OTU Only: What is your take on the Zhodani?

[ManOfGrey]

Not only "bad guys," but the perfect "bad guys."

I certainly have to give Mr. Miller and company credit for coming up with such a "perfect" bad guy to present as a foil in the Spinward Marches. Because I believe the Zhodani fit this bill to the letter.

In the United States, we often talk about our "right of free speech." Just think how most Americans would, and do(!), react when this right is threatened. Now consider taking away your "right of free thought." Not only is speech censored, but the actual thoughts running through your mind is as well?

And then to explain that, to the Zhodani, they wouldn't have it any other way. Because when everyone's thoughts are correctly "adjusted," there is no crime, no mental disease, no discontent.

To create "villains" whose base motivations are so out-of-sync with modern society, while at the same time explaining their motivations so well they become sympathetic characters, was a master stroke!

 

[Enoki]

If you want psionic villains, these guys fit the bill:

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Anubian_Trade_Coalition

Think Imperial Rome of Caligula or Nero, the worst of oligarchs, hedonists, and unscrupulous businessmen who use psionics to keep control over a population of serfs and peasants while also using them to cheat their customers.

 

[ManOfGrey]

Actually...I think it's much worse than that.

If you want psionic villains, these guys fit the bill:

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Anubian_Trade_Coalition

Think Imperial Rome of Caligula or Nero, the worst of oligarchs, hedonists, and unscrupulous businessmen who use psionics to keep control over a population of serfs and peasants while also using them to cheat their customers.

That's nice. And if that's how you wish to visualize and present the Zhodani, that's fine. Each to their own. But, frankly, have you ever considered the following?

That, among the Zhodani, even the nobles, and the thought police themselves, are subject to "adjustment" for incorrect thinking. Instead of Caligula and Nero ruling with an iron hand, dictating what everyone thinks, there exists instead a self-perpetuating system that no one is really in control of. If a noble believes something's wrong and needs to be changed, he'll never have the chance. His incorrect thinking will be detected, and his mind will be "adjusted" back to "normal." And he won't mind. He'll be happy about it. The Zhodani equivalent to Nero and Caligula will never exist. Their insanity will be detected early, and corrected.

Which means the system itself will never allow anyone to change it. It's a never-ending feedback loop that "programs" the entire population to only obey parameters that were established centuries ago, by those now long dead. The Zhodani have created a sociological order that none of them can escape. And given the Imperium's "unreasonable" fear of just such a scenario coming to pass, makes conflict with the Consulate inevitable.

Again, they are the perfect, sympathetic, bad guys.

 

[mike wightman]

Except they are not 'bad guys'. You are falling for Imperial propaganda.

Zhodani do not mind alter people to have a particular world view, they cure mental illness and psychosis.

The Zhodani have a hard time understanding Imperial dishonesty, habitual lying and deliberate criminal actions.

Listen to MWM's podcast on the subject, watch the youtube sessions.

From a 3I point of view the Zhodani take away free will - they don't. To the 3I the Zhodani routinely screen and mind alter the proles, they don't.

 

[Enoki]

That's nice. And if that's how you wish to visualize and present the Zhodani, that's fine. Each to their own. But, frankly, have you ever considered the following?

That, among the Zhodani, even the nobles, and the thought police themselves, are subject to "adjustment" for incorrect thinking. Instead of Caligula and Nero ruling with an iron hand, dictating what everyone thinks, there exists instead a self-perpetuating system that no one is really in control of. If a noble believes something's wrong and needs to be changed, he'll never have the chance. His incorrect thinking will be detected, and his mind will be "adjusted" back to "normal." And he won't mind. He'll be happy about it. The Zhodani equivalent to Nero and Caligula will never exist. Their insanity will be detected early, and corrected.

Which means the system itself will never allow anyone to change it. It's a never-ending feedback loop that "programs" the entire population to only obey parameters that were established centuries ago, by those now long dead. The Zhodani have created a sociological order that none of them can escape. And given the Imperium's "unreasonable" fear of just such a scenario coming to pass, makes conflict with the Consulate inevitable.

Again, they are the perfect, sympathetic, bad guys.

I was discussing the Anubian Trade Coalition in the Glimmerdrift. They are another group that uses psionics on the "other" side of known space. They really are villains.

