What is SOC Below 7?

[robject]

Originally posted by Elliot:
Sheer social performance?

Yes, that's what I said. Do you think I meant something else? Because I might have.

Aren't we brainstorming here?

By 'social performance', I think I mean that the standards by which nobles judge each other are primarily social (for some definition of social), whereas the standards by which middle classpeople judge each other is primarily wealth (by some definition of wealth), and the standards by which the lower classpeople judge each other is primarily in skill (for some definition of skill).

Thus, the way to climb the social ladder changes as one goes higher up the ladder.

No, I've never used this idea in a game. I'm brainstorming. Made it up. Trying it out.

Since we're playing Traveller, this means I believe Traveller PCs are upwardly mobile. I have said nothing about what I believe the rest of the Imperial populations' attitudes or potentials are. I haven't thought about it much.

Aren't we brainstorming here?

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Elliot:
Sheer social performance?

Yes, that's what I said. Do you think I meant something else? Because I might have.

Aren't we brainstorming here?

By 'social performance', I think I mean that the standards by which nobles judge each other are primarily social (for some definition of social), whereas the standards by which middle classpeople judge each other is primarily wealth (by some definition of wealth), and the standards by which the lower classpeople judge each other is primarily in skill (for some definition of skill).

Thus, the way to climb the social ladder changes as one goes higher up the ladder.

No, I've never used this idea in a game. I'm brainstorming. Made it up. Trying it out.

Since we're playing Traveller, this means I believe Traveller PCs are upwardly mobile. I have said nothing about what I believe the rest of the Imperial populations' attitudes or potentials are. I haven't thought about it much.

Aren't we brainstorming here?

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Elliot:

What do you mean by the 'social' part? That if you are soc 4 and go to manners class after getting your title you can fit in?

[...]

What lucky people you Americans are with your egalitarianism (I am not being sarcastic) - you should try coming from the streets in Britain and trying to make your better. Its a tough struggle. The entrance figures to University from the lower rungs of society has not changed in 30 years.

Wasn't this issue dealt with in Pygmalion?

And yes, a knight is a knight, even if he has the manners of a brute. Isn't this a feudal system?

As far as fitting-in goes... well, I think Traveller nobility is more like a prison or a gang than a country club. When you first show up, you have to either beat someone to a pulp or else become someone's minion. Earn your own respect or leech onto others' by putting yourself in submission to them. Whence the Knightly Orders, I suppose.

And then, Elliot, since my family were not Travellers, we rose through the ranks the hard way -- we left our Cockney roots in London behind when my Great-Grandfather came back from serving in the occupation of India and took his family to British Columbia. So perhaps 'upwardly mobile' has more than one meaning, although it took three generations instead of one.

However, I still have relatives in London, and some of them seem to be doing ok. I don't suppose it was easy; why should it be easy or any less than fortunate to have an opportunity to claw your way up?

So yes, I am very thankful that we are more egalitarian than England. But we've got a class system of a sort, too. Over here it's generally called racism, but we make some rough distinctions in other ways, too. Give us another thousand years and perhaps we'll come 'round to a proper straitjacket for every person.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Elliot:

What do you mean by the 'social' part? That if you are soc 4 and go to manners class after getting your title you can fit in?

[...]

What lucky people you Americans are with your egalitarianism (I am not being sarcastic) - you should try coming from the streets in Britain and trying to make your better. Its a tough struggle. The entrance figures to University from the lower rungs of society has not changed in 30 years.

Wasn't this issue dealt with in Pygmalion?

And yes, a knight is a knight, even if he has the manners of a brute. Isn't this a feudal system?

As far as fitting-in goes... well, I think Traveller nobility is more like a prison or a gang than a country club. When you first show up, you have to either beat someone to a pulp or else become someone's minion. Earn your own respect or leech onto others' by putting yourself in submission to them. Whence the Knightly Orders, I suppose.

And then, Elliot, since my family were not Travellers, we rose through the ranks the hard way -- we left our Cockney roots in London behind when my Great-Grandfather came back from serving in the occupation of India and took his family to British Columbia. So perhaps 'upwardly mobile' has more than one meaning, although it took three generations instead of one.

However, I still have relatives in London, and some of them seem to be doing ok. I don't suppose it was easy; why should it be easy or any less than fortunate to have an opportunity to claw your way up?

So yes, I am very thankful that we are more egalitarian than England. But we've got a class system of a sort, too. Over here it's generally called racism, but we make some rough distinctions in other ways, too. Give us another thousand years and perhaps we'll come 'round to a proper straitjacket for every person.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by Jame]:
What are the "classes" for the SOCs below 7? Specifically, what is a "4?"

Here are my own thoughts on low social standing, suitable for inclusion in your own games..

