What is Traveller?

[tbeard1999]

As a side note, I do find it amusing that we're damned if we do and damned if we don't when it comes to moderating. Just a few days ago it was implied that I and CotI are biased against Mongoose, and now it's implied that we might be too biased towards Mongoose!

BTW, tBeard, that last statement was based on your comments, but I'm ribbing you more than anything.

Hell, it's a strange world these days.

It's been months since I said anything really bad about MGT. In fact, some of my posts are coming perilously close to being downright complimentary. (Let's not mention how I all but gushed about the Central Supply Catalogue...)

I think I'm losing my groove or something...

 

[rust]

I think I'm losing my groove or something...

No, Brother Tbeard1999, it is just that thou art finally seeing the light ... :rofl:

 

[tbeard1999]

No, Brother Tbeard1999, it is just that thou art finally seeing the light ... :rofl:

Oh that's just great.

 

[flykiller]

I'd say Traveller is a set of technological and sociological assumptions underlying the rules ... Traveller's 'four notes" include jump drive, gravitics, no FTL comms outside of shipping, cheap fusion, limited personal energy weapons, no or very little transhumanism, and the other examples already posted. AS long as you can find those "notes" in a setting, you're playing Traveller.

should these traveller "notes" be considered rules, or setting? fans here can argue for months on end about what a proper set of gun combat rules should be, but things like jump and gravitics seem arbitrary - either they exist or they don't. perhaps mgt could indeed have explicit generic rules, with explicit parameters for various explicit milieu. but one wonders if GURPS hasn't already done this.

"It's your game folks, play it however YOU want to play it!"

for the fans not only is this a good idea, it is inevitable. the publishers, however, have to be able to say what it is that they're selling. there seems to be a fundamental disconnect.

 

[captainjack]

Oh that's just great.

Yes. Yes it is.........

 

[aramis]

Hans:
T2300 and TNE both suffered the same issue, and similar fan reactions...

Both of them take and have very different setting assumptions from CT/MT, AND have very different rules systems, at the same time.

If TNE had used the same mechanical engine as MT, it would have been received very differently (and quite possibly with less hostility). Likewise, if they hadn't tried to impose the New Era, and had instead simply made it hard times with the new rules, that too would have been an easier transition. Heck, in terms of setting assumptions, removal of T-plates broke the profitability of the "classic" small merchantmen by increasing times to/from jump point from about 1/2 a day to about 3 days... and thus the jump cycle went from "6 days down, 8 days travel" to "5 days down, 13 days travel"... from 2 jumps per month to 1.5. Plus it made even 0.1G viable for taking off from any terrestrial planet generatable with the system.

2300 was likewise a radically different setting and a radically different ruleset (It really appears to be TNE's Great-Grandaddy, and CT's grandchild via some unpublished intermediate stage).

Heck, the TNE->T4, CT->T4, and MT->T4 jump likewise suffered some hate because the core wasn't capable of running the CT/MT classic/rebellion eras mechanically... it only covered to TL12 in the core. The setting revision to a TL12 limited era coupled to a ruleset nerfed to TL12 was a major issue for a bunch of people. FF&S2 being "broken" (by printing error) didn't help anything.

Mongoose's decision to be mechanically close to CT/MT is good for backwards compatibility, and thus maintains the value of older materials and allows the new stuff to be used with the old games.

But their decision to "revise" the OTU at the same time is evocative of the TNE and 2300 issues.

Heck, CT->MT had some issues... but at least there, most people familiar with CT Bks 1-7, Striker, and Supps 8 & 11 could see where it all came from. The Rebellion didn't get hard-coded into CGen, either... unlike TNE.

Hunter's decision to use "just post SRW" was dicey... but it was pulled off by being close enough time and tech wise, and far enough distance wise, to make the setting differences work, and since it was targeted for a group wanting a "D20 flavor"....

GT would have worked just as well if it were set in 1101... perhaps better, even... because the tech and setting are in the classic mode, and it's aimed at GURPS fans. It changed only one element.