 

[Condottiere]

The Strange Case of the noble Jacker and Intendant Hide.

Hiding in plain sight, so to speak.

Rearing forth only in the light of two full moons.

 

[GypsyComet]

And thanks to our absent friend Don, there's a multi-system Vargr polity sandwiched between the Consulate and Extents from which to recruit those agents.

That state has been on the map for decades.

The charisma that shapes Vargr society has a "dark" side, in that outsiders that game the system, whether consciously or not, affect the Vargr around them. And because those outsiders don't play the down sides of the Charisma game, they generally retain what charisma the Vargr think they started with.

In other words, outsiders stabilize the Vargr charisma whirlpool. Power structures are more stable and last longer, and economies, even Vargr economies, like stability. The Vargr polities that have either mixed with others, as we see in Julian space, or that have had their states influenced in some way by outsiders, like the states that border the Consulate, are different in several ways, but tend to become buffers between the insanity of the Extents and the (to the Vargr) incomprehensible stasis of non-Vargr space.

The Vargr who have emigrated into Imperial space only play the charisma game amongst themselves, and while they may use Humans as foils in that game, they are almost never see Humans as actually playing the game. The more self aware will *also* play the human social game, but they appear to keep the two games separate.

The Zhodani have little tolerance for the Vargr social game for a couple reasons, and spend a lot of effort on those buffer states as a result. The foremost reason is that it represents a social status determination that is not the one the Zhodani use, so Vargr tend not to want to stay in the social pigeonhole the Zhodani would place them in. The Vargr can understand and play the Imperial social game, but the Zhodani don't play a social game the Vargr can really understand and participate in.

Secondly, the Zhodani take the Vargr at face value because they've never had dogs. There is no shared world familiarity with the antics of canines, so to the Zhodani the Vargr are *much* more alien than they are to us.

 

[Condottiere]

Vargr society is inherently unstable; stability is achieved by a collective acceptance that the group as a whole is doing alright.

An outsider can only tap into a general dissatisfaction of the status quo, in greater or lesser degrees, in that a likely solution doesn't seem probable from the usual Vargr institutions.

 

[flykiller]

been reading about this new app in china, "study your nation" or something. the entire population of china is being unofficially required to participate in this app, which is described as being quite a time sink and very demanding of detailed attention to pass its spot checks. the app covers ancient and modern chinese history, chinese communist party doctrines, and the daily activities of emperor-for-life "pooh-bear" xi. people who don't participate or who don't participate sufficiently receive social credit red flags (on the new national "social credit" network) and are being denied bonuses, promotions, and even regular pay, until they do.

in contrasting this modern low-tech non-psy attempt at mind control, one wonders what the zhodani could, and would, attempt with their own people.

 

[mike wightman]

I doubt very much if the Zhodani would use such techniques.

The Zhodani do not mind control their population. They have built a society where mental illness is cured and people are trustworthy and honest.

The Imperium on the other hand...

 

[kilemall]

I doubt very much if the Zhodani would use such techniques.

The Zhodani do not mind control their population. They have built a society where mental illness is cured and people are trustworthy and honest.

The Imperium on the other hand...

Define mental illness.



Oppose the direction of the nobility? Madness, clearly ill. CURE! All better, I trust the Consulate!


Where it might get weird is if somebody takes control of the 'programming' and makes it about worshiping a particular leader personality or subset of Zho culture theory.


If you have competing visions of what constitutes 'health', then society might get fractured very quickly and in ways and reasons no one quite expected.

 

[Condottiere]

Cult of personality would be considered both a mental illness and a threat to the political system.

I'm no expert on the Consulate, but considering the implied Greco Roman, possibly Persian, possibly Indian caste, roots, it may be more client patron type of relationship.

 

[jcrocker]

However they defined mental illness, you can bet that when people were found that they knew would not play well with others, those people were tapped for the next Core Expedition.

 

[Grav_Moped]

However they defined mental illness, you can bet that when people were found that they knew would not play well with others, those people were tapped for the next Core Expedition.

Reminds me of Larry Niven's A World out of Time.

 

[mike wightman]

Define mental illness.

Wiki it

Oppose the direction of the nobility? Madness, clearly ill. CURE! All better, I trust the Consulate!

Outside of Imperial propaganda - and careful study of MWM interviews and podcast - indicate that this is not the way it is done.

