What is the smallest non-Imperial hull size that can carry a spinal mount?

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

Has anyone worked out away to determine the smallest size hull that can carry a spinal mount, other than a 20,000 ton cruiser per Supplement 9 page 9?

Thanks for any help that can be provided.

 

[robject]

I thought I could fit a spine into a 10,000 ton hull?

 

[aramis]

Yes:
Pick TL first.
Pick Spinal Mount
Figure the size of the PP needed to power the spinal
Add 0.04*PPTonnage for Engineers
Add 0.02*SpMtTonnage for Gunners
add computer (max for TL - anything less is losing)
Add 36Td for the 11 person command section's quarters
subtotal this.
Multiply the subtotal by a drive factor for MD and JD

	J0	J1	J2	J3	J4	J5	J6
M0	1.021	1.164	1.336	1.567	1.894	2.395	3.256
M1	1.043	1.193	1.374	1.62	1.972	2.521	3.492
M2	1.078	1.239	1.436	1.706	2.101	2.736	3.919
M3	1.116	1.289	1.503	1.802	2.249	2.991	4.465
M4	1.156	1.343	1.577	1.909	2.418	3.299	5.187
M5	1.199	1.402	1.658	2.03	2.616	3.677	6.189
M6	1.246	1.466	1.749	2.167	2.848	4.153	7.669

This adds the MD, JD, Bridge, and engineers.


EG:
TL 15 J6 M6
1000 Spinal J Meson is 1000 Td, 900 EP
_900 TL15 900 EP
__36 PP crew
__20 Gunners
__36 Fixed Crew
__13 Model 9
2005 subtotal
x7.669
15376.34

Rounding up, 15377Td.

 

[aramis]

I thought I could fit a spine into a 10,000 ton hull?

If it's in a slow enough hull, yes.
A TL15 J Meson M1 J1 works out to be
2005*1.193=2392 Td

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello robject,

I thought I could fit a spine into a 10,000 ton hull?

I'm cobbling together a spreadsheet to see what the smallest hull might be so far I've included hull, bridge, computer, j-drive + fuel, m-drive, power plant + fuel, and options for selecting either the PA or MG spinal mount.

With those components A TL 11 11,000 ton hull with J-2, M-5, PP-6 with a 660 EP output and a Model 4 computer I can mount Type D PA spinal mount.

Of course I haven't gotten around to figuring out the crew which adds the tons needed for the staterooms they need to sleep in.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[snrdg082102]

Thanks aramis,

As usual I didn't check to see if there were additional post before replying.

Yes:
Pick TL first.
Pick Spinal Mount
Figure the size of the PP needed to power the spinal
Add 0.04*PPTonnage for Engineers
Add 0.02*SpMtTonnage for Gunners
add computer (max for TL - anything less is losing)
Add 36Td for the 11 person command section's quarters
subtotal this.
Multiply the subtotal by a drive factor for MD and JD

	J0	J1	J2	J3	J4	J5	J6
M0	1.021	1.164	1.336	1.567	1.894	2.395	3.256
M1	1.043	1.193	1.374	1.62	1.972	2.521	3.492
M2	1.078	1.239	1.436	1.706	2.101	2.736	3.919
M3	1.116	1.289	1.503	1.802	2.249	2.991	4.465
M4	1.156	1.343	1.577	1.909	2.418	3.299	5.187
M5	1.199	1.402	1.658	2.03	2.616	3.677	6.189
M6	1.246	1.466	1.749	2.167	2.848	4.153	7.669

This adds the MD, JD, Bridge, and engineers.


EG:
TL 15 J6 M6
1000 Spinal J Meson is 1000 Td, 900 EP
_900 TL15 900 EP
__36 PP crew
__20 Gunners
__36 Fixed Crew
__13 Model 9
2005 subtotal
x7.669
15376.34

Rounding up, 15377Td.

I'll have to run through the process to ensure I have an understanding of how it works.

Thanks again for the process.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello aramis,

I have cobbled together a spreadsheet that wonder of wonders actually came up with the same answer. There are a couple of questions.

Yes:
Pick TL first.
Pick Spinal Mount
Figure the size of the PP needed to power the spinal
Add 0.04*PPTonnage for Engineers
Add 0.02*SpMtTonnage for Gunners
add computer (max for TL - anything less is losing)
Add 36Td for the 11 person command section's quarters
subtotal this.
Multiply the subtotal by a drive factor for MD and JD

	J0	J1	J2	J3	J4	J5	J6
M0	1.021	1.164	1.336	1.567	1.894	2.395	3.256
M1	1.043	1.193	1.374	1.62	1.972	2.521	3.492
M2	1.078	1.239	1.436	1.706	2.101	2.736	3.919
M3	1.116	1.289	1.503	1.802	2.249	2.991	4.465
M4	1.156	1.343	1.577	1.909	2.418	3.299	5.187
M5	1.199	1.402	1.658	2.03	2.616	3.677	6.189
M6	1.246	1.466	1.749	2.167	2.848	4.153	7.669

This adds the MD, JD, Bridge, and engineers.


EG:
TL 15 J6 M6
1000 Spinal J Meson is 1000 Td, 900 EP
_900 TL15 900 EP
__36 PP crew
__20 Gunners
__36 Fixed Crew
__13 Model 9
2005 subtotal
x7.669
15376.34

Rounding up, 15377Td.

