General Does someone in the Imperium really have a low SOC?
- Thread starter Spinward Scout
- Start date
Which is precisely why they were in banking and finance: Jews were forbidden to own property, but they could own money. And Christianity frowned on banking as a career path (Lev 25:36-37, for example, paraphrased by ol' Billy as "Neither a borrower nor a lender be.")
The associated lack of rights often came in handy when a noble found himelf overdrawn....
to properly decide which heartland American kid's
backseat to be a debutante in.
Daidoji Dave
SOC-12
Member worlds of the Imperium vary widely in law, government, tech level, wealth, and standard of living. Many will have poor people; most or practically all will have lower classes.
Living space on a high Pop, Industrial world with a tainted atmosphere might be smaller than 21st century garden world Earth. Most families might have small apartments, and single adults might sleep in rented tubes rather than live in full apartments. Working stiffs might be 3-5 Soc, and the unemployed at 2.
Or imagine a high tech world with guaranteed basic income. Citizens get a place to live, enough to eat, and all the entertainment that will (hopefully) keep them occupied, just for being born. But those who live on it might be low Soc, while the gainfully employed are mostly 6-8 and grateful to have even that.
Belters are canonical, and aren't typically high Soc.
Same for Pirates and Others (Classic)/Rogues (Mongoose). They get their own careers, but they're Not Quite Our Class Dear.
Ground-bound scavengers not fully plugged in to galactic civilization are strongly implied.
Self-sufficient ruralites not plugged in to galactic civilization at all might be another. How many cults, religions, utopians, communes, idealists might try striking out on a new world and settling in to farming, whether literal or hydroponic. "Space Amish," for lack of a better term. But some would "boil off" and move in to town or out to space. Where they might find they weren't up on all the latest fashions and lingo.
Maybe the far future still has football hooligans. Only now it's gravball or roller derby with weighted gloves or something, but same spirit. May combine with guaranteed income above.
Nathan Brazil
SOC-14 1K
Bladerunner (1982)
"Stop right where you are! You know the score, pal. You're not cop, you're little people!"
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003)
...secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.
, courtesy of the IISS.
Speculation: To be a member of Third Imperium means a world has follow some basic rules to prove and maintain fealty. I suggest one aspect that must exist if not formally, but at least as courtesy is an observance/respect for Imperial Patents of Nobility. At the least, like the Imperial Rules of War lacking specifics (except the nukes), member worlds should respect the nobility of other worlds whether they are "actual" or "service/courtesy" nobles (however T5 does that). It would at the least be impolitic to go harassing/imprisoning/killing nobles of other worlds for their cultural differences. Nobles with the higher titles may actually cause your world problems should they survive!
The nobility provides a commonality of SOC practices if not rules across which all 3I worlds must be aware of, even if they would rather not follow. "Little people" are not necessarily so fortunate. But there are rules for them in my next post...
"Stop right where you are! You know the score, pal. You're not cop, you're little people!"
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003)
...secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.
I speculate with some confidence AND I just found a whole bunch of RAW to prove me wrong
, courtesy of the IISS. Speculation: To be a member of Third Imperium means a world has follow some basic rules to prove and maintain fealty. I suggest one aspect that must exist if not formally, but at least as courtesy is an observance/respect for Imperial Patents of Nobility. At the least, like the Imperial Rules of War lacking specifics (except the nukes), member worlds should respect the nobility of other worlds whether they are "actual" or "service/courtesy" nobles (however T5 does that). It would at the least be impolitic to go harassing/imprisoning/killing nobles of other worlds for their cultural differences. Nobles with the higher titles may actually cause your world problems should they survive!
The nobility provides a commonality of SOC practices if not rules across which all 3I worlds must be aware of, even if they would rather not follow. "Little people" are not necessarily so fortunate. But there are rules for them in my next post...
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Nathan Brazil
SOC-14 1K
Newly Discovered RAW with the help of the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service! Without going into WHAT the SOC differences look like, you can roll it if you don't want to role it... MgT2E World Builder's Handbook has partial answers. You can apply DMs to social interactions if a cultural difference comes into play. The IISS formally tracks worlds with a Cultural Profile following these traits:
DXUS-CPEM
The first four correspond directly to the HASS cultural profile found in in travellermap.com/Traveller 5. WBH has rules to convert those T5 values to Mongoose WBH. With this, you could play that the "Travellers" are worldly with a 7 and compare the "local yokels" deviation from norms.