Where it might get weird is if somebody takes control of the 'programming' and makes it about worshiping a particular leader personality or subset of Zho culture theory.

It would indeed, but much more likely to happen on an Imperial world or a world outside of the Zhodani Consulate.

If you have competing visions of what constitutes 'health', then society might get fractured very quickly and in ways and reasons no one quite expected.

I go by what MWM has written and said on the subject.

 

[mike wightman]

Cult of personality would be considered both a mental illness and a threat to the political system.

I agree.

I'm no expert on the Consulate, but considering the implied Greco Roman, possibly Persian, possibly Indian caste, roots, it may be more client patron type of relationship.

Hmm, that could be an interesting route to explore.

 

[mike wightman]

However they defined mental illness, you can bet that when people were found that they knew would not play well with others, those people were tapped for the next Core Expedition.

Another great idea - those that can not be cured could still be found a useful outlet for their talents...

 

[McPerth]

Define mental illness.

For the Zhodani, any antisocial behavior.

However they defined mental illness, you can bet that when people were found that they knew would not play well with others, those people were tapped for the next Core Expedition.

Another great idea - those that can not be cured could still be found a useful outlet for their talents...

IIRC, the Zhodani try to treat the illness of any insane crime (those comited willingly), and if they are not healable, they are just eliminated, as they see imprinonment as too cruel (and probably the seeds or more insaity), and releasing them would be too dangrous for society.

Oppose the direction of the nobility? Madness, clearly ill. CURE! All better, I trust the Consulate!

Again IRRC, this may even be the correct thing to do in some instances by the Zhodani, as nobles are also some times wrong...

 

[flykiller]

I doubt very much if the Zhodani would use such techniques

of course they wouldn't use such crude physical volume techniques. they wouldn't need to.

define mental illness

sure. anything the ruler doesn't like.

Cult of personality would be considered both a mental illness and a threat to the political system.

absolutely. any personality cult will view any other personality cult as a vile mental illness to be exterminated for the good of the legitimate personality cult.

when people were found that they knew would not play well with others, those people were tapped for the next Core Expedition.

well such freedom seekers won't necessarily head to the core, they may head elsewhere. reminds me of that scene in "yellowbeard" - "the queen doesn't know we've recovered the pirate treasure. or even where we are ...."

I go by what MWM has written and said on the subject.

you could - after all it's just a game. but the game is more typically envisioned as science fiction not science fantasy so a more realistic approach is better supported.

 

[Bromo33333]

Zhodani Misunderstood

I GMed the Zhodani as being Human in physiology but psychologically a very alien culture. More gulf between Zho and Sol than anything on Earth. (I did this before the alien module)

The Zhodani are culturally interested in happiness through mental health, given their focus and culture based around Psionics. The difference between rich and poor is low, because they understand the corrosive effects of such gulfs through their "thought police" so they adjust the minds, but also the culture to encourage good psychic well being. I also make their economy much more of a command economy, but with the feedback of being able to get accurate feedback on maximizing happiness.

So the average Zhodani citizen is a lot happier and more fulfilled than a typical Imperial. The amount of freedom and "free market" in Imperial space would seem like insane chaos and violence to a typical Zhodani.

This isn't to say my universe's Zhodani are without conflict - there is plenty of that, and plenty allowed to naturally evolve, too. Just there are manipulations and referees to keep it from gettingout of hand (Zho is Humaniti after all). And they have had many civil wars, both without violence and with it. I made their ultimate leadership a little murky. I was inspired by Alfred Bester's "The Undemolished Man" as a model. There was a convergence of minds that made decisions in aggregate, that was possibly oligharchy, but also was somewhat democratic - it wouldn't fit easily in the Imperial UWP. I also made the overall government similar on all worlds. But this was based on a incomplete understand of how Zhodani are governed.

ANd there is a heirarchy, but it's hard to fully characterize. And the Zhodani that leave the borders of the Consulate are viewed as being a little odd by Zhodani standards, so this is the outlet. So these are culturally not really fully accepted by society, but they follow a necessary function and also seem happiest this way. THis also gets the ones that do the coreward explorations.

A typical happy IMperial would find Zhodani culture to be scary, intrusive government and stifling. Zhodani would view Imperial culture to be insane, dysfunctional and violent.