1. Shouldn't the computer's 12 EP be added to _900 TL15 900 EP in to the process?

2. Wouldn't the quarters required by service crew have an impact on the hull and be added to the _Fixed Crew (Command) Td?

3. Wouldn't the J-Drive Fuel and PP fuel Td need to included in the calculations?

Part of the reason for the questions 2 and 3 came about after I finished cobbling together the spreadsheet I started with.

Would you like a copy of the spreadsheets which is in Excel 2010 format and I might be able to convert them over to OpenOffice.

 

[snrdg082102]

Thanks aramis for the quick method for determining the smallest hull to fit a specific spinal mount/main weapon.

The reason for my question is that I'm trying to provide a message in a new draft of my design spreadsheet allowing me to skip trying to install a spinal mount in hull that is too small.

Of course the starting point for any hull is the spinal mount's tonnage which is the minimum.

Using aramis' method I'm guess that the rule of thumb is the minimum hull tons is roughly 2 to 3 times the spinal mount tons.

Would that be a fair estimate?

 

[McPerth]

Using aramis' method I'm guess that the rule of thumb is the minimum hull tons is roughly 2 to 3 times the spinal mount tons.

Would that be a fair estimate?

I've not run the numbers, but I guess that would depend also on TL and other specifications you need for your hull (as drives, armor, etc...).

Remember that the PP size (quite important in the spinal armed ships) is TL dependent, and that may make a huge difference (see that in the example given by Aramis, the PP needed 900 ton at TL 15, that would be doubled at TL13-14, and tripled at TL 9-12, though few spinals can you mount at those TLs).

And in the thread name you talked about non-imperial, so I guess it will not be TL15, as few other political entities are so high-tech...

 

[aramis]

The way that table was put together:
100%/{100%-(2%+{(MD%+JD%)x1.04}+JF%+Ar%)}

The 2% is the bridge
the x1.04 is to add the engineers for the MD & JD. (This is double occupancy)
I didn't specify earlier, but I used Armor Factor none.

Yes, my original post forgot to add PP Fuel, and yes, PP should add the PP should be increased for the computer.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello McPerth,

I've not run the numbers, but I guess that would depend also on TL and other specifications you need for your hull (as drives, armor, etc...).

Remember that the PP size (quite important in the spinal armed ships) is TL dependent, and that may make a huge difference (see that in the example given by Aramis, the PP needed 900 ton at TL 15, that would be doubled at TL13-14, and tripled at TL 9-12, though few spinals can you mount at those TLs).

And in the thread name you talked about non-imperial, so I guess it will not be TL15, as few other political entities are so high-tech...

What I'm going for with trying to figure out a rule of thumb what is a good starting point for a hull I want to install a spinal mount in. As an example: A TL 11 Type D PA Spinal Mount sets the base hull as 4,000 tons and a minimum of PP EP output of 600.

Should I start with a hull 2 or 3 times the spinal mounts tonnage which is 8,000 ton hull or 12,000 ton hull for the Type D PA spinal mount?

Running aramis' quick size calculator suggest that the hull is 6,814 tons comparing that with the one I cobbled together the minimum hull tons is 10,010 tons. A hull three time the size of the PA type D spinal mount tons appears to have room to spare.

Of course the two to three times the hull size goes out the airlock with the smaller sized meson guns now that I've had some time to tinker with aramis' and my spreadsheet.

IIRC correctly within the borders of the Third Imperium TL 15 toys are being played with by the Imperial Navy and maybe the Imperial Ground forces who are rather reluctant to share them with other Imperial and aligned states.

Non-Imperials may have developed a few TL 15 toys that they are keeping to themselves. So if the Imperium come knocking uninvited on the non-Imperials door the Imperials get a surprise.

Thanks for adding your thoughts McPerth.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello aramis,

Thank you for the clarification

The way that table was put together:
100%/{100%-(2%+{(MD%+JD%)x1.04}+JF%+Ar%)}

The 2% is the bridge
the x1.04 is to add the engineers for the MD & JD. (This is double occupancy)
I didn't specify earlier, but I used Armor Factor none.

Yes, my original post forgot to add PP Fuel, and yes, PP should add the PP should be increased for the computer.

This is good that I asked questions that showed I was paying attention, since I am more often than out in left field.

Thank you for sharing your work with me.

 

[aramis]

To explain it in english: Take the sum of the percentage based components, and find the ratio of 1/(1-SumOfPercentages), and then multiply the non-percentages by the ratio.

It's basic algebra, but it's not obvious algebra to many.

Note that the HG required rounding may make a few tons difference. It's an approximation.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening PDT aramis,

To explain it in english: Take the sum of the percentage based components, and find the ratio of 1/(1-SumOfPercentages), and then multiply the non-percentages by the ratio.

It's basic algebra, but it's not obvious algebra to many.

Note that the HG required rounding may make a few tons difference. It's an approximation.

The approximation is what I was looking for which I've been using to figure out a rule of thumb besides the power plant not providing enough EP or the obvious that a hull of 5,500 tons is effectively the bore for a TL 8 PA spinal mount.

Back to the drawing board on figuring out a rule of thumb.

Thanks again for the methodology.