I've noticed often in other games: Change the Setting OR change the system with an edition change, or you get angry fans.

 

[Whipsnade]

should these traveller "notes" be considered rules, or setting?

Fly,

They're neither the rules or the setting and, while they influence both, they're present well beforehand. Making matter even fuzzier, the notes can be tweaked in "tone" or "scale". Depending on how many other notes are present, some of the noted can even go missing. This is because the individual notes are only important in the context of the "theme" they produce.

Look at the jump drive "note". It refers to a certain type of basic FTL drive that is distinct from warp drive, stargates, and all the others. We can play with jump drive "tones" like fuel requirements, ship sizes, ranges, speeds, and the like and still have something as recognizable as jump drive. However, if we change the FTL mechanism too much, the jump drive note is no longer a jump drive note, the theme is lost, and we're no longer playing Traveller.

It's a poor analogy I'll admit, but it's the best I've been able to come up with to date.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Murdoc]

should these traveller "notes" be considered rules, or setting?

I'd say neither, since both the rules (as seen in the many variations since CT such as MT, TNE, T20, etc.) and the setting can change. I think that it would be useful to these discussions if we considered the "essence" of Traveller to be something else entirely separate from the rules or setting. At least that is what makes the most sense to me. Example:

Traveller: jump drive, no ftl comms, psionics, etc.
Rules: CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, T5, GT, MgT, etc.
Setting: OTU, B5, etc.

 

[aramis]

Ty, Rust, Jack: Play nice.... :nonono:

 

[rust]

Ty, Rust, Jack: Play nice.... :nonono:

Sorry, I thought I did, and it was an obvious joke.

If not, or if it was too bad a joke, I of course apologize.

 

[Whipsnade]

I think that it would be useful to these discussions if we considered the "essence" of Traveller to be something else entirely separate from the rules or setting.

Murdoc,

"Essence" is a good suggestion.

Setting: OTU, B5, etc.

B5 has FTL comms, as does the Slammers universe as described in Drake's novels and stories, thus they cannot be Traveller no matter what Mongoose may choose to believe. However, that doesn't mean those settings can't use Traveller-derived rules in the same way my non-Traveller Pulp/Chaco War setting used Traveller rules.

If Mongoose had come up with something akin to SJGame's "Powered By GURPS" labeling, we'd be spared a lot of this confusion. B5: Powered By Traveller is far more descriptive and accurate than B5: Traveller.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Murdoc]

B5 has FTL comms, as does the Slammers universe as described in Drake's novels and stories, thus they cannot be Traveller no matter what Mongoose may choose to believe. However, that doesn't mean those settings can't use Traveller-derived rules in the same way my non-Traveller Pulp/Chaco War setting used Traveller rules.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I was wondering if I should say something about that when I included it, but I thought I'd wait and see if anyone else wanted to point it out. I have my own examples of this sort of thing as well, like when I made a Matrix game using White Wolf's Vampire rules. It sure wasn't "Vampire", but the basic mechanics of dice rolling were the same. Heck, even WW does that: When they first made the Werewolf rpg, they didn't call it Vampire either, even though it was using the same rules and basically in the same universe. The assumptions or "essence" was different, so they gave it a new name.

If Mongoose had come up with something akin to SJGame's "Powered By GURPS" labeling, we'd be spared a lot of this confusion. B5: Powered By Traveller is far more descriptive and accurate than B5: Traveller.

Yeah, I see what you mean. That title makes me think of the two universes suddenly colliding, and my scout/courior just jumped into Babylon 5 space. Reminds me of some crazy ideas I had year ago, like the one where the Battlestar Galactica finally finds Earth, but it's the capital of the Solomani Confederation!

 

[Whipsnade]

Reminds me of some crazy ideas I had year ago, like the one where the Battlestar Galactica finally finds Earth, but it's the capital of the Solomani Confederation!

Murdoc,

OH. MY. GOD.

