And what do you see happening if Guy refused the Knighthood, Aramis?
What makes the Imperium a Feudal Technocracy?
- Thread starter rancke
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depends on the Why, if he's all "I'm undeserving of this honour" they paint him as a humble hero and play up how much this guy thinks a knighthood should be valued.
if he's from a world that doesn't have it's own orders of knighthood and tries to make their citizens uncomfortable with noble titles they drag out a equivalent honour that doesn't come with a Sir or Dame.
If their all rebellious and anti-3I (that would come up in the background check) there is always character assassination or if need be actual assassination.
if he's from a world that doesn't have it's own orders of knighthood and tries to make their citizens uncomfortable with noble titles they drag out a equivalent honour that doesn't come with a Sir or Dame.
If their all rebellious and anti-3I (that would come up in the background check) there is always character assassination or if need be actual assassination.
He'd find business particularly difficult...
IMoJ audits, SPA marking him for extra attention (both at the port and for local customs), being put on hold by the SPA when trying to get services in port. Possibly even having his LIC revoked over minor violations. A simple system of automated scheduling and supposedly random searches can be set to increase for a "problem child"...
Not to mention snubbed all to hell by the Nobles... and them being extremely about "what a cad" he is. The folks who were inviting him to tea to see if he had the right stuff now know he certainly doesn't.
Keep in mind that, in order to be nominated, he's come to the attention of the nobles. They may not have much on-paper power, but the social power is a whole different matter, and the can and will wield it like a bloody greataxe. Snub them, and you've basically declared war on the Imperium in many eyes. And, since the nobility is not a closed group, people have reason to suck up... their power is magnified by the lure it provides to others.
And, further, if he ever decides he DOES want to join the party, it's too late, he's blow the bridge out from under his own feet. Depending on how he said "no", it could range from being a bit of a bounder to being identified as an enemy of the Imperium itself.
I'm going to contribute my personal definition.
A feudal technocracy is government by technical specialists, the people who have the technological or scientific expertise to make successfully function technical activities important to the society's survival or well-being. It's feudal because the society's ultimate authority (chief scientist, prime software developer, senior atmosphere processor engineer, whoever) grants responsibility for the performance of important technical, scientific or technological sectors of the society on a person with the technical expertise to personally make them function successfully in return for political and technical support. Political support means using the power and influence gained by controlling an important technical sector of the society to assist the continuance of the ultimate authority in his or her position, and technical support means doing his or her utmost to ensure the smooth delivery of technical services or technological production.
The difference is that the people governing are the technical experts who manage the particular functions, not non-technical managers, businessmen, investors, property owners, aristocrats or military leaders. If necessary, the technical experts would be perfectly capable of operating and maintaining technological assets in their realm of responsibility, their 'fief', unlike a general manager or other non-technical person.
A very rough example is Bartertown in Mad Max 3. Auntie Entity is the military leader being overshadowed by the power of her technician, Master/Blaster. Master/Blaster has considerable power in Bartertown because he the only person who can keep the methane production going. Without him, Bartertown is dead. If the people of Bartertown overthrew Auntie Entity and her guards in favor of Master/Blaster having political leadership in addition to his vital technical role, and then Master/Blaster appointed the best technically qualified people to be in charge of other technical activities like water reclamation, electricity generation, hydroponics and so on to serve at his decree in return for their keeping these areas functioning and supporting him as political leader, that would be an example of my definition of a feudal technocracy.
Is the Imperium a feudal technocracy? In my opinion no, I don't think it resembles one at all. I think it's an absolute monarchy with at feudal political structure at the interstellar level. I'm not sure it's all that feudal. Do the nobles in charge of subsectors use a portion of the wealth of the worlds of their demense to raise fleets and armies that they use to support their lords, or do the worlds pay taxes directly to the Imperial treasury?
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Maybe, but I think you guys are really underestimating the science of civil administration.
Perhaps, but I'm more influenced by the belief that while non-technological techniques can technically be considered technical, that's not the way the word is use in connection with technocracies.
Hans
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
Well, the word is a portmanteau, so by definition it is an attempt to merge both concepts into a distinct, but related, idea. The brilliantly weird early Twentieth Century socio-economist Thorstein Veblen was one of the first proponents of technocracy. His basic thesis was that the 'new' technologies of the later industrial age were giving rise to an equally new class of well-trained people (the 'engineers') who were highly skilled in these technologies, and who were also -- and arguably more importantly -- steeped in rationality because of it. Ultimately, these people would become so frustrated with the economic and social irrationalities of the traditional ruling elites that they would simply take over, forming a 'Soviet of Technicians' (his term), or the first technocracy. Other writers of the time were even more blunt about it, calling for a 'Council of Scientists' to take over right then and there.
It's important to note that Veblen did not view this form of governance as permanent in any way. Like Marx's 'Dictatorship of the Proletariat', it was explicitly intended to be a stopgap to a later, better order. I suppose the 'feudal' part would come in once the engineers, having formed their 'soviet', decided to also rationalize a reason to hang on to it.
You mean, it's actually a bog-standard oligarchy whose ancestors were scientists rather than military types?
Be that as it may, the definition of 'feudal technocracy' given in the Traveller rules involves the concept of 'technical services', and it's this use of the term 'technical' that I associate with technology rather than the alternate meanings of 'technical'.
I don't really see the assignment of a position to the heir of the previous holder as related to technocracy, not even if the heir has to demonstrate adequate ability to govern. Feudal, possibly (I've been persuaded to revise my position on that score -- I really should get around to writing a post about this change of opinion), but not technocratic.