OR (just a suggestion)
You COULD also use YOUR Homeworld's Cultural Profile or YOUR CHARACTERS PERSONAL WORLDVIEWS to compare to that of the world you are adventuring on (think the Pendragon RPG values profile). If you want to get that complicated....
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Nathan Brazil
SOC-14 1K
That's all fine and well imagery for a TL1-2 Society @Condottiere . This seems far more more appropriate for future Millennia
THE EMPEROR PROTECTS
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Bladerunner (1982)
"Stop right where you are! You know the score, pal. You're not cop, you're little people!"
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003)
...secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.
I speculate with some confidence AND I just found a whole bunch of RAW to prove me wrong
Speculation: To be a member of Third Imperium means a world has follow some basic rules to prove and maintain fealty. I suggest one aspect that must exist if not formally, but at least as courtesy is an observance/respect for Imperial Patents of Nobility. At the least, like the Imperial Rules of War lacking specifics (except the nukes), member worlds should respect the nobility of other worlds whether they are "actual" or "service/courtesy" nobles (however T5 does that). It would at the least be impolitic to go harassing/imprisoning/killing nobles of other worlds for their cultural differences. Nobles with the higher titles may actually cause your world problems should they survive!
The nobility provides a commonality of SOC practices if not rules across which all 3I worlds must be aware of, even if they would rather not follow. "Little people" are not necessarily so fortunate. But there are rules for them in my next post...
to all of the above. But I also think it is important to keep in mind that Soc is an "Imperial Scale" Character Stat and rates a character relative to that "Interstellar" environment. Soc may vary or need a Mod going from world to world (or even environment to environment) to gauge the actual "practical" and "effective" Soc-value for a given environment (this is a place where the T5 HASS extensions for a world can come into play). Obviously, Nobility will have the force of Imperial Law behind it as a stabilizer (but Mods, good or bad, may still be appropriate in terms of reactions, etc, for given environs).
On any given world, culture, isolation, and TL, may all play a role in effective Soc. The "King" of a TL-3 Nation on a low-tech / mid-population world may be effectively Soc=7 or 8 relative to the Imperial Soc-Scale, for example (depending on the territorial size of the nation and its importance on the world), and your Imperial Knight might not be recognized with his due level of normal deference and respect, depending on the world's relationship to the Imperium (Member, Client, non-Member, Marginally-aware, Oblivious, etc.).
As an example of SOC importance, I remember there was an adventure for MT that involved a SolSec agent. It was specified that this agent will probably ahve a file on any character who was rank 6 or SOC B+
Another detail: SOC A is considered noble for many pourposes (incluiding enetering on the Noble career in CT/MT), but holds no title. I guess they would be what in england is known as Squire, not full nobles, but with some of their privileges...
Another detail: SOC A is considered noble for many pourposes (incluiding enetering on the Noble career in CT/MT), but holds no title. I guess they would be what in england is known as Squire, not full nobles, but with some of their privileges...
Badenov
SOC-12
So I think a thing that has eluded the discussion is how unlike RL this is, and how we need to not think in the generally fairly egalitarian Western mindset when we think about Soc. Many Eastern societies have much more stratified social orders that no amount of bathing and manners will allieviate (Untouchables in India being an example).
In more egalitarian Traveller universes, like in Western society, you can generally rise up to about Soc 9 with a combination elocution lessons, baths, and a wardrobe change. Past that, you need actual connections (as demonstrated by throwing a 10 or higher on a Soc roll), luck of high birth (Soc A or higher in rolled stats), or Imperial service (Army, Navy, and Marines all get at least Soc A at some point).
But also, in RL, Soc is semi-independent of the trappings of class, where in Traveller, the trappings of class are part of what give you claim to that Soc rating. In RL, Paris Hilton can dress down and still be a celebrity. In Traveller, if you're a noble but wearing Soc 6 clothes, you might get arrested or accosted where that wouldn't happen in your noble regalia, and it'll take time to clear up because 'everyone claims they're the duke's son, we get that four times a week'. You can of course dress down to impersonate a lower Soc, to get into seedy night clubs and so on of course,
but it's a bit harder to impersonate Soc A or higher just because it's generally so rare that individual people are known. More than the handfull with titles and duties, but not more than a dozen or two?
That said, I think there's a bit of a disconnect because while that's how things are described, 1 char in 6 will roll a 10+ in Soc, which on a planet of 2 million, would be 333,333 people. It seems like there shouldn't be that many Soc A people on a planet. Am I misunderstanding the game again?
