as nearly artesanal work by other kinds of industry, more or less like nowdays Earth is building the ISS.

What do you imagine a shipyard is if not the infrastructure to build ships?


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

What do you imagine a shipyard is if not the infrastructure to build ships?

Hans

Hans, shipyards exist that cannot build ships. I have spoken with two small yards in the Great Lakes of the US with respect to a project that I am working on. One yard has a small floating drydock that they use to repair, bottom clean, and inspect tugs for the most part. They do no building. For a slightly larger vessel, they can do superstructure and some interior work, along with engine refits and replacement. The US Coast Guard requires inspections as to seaworthiness and regulation compliance every 5 years. That gives them additional work. Depending on the age of the ship, the insurers may require more frequent docking and inspections. They are presently also engaged in scrapping, in stages, a larger ex-passenger vessel.

The other yard has the capability of building small, unpowered barges of up the 180 feet, say 55 meters in length. They have a slightly larger dry dock, which handles the larger tugs. They engage in the same work as the first yard that I mentioned. The owner is also widely regarded as a major headache to work with, but the yard does excellent work.

Neither of these yards are in towns with a large population, and are major employers in the communities. There is another yard that I am familiar with that has a couple of large graving docks capable of handling a ship up to 1,000 feet in length. They can build ships that size, but about all of their work is repair, refit, clean, and inspection work. Again, the yard is not in a large city, and it is the major employer in the community.

I have no problems whatsoever assuming that in the Traveller universe, there are numerous military and civilian yards very similar to these, where the primary function is ship repair, maintenance, and inspection, with no or very limited building ability. Aircraft repair and maintenance is handled the same way. Jet airlines and military aircraft, and for that matter, small personal aircraft do not go back to the manufacturer for repair. They are worked on either locally, at the airport where they are based, or are flown to an aircraft maintenance facility.

As a corollary to this, I go with standardized starship components, so that parts are readily available without requiring special order. For a real world example, a diesel engine commonly used by diesel-electric tugs here in the US is the same diesel used by diesel-electric locomotives. This makes spare parts readily available. The fusion plant for a small starship can also be used for supplying power to a small city. The high capacity batteries for air rafts and ATVs also supply back up power for critical building such as hospitals, fire stations, and police stations. Even then, for ships operating on the fringe areas, they either carry a pretty good load of spares, or take a chance on having to sit for a while. An analogous situation on Earth would be a ship operating in the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific blowing out the head gasket on a diesel, and having to get one sent in. That would take 1 to 3 weeks, and your ships crew better be able to do the work. If not, it is a long tow to Brisbane, Australia.

 

[rancke]

Hans, shipyards exist that cannot build ships.

I would have thought that such places were called dockyards, but Wikipedia tells me the two terms are used interchangably.

However, I was speaking of Traveller starship yards, not 21st Century wet ship yards.

Also, I wasn't talking about shipyards that did or did not build ships but about what you call a place that do build starships. The definition of Class A starport is that the kind of shipyards they have there is the kind that is capable of building starships. If the shipyard is only a dockyard, the starport is not Class A.

Class E starports have, by defintion, nowhere for a visiting civilian to get a ship built or maintained or repaired. Planetary navies have places where ships are built (and presumably also maintained and repaired). If the mere presence of the infrastructure to build ships was enough to qualify a starport for Class A status, such worlds would have Class A starports. Since it is possible to have the infrastructure to build ships without having a Class A starport, something else must be required before such an infrastructure does indeed convey such a status on a starport. What could that something else be? I submit that it's the availablilty of the services of the infrastructure to civilians.

If you or McPerth can suggest a different reason for having the infrastructure to build, maintain, and repair ships but not a Class A starport, I'd be most intrerested to hear it.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

I would have thought that such places were called dockyards, but Wikipedia tells me the two terms are used interchangably.

However, I was speaking of Traveller starship yards, not 21st Century wet ship yards.

