Then you replace the 11 tons of fighter hangar with 8 tons for the G-carrier (or 11 for the Astrin), and put the team in under fast drug.
OTU Only: What Kind of Ships Does Traveller Need More of?
- Thread starter dmccoy1693
- Start date
Then you replace the 11 tons of fighter hangar with 8 tons for the G-carrier (or 11 for the Astrin), and put the team in under fast drug.
The correct design is:
100
020 bridge
004 PP A
001 MD A
010 JD A
012 3xSR (pilot, gunner, fighter pilot)
040 Fuel
010 1x10 Td fighters
001 Turret.
A computer is probably useful too
002 computer 2 or 2bis
lose a stateroom and you could have a better computer.
For a while now, I have been looking at 190dt B2 hulls as a compromise. You have to fit the drives as if it were a 200dt vessel, but you can still crew it (and must arm it) as a 100dt ship (i.e., Pilot only), since it is less than 200dt actual.
So, for example:
190
020 bridge
007 PP B
003 MD B
015 JD B
038 J fuel
020 P fuel
003 comp/3
001 turret
008 crew staterooms (P, optional G)
020 flight staterooms (five Boaters)
050 5 10dt Fighters
005 stores/cargo or if you insist, Mail
and you can always bump drive performance up at the cost of payload, of course.
Well, I'm talking more of a player group oriented vessel. An adventure that offers eight pre-gens up front, then says "here's your type-S" means double occupancy and eight physical bodies around the kitchen or dining table. To me that's impractical most of the time, and just not realistic unless you have players controlling more than one character ... which is okay, but it does call into question whether you're RPing or Wargaming.
I know the 100dt hard limit on jump capable vessels has been around since day-1, but when I read about longer range J-drives (leap drives or something?) in T5 or some other place, and partially as an advancement of both the official setting and rules, then might it be time to consider a tweaking of that rule to accomodate stuff like the upcoming Galaxiad?
Like I say, most of my groups have been three to four player sizes, sometimes five or six, rarely more and usually only on special occasions (Thanksgiving weekend, or New Years kind of thing).
Just let me put on my asbestos suit here (hood and everything). Flame away fellow citizens.
khadaji2002
SOC-12
No flaming from this poster. You just described most of my groups. Three to five regular players each session. Recently that's grown, we'll see if it lasts, and I'm not expecting it to. I've been looking at ways to fully crew anything over 200dT with three players without having a slew of NPCs running the show. I still haven't found one I like. Anything that would help reduce needed crew for PC ships would be welcome.
Right off the bat from a different angles.
Consider the ship's android in the show Dark Matter. A multifunction Droid who mostly fills the supporting rolls. Notably Medical and Engineering, with several side lines. I have a Valet Bot kicking around my notes who fills a similar role, and is required as part of the Mortgage/Use agreement for smaller ships with minimal crews.
Then consider the repair droids on Moya in the show Farscape, note to mention Pilot, both are fixtures. While I haven't used this yet it is in my list of things to do. Though I have given players Large Unstreamlined ships that required small crews before, largely to get Smallcraft into play more often.
Note both of these Ideas work if one assigns the status of Appliance to the mechanical crew stand-ins, They only get remarked upon if they are part of the plot.
Then there is Niven's Model of Single-Ship's, in that to get your single ship license people often crewed a 3 man ship while they all learned what they needed to pass the exam. Between the said 3 man crew they had all the skills needed to run a ship, this model would work in the Traveller model as well.
Just some ideas to consider.
khadaji2002
SOC-12
Evyn,
I haven't seen either of the shows you mention, so I'll see to correcting that. Having a robot/computer take up some of the slack is certainly one way to go, as is using an unstreamlined ship to get small craft in use. I will certainly consider both.
I haven't seen either of the shows you mention, so I'll see to correcting that. Having a robot/computer take up some of the slack is certainly one way to go, as is using an unstreamlined ship to get small craft in use. I will certainly consider both.
I guess this is a beef with me. Big ships, land, air, sea, can be controlled by a single man. They can't necessarily operate with a crew of one (or at lest not efficiently, size depending), but a super tanker, any navy ship, any jetliner, can be piloted by one individual. Even something like a tugboat or a modern navy DD can essentially be crewed by one man given the upgrades in software technology (and assuming said person has knowledge of the software). The days of large crews in engineering sections aren't neccesarily over, but they are more streamlined than in previous generations. So much, that in my opinion, a Traveller ship could be (and perhaps should be) flown by one person, or least that option should be there. Larger ships, say a Soli Free Trader, would run more efficiently, and probably with a larger degree of safety were it fully manned, but I think software (with or without AI) could give a single individual the capacity to take that vessel from point A to point B.