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/scum.html

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by Jame]:
What are the "classes" for the SOCs below 7? Specifically, what is a "4?"

Here are my own thoughts on low social standing, suitable for inclusion in your own games..

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/scum.html

 

[Elliot]

Can I just say robject that I meant no offence in the above post. Perhaps a little gripe of mine interfered with my discussion of the game. What I should have said is that social dynamics in an ancien regime society (I consider the 3I to be such) cannot be rated in a meritocratic statistical progression.

I now understand your social performance part. Keep on developing it, I can see the potential . As to the Imperial nobility being more like a gang - yes yes yes - that is how I see them. If you read Renaissance tragedy and then watch the Godfather series you don't notice much difference in the way the 'dons' behave.

Just a short anecdote - I was once the student of an Earl from an ancient family. He once made a comment about Lord Sainsbury (super rich guy whose family formed a huge supermarket chain and whose made a peer as a result). The comment was 'Nottingham greengrocer upstart'. When asked if Spencer from Marks and Spencer (a large chain of department type stores in UK and Europe) was related to Princess Diana Spencer's family, his reply was 'no his family were barrow boys from Leeds'.

Amongst the European artistocracy family history and the ancient nature of titles become more important the higher up you go. An Earl from Ancient lineage often has more social prestige amongst other aristos than a newly made Duke.

I assume that the same must be true in Traveller.

 

[Elliot]

Can I just say robject that I meant no offence in the above post. Perhaps a little gripe of mine interfered with my discussion of the game. What I should have said is that social dynamics in an ancien regime society (I consider the 3I to be such) cannot be rated in a meritocratic statistical progression.

I now understand your social performance part. Keep on developing it, I can see the potential . As to the Imperial nobility being more like a gang - yes yes yes - that is how I see them. If you read Renaissance tragedy and then watch the Godfather series you don't notice much difference in the way the 'dons' behave.

Just a short anecdote - I was once the student of an Earl from an ancient family. He once made a comment about Lord Sainsbury (super rich guy whose family formed a huge supermarket chain and whose made a peer as a result). The comment was 'Nottingham greengrocer upstart'. When asked if Spencer from Marks and Spencer (a large chain of department type stores in UK and Europe) was related to Princess Diana Spencer's family, his reply was 'no his family were barrow boys from Leeds'.

Amongst the European artistocracy family history and the ancient nature of titles become more important the higher up you go. An Earl from Ancient lineage often has more social prestige amongst other aristos than a newly made Duke.

I assume that the same must be true in Traveller.

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by Elliot:
Just a short anecdote - I was once the student of an Earl from an ancient family. He once made a comment about Lord Sainsbury (super rich guy whose family formed a huge supermarket chain and whose made a peer as a result). The comment was 'Nottingham greengrocer upstart'. When asked if Spencer from Marks and Spencer (a large chain of department type stores in UK and Europe) was related to Princess Diana Spencer's family, his reply was 'no his family were barrow boys from Leeds'.

*joins the Ine Gevar*

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by Elliot:
Just a short anecdote - I was once the student of an Earl from an ancient family. He once made a comment about Lord Sainsbury (super rich guy whose family formed a huge supermarket chain and whose made a peer as a result). The comment was 'Nottingham greengrocer upstart'. When asked if Spencer from Marks and Spencer (a large chain of department type stores in UK and Europe) was related to Princess Diana Spencer's family, his reply was 'no his family were barrow boys from Leeds'.

*joins the Ine Gevar*

 

[Jame]

Thanks for the list, Corejob. I don't know if I can use it, but ye never know.

 

[Jame]

Thanks for the list, Corejob. I don't know if I can use it, but ye never know.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Elliot:
...social dynamics in an ancien regime society (I consider the 3I to be such) cannot be rated in a meritocratic statistical progression.

That makes great sense to me. I am quite blind to the fact that a civilization and culture over a thousand years old is going to have meaning attached to family trees. Thank you, you've given me a lot to think about.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Elliot:
...social dynamics in an ancien regime society (I consider the 3I to be such) cannot be rated in a meritocratic statistical progression.

That makes great sense to me. I am quite blind to the fact that a civilization and culture over a thousand years old is going to have meaning attached to family trees. Thank you, you've given me a lot to think about.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Corejob:
Here are my own thoughts on low social standing, suitable for inclusion in your own games..

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/scum.html

Hmmm! I see you conveniently have six columns; players with low SOC could roll a d6 to find out which disadvantage they suffer from. Very nice!

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Corejob:
Here are my own thoughts on low social standing, suitable for inclusion in your own games..

http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/scum.html

Hmmm! I see you conveniently have six columns; players with low SOC could roll a d6 to find out which disadvantage they suffer from. Very nice!