Also, I wasn't talking about shipyards that did or did not build ships but about what you call a place that do build starships. The definition of Class A starport is that the kind of shipyards they have there is the kind that is capable of building starships. If the shipyard is only a dockyard, the starport is not Class A.

Class E starports have, by defintion, nowhere for a visiting civilian to get a ship built or maintained or repaired. Planetary navies have places where ships are built (and presumably also maintained and repaired). If the mere presence of the infrastructure to build ships was enough to qualify a starport for Class A status, such worlds would have Class A starports. Since it is possible to have the infrastructure to build ships without having a Class A starport, something else must be required before such an infrastructure does indeed convey such a status on a starport. What could that something else be? I submit that it's the availablilty of the services of the infrastructure to civilians.

If you or McPerth can suggest a different reason for having the infrastructure to build, maintain, and repair ships but not a Class A starport, I'd be most intrerested to hear it.


Hans

Wow. Hans, I fully agree with this, and almost posted the exact same thing. Luckily I had two windows open, and saw that you had already posted it.

Oh, and this is one of those cases where the rules define the (setting), your own arguments above prove it. :rofl:

 

[MCEvans]

So the 'no locals' was a misunderstanding on your part, was it?


Hans

I believe so in the case of Depot/Lishun you tell me.
There are 3 planetary bodies with populations:

1 Dynam D788367-7 M Military Base
2 Trojan Small GG
9 Calescence Y300000-0
11 Candescene C210365-D D Military Base. Current Naval Depot
35 Calefact Y756000-0 Science Research Station
45 Cryomet G500169-D M Military Base. Old Depot Facilities
3 Planetoid Belt G000000-0 Abandoned belter spaceport

[the above looked better when I typed it. I need to now editing tricks for this forum. ]

rest of system is undeveloped
1 Small GG with 8 satellites
a companion star (no satellites of its own)
a rocky planet with 2 satellites

As for the Rebellion Sourcebook I was summarizing not directly quoting.
On further examination of page 33 it makes no mention of locals BUT does not rule them out either.

 

[rancke]

Oh, and this is one of those cases where the rules define the (setting), your own arguments above prove it. :rofl:

Nice try, but no. I believe that UWPs and starport ratings are viewpoint writing. That means there's an in-universe agency (I presume the Scouts) that assign them. So it's an in-setting rule that starports don't get a class A rating unless they provide various specified services that you need a certain minimum number of people to provide.

This does open the way for the "the UWP is a mistake" explanation[*], but I don't mind that. If the population level of that world with the Class A starport and a pop level of 3 -- too few to maintain a complete shipbuilding infrastructure -- actually has a pop level of 8, then the UWP is wrong and should be amended[**], just as I'd been saying all along.

[*] Though not the "the UWP is old" explanation, because that one require that the UWP made sense back when it was new.

[**] As soon as the Scouts discover the mistake, which for worlds with a high amount of interstellar traffic should be Any Day Now. ​

Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Use the Advanced Edit windows.

The little icons at the top do a lot of the cool functions you are looking for. But for the system list you tag it with

 and of course the break tag at the end. Should look like this then:

[QUOTE="MCEvans, post: 407649, member: 15210"]/ker-snip/

[CODE]1    Dynam                      D788367-7  M   Military Base
2    Trojan                       Small GG
  9  Calescence                 Y300000-0
 11 Candescene                C210365-D  D   Military Base. Current Naval Depot
 35 Calefact                     Y756000-0        Science Research Station
 45 Cryomet                    G500169-D  M   Military Base. Old Depot Facilities
3    Planetoid Belt             G000000-0       Abandoned belter spaceport

[the above looked better when I typed it. I need to now editing tricks for this forum. ]

rest of system is undeveloped

• 1 Small GG with 8 satellites
• a companion star (no satellites of its own)
• a rocky planet with 2 satellites

/snippity/[/QUOTE]

The # icon third in from the right, bottom row will wrap for you. You should get a tool tip if you hover the icons. That is how I figured a lot of this out.