This has been something that's been gnawing at the back of my mind for some time how. Ever since I first read through the rules and was playing other games in the genre. Traveller had the attraction that you could build a vessel with the rules, and it had all kinds of weapons and gear that other games didn't have (other games mostly had monsters and aliens as an emphasis, with a smattering of basic scifi weapons/gear), but it had the draw back that you needed lots of characters to get anything done, and specifically to fly a ship.
And to this day I'm still agog about the reasoning behind this. I understand that big Imperial navy ships probably have all kinds of sensors, communications, and what not that require a person to watch over them. And it makes sense to have more than one helm station and more than one person on board who knows how to steer the ship. But in a non combat or non crisis situation, again to me, the crew rule requirement seems a little wonky, and more aimed at trying to balance the game for the sake of it; i.e. making sure a single PC or small group of PCs don't run off with an Imperial BB or something.
I've just always been at odds with this aspect of the game.
This has been something that's been gnawing at the back of my mind for some time how. Ever since I first read through the rules and was playing other games in the genre. Traveller had the attraction that you could build a vessel with the rules, and it had all kinds of weapons and gear that other games didn't have (other games mostly had monsters and aliens as an emphasis, with a smattering of basic scifi weapons/gear), but it had the draw back that you needed lots of characters to get anything done, and specifically to fly a ship.
And to this day I'm still agog about the reasoning behind this. I understand that big Imperial navy ships probably have all kinds of sensors, communications, and what not that require a person to watch over them. And it makes sense to have more than one helm station and more than one person on board who knows how to steer the ship. But in a non combat or non crisis situation, again to me, the crew rule requirement seems a little wonky, and more aimed at trying to balance the game for the sake of it; i.e. making sure a single PC or small group of PCs don't run off with an Imperial BB or something.
I've just always been at odds with this aspect of the game.
khadaji2002
SOC-12
I see your point, Blue Ghost, and it's a good one as far as it goes. My brother was in the Navy. The Navy over-crews their ships with the idea that if that vessel is in combat and takes casualties there are still bodies to run the guns and fix damage. Imo, military ships in any era are likely to be similarly over-crewed, with cross-training and extensive drills on manual operation of all functions in case of catastrophic failure.
On the other hand, merchant ships tend to go with minimal crew (your profit goes down for every paycheck you cut, after all). So I can easily imagine a huge freighter with a crew of 3 or 4. No one can perform at peak efficiency working two or three shifts a day every day. You'd need enough crew to rotate watches. I imagine something like a pilot, an engineer, and a couple of able hands running the ship. And the size of the freighter wouldn't matter. Until, that is, pirates hit the ship. Then everyone would be wishing they'd hired gunners and security.
I've only dabbled with computer rules, ship design, and robot design. Are there clear, inexpensive options for having the computer and/or robots run ship functions?
On the other hand, merchant ships tend to go with minimal crew (your profit goes down for every paycheck you cut, after all). So I can easily imagine a huge freighter with a crew of 3 or 4. No one can perform at peak efficiency working two or three shifts a day every day. You'd need enough crew to rotate watches. I imagine something like a pilot, an engineer, and a couple of able hands running the ship. And the size of the freighter wouldn't matter. Until, that is, pirates hit the ship. Then everyone would be wishing they'd hired gunners and security.
I've only dabbled with computer rules, ship design, and robot design. Are there clear, inexpensive options for having the computer and/or robots run ship functions?
They are amusing.
Note I am just spitballing ideas about small ship and crew ideas using Science Fiction tropes.
The funny thing is I was considering the Neural Interface route for crew reduction, by increasing work load of the individual, but honestly one ends up controlling Drones/Bots even with that route.
khadaji2002
SOC-12
IMTU the biggest issue determining the number of crew needed is the flight to and from a planet. In jump space you really only need one person standing watch at any given time. Once you've hit normal space again, that's when things get busy. Can the person piloting the ship handle navigation to the destination, comms, and sensors? That is a lot of multi-tasking. True, using a neural jack/neural interface helps, as does computer and robotic assistance. The problem (in my mind, anyway) is that lower level programs are going to either miss significant information or else bombard the human crew member with queries for assistance. And upper level programs either eat up so many processing cycles that you can't run other programs, or you have a super-expensive computer on board that itself might be a desirable target.
