What is Traveller?

[rust]

(...)

[*]Military Conscription of unemployed 18yo sophonts is normative[/list]

Those are encoded into CT, MT, T4, and T20, and just as strongly, into MGT.

This one is not really a part of MGT. A character that was unable to join any
other career has the choice of either to be drafted or to become a Drifter,
and if he accepts to be drafted he can be drafted into the Merchant or the
Agent / Law Enforcement career, which are not exactly military careers.

 

[rancke]

This one is not really a part of MGT. A character that was unable to join any other career has the choice of either to be drafted or to become a Drifter, and if he accepts to be drafted he can be drafted into the Merchant or the Agent / Law Enforcement career, which are not exactly military careers.

I don't know about MGT, but in previous versions it's quite obvious (to me, anyway) that the so-called draft is a game artifact, not a reflection of the underlying "reality". One only has to contemplate the implications of interpreting the draft literally to realize how untenable such an assumption is.


Hans

 

[tbeard1999]

Punish you? For disagreeing with me? Not at all, despite the all-too-human temptation to do so. I'm trying to lay out definitions, so that everyone on this forum is on the same page. Mongoose Traveller, as written, is NOT truly generic in the same way that GURPS. It is too heavily influenced by the technological assumptions of the OTU to be. However, it can be used to provide the underpinnings for a number of settings. Each setting can/will/should modify the tech assumptions, and anything else it needs to.

In this sense, Mongoose Traveller is similar to the GDW "house system" of the late 80s, which was used to power Twilight 2000, Traveller: New Era, Dark Conspiracy, and Cadillacs and Dinosaurs. Not exactly generic, but very... flexible.

What I'm trying to do is stop the arguments over semantics by providing definitions within the context of Mongoose Traveller. These definitions, in general, will be those of Mongoose itself, to apply to discussions here.

Mogoose Traveller is the rules, not the setting.

With all due respect, I don't think it is either necessary or particularly helpful for you to define terms like "Traveller" by fiat. As noted in my other posts, your definition seems at least somewhat at odds with the MGT core rules. If MGT's core rules are vague and somehwat schizophrenic about what "Traveller" is, then the issue is hardly settled. I think that debate will do far more to help Mongoose settle the issue than COTI moderator fiat will.

I'd also note that the chief complaints about MGT fall into 4 categories, all of which seem reasonable (most of the time) to me.

1. MGT deviates from the OTU. I think that this is a legitimate line of criticism if the criticism accurately represents what the work in question says and if the work is:

a. An explicit OTU work (like the upcoming Aslan supplement).

b. Arguably an OTU work (i.e., the book has a title identical to a work that was originally an OTU work, or in some other way would lead a reasonable person to conclude that it is an OTU supplement, or that Mongoose has not explicitely excluded from OTU canon). In such a case, I think that Mongoose has an obligation to clarify its status as canon.

An invalid line of criticism would be on a work that is clearly not intended to be part of OTU canon (either explicitly stated as such by Mongoose or obvious to any reasonable observer -- Hammer's Slammers for instance). In that case, such criticism can be rebutted by simply pointing out that the work is not set in the OTU. If someones ignores that rebuttal and continues to complain, then I agree that he's being a jerk. No special forum rules are needed for this, IMHO. Anytime someone intentionally ignores a relevant point he is acting in bad faith. If he ignores this point twice, I think that the moderators should rebuke him.

2. MGT deviates from the technological and social assumptions that has been part of Traveller all along (such as allowing light sabers, or shuriken catapults, or proposing FTL drives that are different from the Traveller jump drives, etc.). This seems to me to also be a legitimate line of criticism, unless the items in question are clearly marked as optional or non-Traveller, etc.

3. MGT is mechanically defective or unsavory in some way. A fair line of criticism, seems to me, unless the critic is intentionally misrepresenting the mechanics in question.

4. Mongoose as a company does not respect Traveller. I'm conflicted on this, frankly. On the one hand, I think it's fair to infer reasonable motives from actions. On the other hand, mistakes happen and normal business pressures require compromises to be made on quality. If a company is to survive, it simply must get products out the door. So I personally will cut them a lot of slack and I wish others would as well. But beyond some point, I think it is reasonable to complain about shoddy research and lack of knowledge. In addition, Mongoose has demonstrated to its credit that it will listen to reasonable criticism and make changes in response. So I think it would be a bad idea to quash criticism about shoddy research. But there's no need to be a jerk about it either.

The problem, as always, is that it is not always clear when criticism has crossed the line. If you are going to start moderating this forum with a heavier hand, I strongly suggest you use warnings rather than infractions and that, if possible, you tell the poster what he did wrong. If the true goal is to reform someone's behavior, then he needs to understand what he did wrong.