Hope that helps.

Laterness,
Craig.

 

[McPerth]

GT:Behind the Claw.

TY. Not read, so I trust your word about it (and I have no reason to do otherwise).

Good thing I'm not proposing that then. There are two kinds of transients: Those just passing through (like ship's crew) and those who, when they leave, will be replaced by another transient. This would include scientists on scientific outposts, miners on mining outposts, personnel on trade outposts, military personnel on Imperial bases, starport personnel, and tourists. Those transients that are replaced by another when they leave is indistinguishable from a permanent resident for economic purposes. And there are various economic rules that are based on the population level of the UWP. It follows that any person who contribute to the economic level of activity is counted as part of the population.

Ok. I understand this transients difference, and I guess we had (again) a problem with nomenclature, as I don't see those 'permanent transients' (or replaced when leave) as true transients, as their nuber remains more or less stable and, as you say, they contribute (or many times are the base) to the world economy (though I wouldn't count tourists among them, as they nubers may vary quite a lot. We have towns in Catalonia whose population is augmented up to tenfold by tourists in summer).

I remember to have read in some TD or JTAS (not wure where, so I cannot give you exact references, nor tell you how much canon it is) that bases and starport personnel are somtimes counted on pop and sometimes not, and the same happens to civilan access to their facilities. They put the examples of modern US AFBs (as non civilan access) vs the Wild West US army forts (as military facilities whith civilan access).

What do you imagine a shipyard is if not the infrastructure to build ships?

I imagine it's the infrastructure to build ships in quantity, usually in assembly lines. A class E starport may build ships for its own plantary navy, according to HG, but that desn't mean they have shipyards, not even military ones, and those ships must be built planetside (and so limited to those that can land) and are nearly artesan work, IMHO.

 

[MCEvans]

Thanks Craig that does help

 

[Carlobrand]

I wouldn't say HG combat involving meson spinals is deadly. Crippling, yes, deadly, not.

As I've told in several other threads, the more likely result in a HG blattle involving meson spinals is just a few truly destroyed (or not worth repairing) ships and many crippled or disabled ones to capture (unless scuttled) by the one that keeps the 'battlefield', and easily repairable in less than 8 weeks (according TCS repair times) once they reach a starport capable to repair them.

As HG rules stand, the only way to truly destroy a ship beyond repair is the ship vaporized critical result, which will occur only once in 36 criticals, all other results (fuel tanks shattered, out of fuel or crew, computers out, PP out, etc...) crippling the ship but leaving it easy repairable as told above.

Off course, unless you're fighting in a system where you can repair them, or you take ships capable to repair along with your fleet (probable, but no canon reference to them, nor rules to build them, AFAIK), you'll need recovery ships (again no canon reference to them) to take those crippled ships to a starport to repair them. This would be easy if the crippled ships are BRs and you have tenders in system (even if that might mean to leave some of your own BRs stranded in position for a while), but if what you want to recovery is a 200 kdton BB, things get a little harder...

And if the damage is done by missiles, all said keeps true, only a little easier to repair the ships, as they involve quite a few less criticals.

All technically correct but mostly irrelevant unless you win the battle or brought recovery ships with you. After battle, the victor can transfer crews and jury-rig field repairs, including patching of shattered tanks (TCS), for anything not destroyed by a critical result, so can limp home most of his victorious fleet if the system doesn't have a suitable starport. The vanquished can only hope he can hold you off long enough to conduct quick in-battle repairs (HG) to get a ship out, but that's not possible with fuel tanks, so he is forced to abandon many of his cripples.

 

[McPerth]

All technically correct but mostly irrelevant unless you win the battle or brought recovery ships with you. After battle, the victor can transfer crews and jury-rig field repairs, including patching of shattered tanks (TCS), for anything not destroyed by a critical result, so can limp home most of his victorious fleet if the system doesn't have a suitable starport. The vanquished can only hope he can hold you off long enough to conduct quick in-battle repairs (HG) to get a ship out, but that's not possible with fuel tanks, so he is forced to abandon many of his cripples.