That certainly would have been better than the ending they filmed!


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Reminds me of some crazy ideas I had year ago, like the one where the Battlestar Galactica finally finds Earth, but it's the capital of the Solomani Confederation!

You could actually do that in the Imperium Setting. Sort of. The Galactica people would be descendants of a Long Range Mission that went rimwards. The Cylons would be the tricky part -- you'd either need for <The 12 Colonies> to have reached TL17 or so (with all the prospective disruption of the TU due to Solomani reverse-engineering shot-up <Cylons>) or... I'm not sure what. A flesh-and-blood race bent on destroying the <Galacticans>?

Anyway, the refugee fleet and the pursuers wouldn't get anywhere near Terra, but you could have all sorts of fun and games with them showing up near the rimward Confederation border.


Hans

 

[Murdoc]

The Cylons would be the tricky part -- you'd either need for <The 12 Colonies> to have reached TL17 or so

Not necessarily. In the original version, the Cylons were created by an alien race, also called Cylons. Actually IIRC they were some weird empire of many races, but it's been a while since I've gone through my boxed DVD set.

Anyway, the refugee fleet and the pursuers wouldn't get anywhere near Terra, but you could have all sorts of fun and games with them showing up near the rimward Confederation border.

True. Or any number of other variations (The Cylons ere created by Hivers...:rofl

That certainly would have been better than the ending they filmed!

I agree, more fun yes, but that would have needed more story afterwards. They had to do something dumb like they did in order to put an end to it. But this is getting a little off topic so I should probably quit now.

 

[Britti_Lover]

I DO hope Matt and Colin are reading this.

Traveller had many firsts, one of those was its production values were thru the roof when it was origonally published.

The typesetting was professional, what little artwork it had was very high quality and very well done.

Origonal D & D stuff was often hand-made maps and typewriter produced narrative.

And Traveller was origonally completely generic - you could play any Science Fiction you have seen or read with it - or make up your own science fiction background.

MegaTraveller had very poor artwork and so did many other versions of the game that followed.

However, MegaTraveller did have a player's manual and a referee manual.

And player's bought the player's manual too.

So - what do we want:

1) Very high quality artwork. Buy one good picture instead of 5 poor ones.

Find an artist that does good artwork and keep him around doing most of the artwork reqiuired.

2) YES - create a player's manual that has everything a player needs to create a character and play.

3) YES - create a referee's manual that has advise on how to run the game.

AND - have Colin do a 2300AD book.

 

[beowulf2044]

Production values through the roof? Have you seen the errata list for Classic Traveller? And the sad part is, even the errata has errors.

 

[Colin]

I like the "powered by Traveller" idea. I mean, really like it. It would solve many of the semantic issues we are seeing. There have been many good thoughts expressed in this thread, and I'm too tired to read them all. However, I am going to leave the thread open for a bit.

Be excellent to each other.

 

[tbeard1999]

Sorry, I thought I did, and it was an obvious joke.

If not, or if it was too bad a joke, I of course apologize.

No offense taken on my end...I think it was a moderator mistargeting (MODMIS)

 

[Ran]

So - what do we want:

1) Very high quality artwork. Buy one good picture instead of 5 poor ones.

Find an artist that does good artwork and keep him around doing most of the artwork reqiuired.

I think they have been moving in this direction. The last couple books are way above the "Mongoose standard" I've experienced with their Traveller books (what on earth went wrong in 760 Patrons?!). I whole heartedly applaud the art I've seen so far from the Aslan book and within Agent.

I love the artwork on the Spinward Marches cover. It sold itself to me on that alone. Aslan doesn't look like it will disappoint either.

Aside from some grammatical/spelling, formatting and general quality issues (Mercenary being particularly awful... I've used it once and it's spine is falling apart), Mongoose is really improving!

Keep it up!

But I don't agree with the player manual thing. The setup with one book being able to play everything is real nice. It helps with selling the game in my group. We don't need a stinking referee manual; We already know how to run a game.