I'd also note that despite the complaints about the tone here, this forum has apparently helped to motivate some serious and highly desirable changes in Mongoose's policies. Consider the effect that your intended moderating style would have had on those debates.

 

[rust]

This seems to me to also be a legitimate line of criticism, unless the items in question are clearly marked as optional or non-Traveller, etc.

Clearly marking any part of Mongoose Traveller as "non-Traveller" would seem
rather strange to me.

 

[tbeard1999]

Clearly marking any part of Mongoose Traveller as "non-Traveller" would seem
rather strange to me.

Agreed. But that kinda highlights the fact that Mongoose itself has not really done a thorough job of defining its product, doesn't it?

Or perhaps a better way of saying it is that Mongoose appears to have several mutually exclusive definitions of Traveller.

If so, then the issue is a legitimate topic of debate in my opinion and moderator fiat is unhelpful on this point.

 

[rust]

Or perhaps a better way of saying it is that Mongoose appears to have several mutually exclusive definitions of Traveller.

I am not certain about this, to me the text on their website seems quite
clear:

"Based on the Classic Traveller rules set, this book has been streamlined
for modern roleplaying, and yet still retains that unmistakable Traveller aura.
With complete rules for character and world creation, spaceships, encounters
and trading, it is your gateway into new universes.

The Traveller Main Rulebook is the cornerstone of all your Traveller games, to
be expanded upon with core supplements such as Mercenary and High Guard,
or used with different settings like Strontium Dog, Hammers Slammers, Judge
Dredd and, of course, the Original Traveller Universe."

I read it as:

- MGT is based upon CT (I would agree, and you have listed the important points in a previous post),

- MGT is a rules set,

- MGT is intended to be used for different science fiction universes,

- the OTU is one of the MGT settings.

I am not sure what else Mongoose would have to define to make this a clear
definition of their intentions for Mongoose Traveller.

Edit.: Oops, sorry - it was Aramis who listed the points, my bad.

 

[tbeard1999]

I am not certain about this, to me the text on their website seems quite
clear:

"Based on the Classic Traveller rules set, this book has been streamlined
for modern roleplaying, and yet still retains that unmistakable Traveller aura.
With complete rules for character and world creation, spaceships, encounters
and trading, it is your gateway into new universes.

The Traveller Main Rulebook is the cornerstone of all your Traveller games, to
be expanded upon with core supplements such as Mercenary and High Guard,
or used with different settings like Strontium Dog, Hammers Slammers, Judge
Dredd and, of course, the Original Traveller Universe."

I read it as:

- MGT is based upon CT (I would agree, and you have listed the important points in a previous post),

- MGT is a rules set,

- MGT is intended to be used for different science fiction universes,

- the OTU is one of the MGT settings.

I am not sure what else Mongoose would have to define to make this a clear
definition of their intentions for Mongoose Traveller.

Edit.: Oops, sorry - it was Aramis who listed the points, my bad.

I don't think that the last item is the most reasonable inference. Note what the text actually says:

"The Traveller Main Rulebook is the cornerstone of all your Traveller games, to
be expanded upon with core supplements such as Mercenary and High Guard,
or used with different settings like Strontium Dog..."

"Different" settings like Strontium Dog.

I think a more reasonable inference is that the OTU is the default setting in the MGT rules, but the game can be played with different universes like Strontium Dog, Hammer's Slammers, etc. In other words, I think that this text means that a reasonable player is entitled to assume that what he's reading is applicable to the OTU, unless the product explicitely states otherwise.

I'd add that your interpretation of the website text is at odds with the opening paragraphs of the Core Rules. These paragraphs refer to the Imperium and other OTU tropes.

I still think that Mongoose is sending mixed signals as to what it thinks Traveller is.

 

[atpollard]

It seems a pointless folly to discuss Mongoose Traveller (the rules set) or The Third Imperium (the setting) using definitions of Traveller and OTU different from those clearly articulated by MongooseMatt as being the Mongoose working definitions of those terms.

[Obviously I mean in the Mongoose Traveller section of COTI].

The statements in the core book which appear to contradict these "straight from the horse's mouth" definitions would be best discussed in the context of being eratta or unclearly worded rather than proof that MongooseMatt does not really understand how Mongoose defines Traveller and the OTU.

Colin simply repeated the Mongoose definitions.

 

[rust]

I think a more reasonable inference is that the OTU is the default setting in the MGT rules, but the game can be played with different universes like Strontium Dog, Hammer's Slammers, etc.