In more egalitarian Traveller universes, like in Western society, you can generally rise up to about Soc 9 with a combination elocution lessons, baths, and a wardrobe change. Past that, you need actual connections (as demonstrated by throwing a 10 or higher on a Soc roll), luck of high birth (Soc A or higher in rolled stats), or Imperial service (Army, Navy, and Marines all get at least Soc A at some point).
But also, in RL, Soc is semi-independent of the trappings of class, where in Traveller, the trappings of class are part of what give you claim to that Soc rating. In RL, Paris Hilton can dress down and still be a celebrity. In Traveller, if you're a noble but wearing Soc 6 clothes, you might get arrested or accosted where that wouldn't happen in your noble regalia, and it'll take time to clear up because 'everyone claims they're the duke's son, we get that four times a week'. You can of course dress down to impersonate a lower Soc, to get into seedy night clubs and so on of course,
but it's a bit harder to impersonate Soc A or higher just because it's generally so rare that individual people are known. More than the handfull with titles and duties, but not more than a dozen or two?
That said, I think there's a bit of a disconnect because while that's how things are described, 1 char in 6 will roll a 10+ in Soc, which on a planet of 2 million, would be 333,333 people. It seems like there shouldn't be that many Soc A people on a planet. Am I misunderstanding the game again?
SOC 10 at age 18 would be someone who has been to the right schools (Eton, Harrow, Winchester, etc or, rather, their 3I equivalent) - you have the wealth and connections, but not the clout, someone whose parent received a knighthood or achieved high rank in an Imperial career, or a member of a junior (untitled) branch of a noble family.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Ever get pulled over, because you don't look like you should own an air/raft?
Nathan Brazil
SOC-14 1K
Did he buy the Whomobile from the BBC?
That proper education component is part of why I settled on EDU as social rank. The upper classes will MAKE SURE their progeny attend the right schools to be educated to run things and socialize with the ‘right’ people.
More mobility in terms of those correspondence courses upping rank and scientists/academics/doctors being respected, so a different milieu then the strict class structure, but the right school component is a big part of maintaining ‘proper social order’.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
How far does a Cee Plus average get you in Education?
Schooling at that level is preparatory to what the role(s) the aristocratic progeny is supposed to play in society.
And networking.
Schooling at that level is preparatory to what the role(s) the aristocratic progeny is supposed to play in society.
And networking.
Badenov
SOC-12
The thing about 'The right schools' is no one cares what your GPA was. You can brag about your 4.0 from Harvard or Yale, but all the ringknockers care about is that you graduated.
That said, there are absolutely various circles in which your Edu level, not just school, but highest degree attained, is the status-determining criteria. Generally these are academic and research posts and not necessarily applicable to outside society.
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It would be more like Nobel Prize guy that invented the jump drive is invited to the Mars estate soirée with people with similar education rank levels, but he is doing engineering and they aren’t- or maybe something like a better tax code.
I always treated EDU as 2 years per point. A baron C level would be equivalent to bachelors 8 + Masters 1 to 9 + perhaps a couple PhDs to C.
Course we don’t image nobles as being that accomplished, so yes their studies would skew more to how do we keep in power topics. History, economics, psychology, law, and that’s all happening in the noble private schools. Sure the hypnoRNA force feeding technology of so much data causes a few losses, but hey omelettes require cracked eggs.
I have no problem with the idea of actual merit in my upper crust so the above works for me. If one prefers the classic hard ceiling class structure of the 3I and its sci-fi inspiration, perhaps retain SOC as is and EDU is a determining factor in who gets actual noble positions vs fallback extra noble on retainer.
Badenov
SOC-12
This is circling back around to the high Soc for alternate reasons such as described below. You can write up an alternate Soc list for academic prestige.
High Soc for various fields is entirely campaign specific, and you can be as rich as you like, and control as many lives as you like, but I think in vanilla Traveller, a Soc C Baron will absoltely have rank on any CEO, however Mega their corp, or planetary official, however high in any extraplanetary issue. And a Soc A courtier may hold themselves above the hoi polloi no matter their wealth or planetary position, but that'd almost certainly never come up unless it was about who got served first at a state dinner.
That said, RL Western egalitarianism seems to be driving a lot of this alternate Soc stuff. Noble positions rarely require advanced education, though many nobles accumulate honorary degrees. Choice of which noble gets which job seems more the realm of politics and favoritism and favors than any sort of merit. If this were a merit-based society, so much would be different I don't know where to start.
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