Not only the victor may return to base with most of its victorious fleet, but with many captures (unless scuttled).

As I said in other threads, this makes difficult (to me at least) to understand the high levels of losses told about in the Rebellion, as I understand many ships will only be captured and change hands, easier than in any other war due to the fact they're the same ship clases than the victor's.

THis was discussed time ago in this other thread: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=23597

 

[phavoc]

I'm late to the discussion, but I'll chime in anyways..

A naval base isn't going to have a cookie cutter applied to it. Besides, 'base' is a very generic term, and could cover something from a sector level depot all the way down to a automated navigation station sitting on the perimeter of a star system.

Like most everything else with the military, form follows function. Some bases will be designed to handle just a handful of ships, and provide supplies, fuel, basic repairs and the like. These may be of a temporary or more permanent type, depending on the mission of the base.

I would say that most all bases will have at least some level of defense. That could be a chain link fence to a pair of missile launcher satellites for an orbital base. Defenses, too, will depend on the relative importance of the base and the expected defensive requirements. Bases close to possible battle zones will be heavily defended and one would expect they would closely monitor all space-going traffic. Bases further to the rear, or in areas where no known enemies exist will have minimal defenses.

Due to the vast size and changing needs of the Imperium, I would suspect that there are more than a few mobile bases that are built up for a specific period and then moved, turned over to local authorities, or abandoned after their useful life is over. I would also suspect that there are a number of mobile engineering repair ships floating around to support vessels closer to the fighting lines. It makes no sense to send your battle fleet far to the rear for repairs unless absolutely necessary (and the scope of the repairs would strain the resources of your front-line repair bases).

I would think that the Navy engineers (i.e. the Seabees of the future) would be quite good at setting up temporary bases, or blasting out caverns from an asteroid to set up a base quickly and efficiently (think of the Seabees from WW2 setting up airstrips in days, and repairing them within hours).

 

[McPerth]

Due to the vast size and changing needs of the Imperium, I would suspect that there are more than a few mobile bases that are built up for a specific period and then moved, turned over to local authorities, or abandoned after their useful life is over. I would also suspect that there are a number of mobile engineering repair ships floating around to support vessels closer to the fighting lines. It makes no sense to send your battle fleet far to the rear for repairs unless absolutely necessary (and the scope of the repairs would strain the resources of your front-line repair bases).

I guess we all agree those mobile repair shops should exist in Traveller, so your ships may be repaired (at least from non-critical damage) on site, but AFAIK there are no rules to design them (at least for ships larger than a BR, as tenders may well make this function for them), not canon reference to them.

I would think that the Navy engineers (i.e. the Seabees of the future) would be quite good at setting up temporary bases, or blasting out caverns from an asteroid to set up a base quickly and efficiently (think of the Seabees from WW2 setting up airstrips in days, and repairing them within hours).

I'm sure the IN has those engineers capable to build a temporary base, but I wouldn't name them true bases in the sense of those shown in Traveller maps. Probably some such facilities you talk about exist in most Imperial planets (at least Starport C+ ones), and yet there are only about 3-5 bases per subsector (at large, not counted exactly).

Also see the differences among WWII Pacific war, where communications were instantaneous and resupply (at least critical one that could be airlifted) hours away against OTU, where communications last weeks and resupply, as critical as it could be is weeks away. And anyway those airstrips built by the SeaBees had no repair capability, and the ships had yet to return to ports for servicing.

 

[phavoc]

I found a very interesting page that outlined ships of the US Navy during WW2, including engineering and repair ships.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-ships.html#ar

I'd have to look in my Sector Fleet again, but I don't think there was a lot of info regarding the fleet trains (which are very unglamorous, but without them the battlefleets come to a screeching halt).

It's true about communication being instantaneous during the war, but it's not unprecedented to have bases and fleets away from the command structure for weeks or months at a time.