All that said, PC groups can get around this to a certain degree by having wider skill sets than NPCs are likely to have. Between that and android/computer assistance I would think a GM has enough tools to fill the missing slots with a smaller crew. Who knows? One of the PCs might be a noble with far more credits than is good for them, making that computer make more sense. :}
All that said, PC groups can get around this to a certain degree by having wider skill sets than NPCs are likely to have. Between that and android/computer assistance I would think a GM has enough tools to fill the missing slots with a smaller crew. Who knows? One of the PCs might be a noble with far more credits than is good for them, making that computer make more sense. :}
And engineers... and stewards.
I got around it to a certain extent with my group by having then in stall a better computer with more capacity and paying for extra automation of functions. The guys played the pilot, comms/astrogator, gunner and engineer. There was an engineering no. 2 (an android), and the computer handled a number of other functions with oversight by the PCs.
There you go!
khadaji2002
SOC-12
That is interesting. I have access to T20, a few T4 books, and a number of MgT1 and MgT2 books. I decided to wait on T5 given some of the delays. However, I'm going to look over the rules I have and see if I can work out a ship set up to allow 2-4 PCs to run a ship without a dedicated NPC.
MegaTraveller also has rules for Robot Brains. It's possible to build entirely autonomous ships.
BRJN
SOC-12
Larger player-focused ships.
Ships where the PCs fit in as officers (or sergeants), deciding what to do, rather than the guys who have to deal with all the details.
The NPCs in the crew can be a rotating source of whatever Skill-1's you need to do a job right but none of the PCs have that skill.
Suppose you DO finally land that Big Score with your ancient rickety Free / Subsidized Trader, and want to upgrade to another ship. What's available?
edit: I don't see a crying need for ships that are so big that the PCs just get lost in the crowd.
Ships where the PCs fit in as officers (or sergeants), deciding what to do, rather than the guys who have to deal with all the details.
The NPCs in the crew can be a rotating source of whatever Skill-1's you need to do a job right but none of the PCs have that skill.
Suppose you DO finally land that Big Score with your ancient rickety Free / Subsidized Trader, and want to upgrade to another ship. What's available?
edit: I don't see a crying need for ships that are so big that the PCs just get lost in the crowd.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I was looking through this thread again, and came across this post, that I guess I missed the first time.
Having actually tried to purchase a ship in the Real World, I had extensive talks with my bank on financing the purchase. The main interest in the bank was could I make the monthly payment and pay for insurance on the ship. A business plan showing that I could do that was what was needed. No talk of 50% to 100% over expenses. Just making the payments and covering the insurance.
I have no problems seeing financial institutions financing merchant star ships. The thing is if the borrower defaults on the payments, the financing body has a very tangible asset in the form of the ship. I can readily see low-population planets purchasing ships to insure that they have regular access to interstellar trade, and then hiring crews to operate them.
Prior to the U.S. Civil War, a portion of the South's rail network was subsidized by funds from the government, either state or local or both. In the case of the Western Atlantic of Georgia, it was totally owned by the State of Georgia. The purpose of that was to ensure rail communication from the cotton and tobacco growing areas to the coastal seaports for overseas shipments. The same thing will happen in the future in interstellar trade.
Having actually tried to purchase a ship in the Real World, I had extensive talks with my bank on financing the purchase. The main interest in the bank was could I make the monthly payment and pay for insurance on the ship. A business plan showing that I could do that was what was needed. No talk of 50% to 100% over expenses. Just making the payments and covering the insurance.
I have no problems seeing financial institutions financing merchant star ships. The thing is if the borrower defaults on the payments, the financing body has a very tangible asset in the form of the ship. I can readily see low-population planets purchasing ships to insure that they have regular access to interstellar trade, and then hiring crews to operate them.
Prior to the U.S. Civil War, a portion of the South's rail network was subsidized by funds from the government, either state or local or both. In the case of the Western Atlantic of Georgia, it was totally owned by the State of Georgia. The purpose of that was to ensure rail communication from the cotton and tobacco growing areas to the coastal seaports for overseas shipments. The same thing will happen in the future in interstellar trade.
Was there a duration you had to show planning for this for? Did they expect you to be able to keep up the repayments for just a single financial year, or require you to project out, say, five years?
What sort of collateral did the bank want for a loan to purchase a vessel?
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
With all due respect, Ulsyus, I think that information is between me and my bank, and not for public discussion on the forum.
I voted "other." I think Traveller needs more low-tech ships, by which I mean ships that are only barely jump-capable. What kinds of difficulties would those types of ships have had to have overcome? How did they deal with no [fill-in-high-tech-here]? How can an SDB compensate for low tech weaponry?
I think I just like the challenges.
I think I just like the challenges.
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