No problem with this. I think it can be interpreted both ways, because of the
"... it is your gateway into new universes" in the previous paragraph, but I
see the Third Imperium as the default setting myself.

I'd add that your interpretation of the website text is at odds with the opening paragraphs of the Core Rules. These paragraphs refer to the Imperium and other OTU tropes.

In the German version, the only one I have, the text starts with the Third Im-
perium and then adds the possibility to use other settings, too, so this also
would point towards the Third Imperium as the default setting.

I fear the next definition problem would be to determine the precise meaning
of "default setting" and the relations between a "default setting" and other
settings, but this seems to be a can of worms to me.

For example, the default setting of D&D is the World of Greyhawk, but I do
not know a single D&D player who uses that setting (somehow the Forgotten
Realms are the fashion here), and the default setting of GURPS is the Infinite
Worlds setting, which I also have not yet seen played much.
On the other hand, Runequest's default setting Glorantha indeed is the most
commonly used setting, at least in my experience, like the 1920s indeed are
the most commonly used Call of Cthulhu setting.

 

[tbeard1999]

It seems a pointless folly to discuss Mongoose Traveller (the rules set) or The Third Imperium (the setting) using definitions of Traveller and OTU different from those clearly articulated by MongooseMatt as being the Mongoose working definitions of those terms.

And where are they so "clearly articulated" by Matt?

While I'd agree that Mongoose can and should clearly define what it means by "Traveller", I also think that definition should appear in the games themselves and the advertising. Particularly if this definition seriously differs from how most Traveller fans have defined "Traveller" over the years.

So *if* Mongoose has a significantly different view of Traveller than most of the old time Traveller fans, and *if* if fails to reflect this in the products and marketing materials, then I think it is perfectly reasonable to take them to task.

The fact that the products and advertising aren't consistent with Matt's purported definition strongly suggests to me that Mongoose's position has evolved...and is probably still be evolving. I have no problem with that. But since debate can drive these kinds of improvements in a product, I am opposed to Colin (or anyone else) imposing a definition by fiat that isn't even reflected in the actual products.

 

[rust]

... I am opposed to Colin (or anyone else) imposing a definition by fiat that isn't even reflected in the actual products.

The way I understood Colin, he just wanted to remind the users that it would
be prudent to discuss Mongoose Traveller within the framework of Mongoose
Traveller, without introducing elements from discussions about earlier versions
- I did not read it as any kind of moderator's fiat, and it was not written in
red.

 

[tbeard1999]

However, at this point, for the purposes of discussing the Mongoose version, Traveller means the Rules, not the OTU. It may have meant, and could still mean, something different for earlier versions. I am not going to argue that. At this time, for these discussions, that is besides the point.

I'm not sure what this distinction actually means for discussions here.

For instance, isn't it legitimate to criticize a product that is explicitely part of the OTU -- such as the Aslan supplement or the Spinward Marches supplement -- for deviations from OTU canon? What about material that is not explicitely identified as non-OTU material and that would cause a reasonable Traveller fan to assume it was OTU material?

And isn't it legitimate to criticize products that are labeled "Traveller" for deviations from the technological and social assumptions that have historically undergirded Traveller rules? Assuming of course, that the criticism are otherwise fair (i.e., the material wasn't explicitely identified as such [like alternate FTL drives in eth MGT Core Rules] or obviously from a different setting (like Hammers Slammers)?

 

[tbeard1999]

The way I understood Colin, he just wanted to remind the users that it would be prudent to discuss Mongoose Traveller within the framework of Mongoose
Traveller, without introducing elements from discussions about earlier versions
- I did not read it as any kind of moderator's fiat, and it was not written in
red.

"You may not like it, but there it is, and that's the way it is."

<shrug>

Sounds like moderator fiat to me.

 

[rust]

I'm not sure what this distinction actually means for discussions here.

I read it as "If you mean the rules, write Traveller, if you mean the setting,
write OTU".

 

[Gallowglacht]

For the love of god Ty, please, stop.

It's a definition of the word in the hopes that it will stop people argueing past each other. It is not a cosmic redefinition of the Platonic ideal of Traveller. It's a social contract, not a boot stamping on a human face forever.

It's not perfect but it seems good enough for most people who have commented in the thread so far. No body can force you to accept it, but you know what you could choose to just let it slide so people can go back to enjoying the forum. Just let it slide. Is it really the end of the world if people new to Traveller don't get to see the same version you saw. Or if Mongoose change something/make a mistake?

Even if everything you have said is true, so what? Is it really worth the agrivation for everyone. Is it really worth overanalysing what the Moderator said. He clearly meant to keep the peace and most people saw it that way and are willing to accept it. Please, let it slide. Most of us are sick of the atmosphere in the MGT forum. Colin is trying to change that and an agreed definition and some ground rules are a good way of going about that.

Instead of seeing it in terms of 1984, how about looking on it as a comprimise in the hopes of peace and unity and a bit of civility? It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be right. It doesn't even have to be good, it just has to be good enough.

What do you say Ty? Please? Be the bigger man, suck it up take one for the team, note your objection and let it drop. Not because you are forced to, but to make this a better place to be.

 

[tbeard1999]

For the love of god Ty, please, stop.

No.

It's a definition of the word in the hopes that it will stop people argueing past each other. It is not a cosmic redefinition of the Platonic ideal of Traveller. It's a social contract, not a boot stamping on a human face forever.

IMHO it's a questionable definition apparently imposed by moderator fiat. I say apparently because Colin hasn't confirmed this interpretation. So I could be way off base.

But if I'm right, then in my opinion it's an unwise moderator interference with legitimate discussion. So if it's all the same to you, I'll continue to express my opinion on the matter.

Is it really the end of the world if people new to Traveller don't get to see the same version you saw.

???

Not the point, really.

Or if Mongoose change something/make a mistake?

Again, not my point.

Nor is this a reasonable interpretation of what I'm saying. So please respond to my actual statements.

What do you say Ty? Please? Be the bigger man, suck it up take one for the team, note your objection and let it drop. Not because you are forced to, but to make this a better place to be.

Since I do not agree that this rule -- if I am reading it correctly -- will make this a better place to be, I must decline. But feel free to take your own advice...

Less criticism of MGT does not necessarily make this a better place IMHO. More reasonable criticism does make it a better place. But this definition does not appear to do that, for reasons that I've already stated.

 

[tbeard1999]

I read it as "If you mean the rules, write Traveller, if you mean the setting,
write OTU".

That would be fine with me. I always think it's a good idea to define one's terms, especially if reasonable people can disagree as to the definition. Not sure that a special rule for MGT is desirable, but it isn't a big deal.

 

[kafka47]

I wonder if we approach this from another track...Time has changed our notions of what is the OTU. For instance, I am a long time Greyhawk & AD+D 1e, now I could mourn the loss of Gygax's guiding hand in Greyhawk which TSR proceeded to produce some horrible adventures and even worse novels before producing something of interest then reverting to what is Greyhawk today which in no way reflects Gary's world. Or I could take heart from some of the interesting innovations that have been produced incorporate them into my sensibility (use something like ORSIC as a base for new players) and ignore whatever Wizards and current fanboys produce that is not aligned with my vision.

I agree, with you, Bill that it is bad that Mongoose scr*wed up when in the span of several months produced two books that contradicted each other? But, is that the first time that has happened in Traveller history (save do not measure things in months but years)?

Sloppy editing was always a fear when we heard that Mongoose was getting a franchaise but just as I don't like GURPS Zhodani or Behind the Claw because of sloppy editing or abnormalities like the Sydites or Ursa from T20 does that mean I should diss the whole line. I have already suggested that they appoint a council of guardians that could to a quick cannon check and presumably people are buying the stuff (check against their previous products). What more can we do? Fandom does have a say or at least a stake in producing good products that will withstand the test of time. But, equally, we have leave it for the companies to even change fundamental preciepts in the effort of creating an interesting game. And, it is then falls upon us the Referee to say what rules or setting details we incorporate and those that we exclude to our players. Canon should never be immutable.

 

[Colin]

<facepalm>

One of the things that happens in these Mongoose forums is that people spend a great deal of time arguing past each other.

Mongoose Traveller is a new version of Traveller, and Mongoose is choosing to take things in a different direction. Mongoose Traveller isn't just about the Official (or Original) Traveller universe. It is used as the core rules for a number of settings, not just the OTU.

One could argue what Traveller should mean. I'm trying to define what it is, at least for the purposes of discussing the Mongoose version and moving past arguments on semantics.

For Mongoose Publishing, Traveller is a set of Core Rules (influenced by the tech assumptions of OTU, sure) that is used to power a number of settings. Call it generic, call it a core rules set, call it a house rules set. It doesn't much matter. The net effect is the same.

If I wanted to impose a definition by fiat, I would have closed the thread immediately. I want some sort of definition to be largely accepted, so that the community can move on. That's why I'm leaving the discussion open for the time being.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I don't think you can reasonably imply that MGT -- as currently written -- is a truly generic system

Ah ha! _Your_ copy might not look generic, but our super-secret-designer's copy does.

You can go a long way on just the core book, I'll maintain, but it will be other settings released by us (and others, perhaps!) that will unshackle Traveller and make it generic.