Hans
Not scientists in the our general meaning of "research scientists". Veblen's initial idea for engineers and technicians to rule while others inflated that to include "practicing scientists". That is scientists involved in the application of theory rather than in the development of theory.
If I may offer a 'what if' just as fodder to the discussion ...
The planet Kansas is TL 6 and dominated by Inter-modal shipping of goods.
The Teamsters Guild controls every aspect of Inter-modal Shipping.
Emperor Fred rose through the ranks of the Teamster Guild because of his superior political skills, and now sits as undisputed ruler of the Teamsters Guild.
With a word, Emperor Fred can call for a work shutdown and all goods will immediately stop flowing to and from your independent city ... within a few days, food shelves will be bare and riots will break out in the streets.
Or alternatively, a visit from your mayor to kiss the ring of Emperor Fred, could result in a 10% increase in traffic through your inter-modal port ... creating 10,000 new jobs and a million credit boost in the city tax coffers.
Obviously, Fred is not a Technocrat in the narrow (and probably correct) sense of the term, but ...
The Transportation Industry Sector is (imho) a technology (actually a group of related technologies).
The Teamsters Guild directly controls the Transportation Industry Sector, and through its control of this technology, the planetary government.
Fred controls the Teamsters Guild, and through it, the planetary government.
Could the government of Emperor Fred reasonably claim to be a Technocracy since the power of the government is built directly upon the control of the technology vital to the civilization?
The answer may be 'no', I am just trying to think outside of the box.
The planet Kansas is TL 6 and dominated by Inter-modal shipping of goods.
The Teamsters Guild controls every aspect of Inter-modal Shipping.
Emperor Fred rose through the ranks of the Teamster Guild because of his superior political skills, and now sits as undisputed ruler of the Teamsters Guild.
With a word, Emperor Fred can call for a work shutdown and all goods will immediately stop flowing to and from your independent city ... within a few days, food shelves will be bare and riots will break out in the streets.
Or alternatively, a visit from your mayor to kiss the ring of Emperor Fred, could result in a 10% increase in traffic through your inter-modal port ... creating 10,000 new jobs and a million credit boost in the city tax coffers.
Obviously, Fred is not a Technocrat in the narrow (and probably correct) sense of the term, but ...
The Transportation Industry Sector is (imho) a technology (actually a group of related technologies).
The Teamsters Guild directly controls the Transportation Industry Sector, and through its control of this technology, the planetary government.
Fred controls the Teamsters Guild, and through it, the planetary government.
Could the government of Emperor Fred reasonably claim to be a Technocracy since the power of the government is built directly upon the control of the technology vital to the civilization?
The answer may be 'no', I am just trying to think outside of the box.
An advanced culture, such as the TL-15 Imperium could possibly have an effect on much lower Tech Levels similar to the Cargo Cults of the South Pacific. A culture shock could exist giving the Imperium as a whole a distinct advantage over much of the lower Tech Level worlds. The idea of Major Races being races that developed Jump Drive independently and not had it handed to them and are treated with more respect would seem to agree with this.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
There is not enough significant technological difference between TL9 and TL15.
Fusion gets more efficient, jump drives can go further in a single jump (there's nothing stopping you carrying enough fuel for multiple jump 1 at TL9).
Fusion gets more efficient, jump drives can go further in a single jump (there's nothing stopping you carrying enough fuel for multiple jump 1 at TL9).
Fred sounds like a TED... :-D Or simple good old hydraulic despotism.
The Abolition of Man and all that.
My co-workers and I do thought experiments along these lines all the time. We end up sounding rather fascist. I'm glad we're (i.e. my co-workers and I) not in power.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
IMTU
A government that controls robot and computer production, where the robots and computers generate the wealth for the meat beings to enjoy would be a technocracy.
Have a noble house responsible for one type of robot or computer system and you have the feudal part.
A hollowed out asteroid that is made into the home for a few million inhabitants, where the ruling classes control the grav machinery, energy generation, food production and the environmental systems is a technocracy, A noble family in charge of each aspect and you have feudal.
A government that controls robot and computer production, where the robots and computers generate the wealth for the meat beings to enjoy would be a technocracy.
Have a noble house responsible for one type of robot or computer system and you have the feudal part.
A hollowed out asteroid that is made into the home for a few million inhabitants, where the ruling classes control the grav machinery, energy generation, food production and the environmental systems is a technocracy, A noble family in charge of each aspect and you have feudal.
What if we make the model more complex?
Kansas is still TL6. Now the Drillers and Distillers Guild is a couple of collectives combined to cover those involved in the acquisition of oil and turning it into the petroleum fuels required to enable the Teamsters' trucks and trains and ships to run. The head of that guild, Bob, has the power to shut down drilling, or shut down the refineries that provide the end products that enable the Teamsters' Guild to operate all their equipment. One word from Bob can see the Teamsters' Guild's operations grind to a dusty halt, effecting the same outcome as insulting the slippers & smoking jacket ensemble of Emperor Ted.
The D&D Guild (sounds damn ominous, doesn't it!!) is highly technical ("Well" I hear you say, "I knew that: look at all the manuals they have to study...") and if they strike they can't just be replaced to restart production. So Bob says "Ted ol' buddy, I want a piece of the action."
Meanwhile, in a room full of ubergeeks the head of the Computational & Programmers Recursion, Dan, nods sagely at the advice of his guild's elders arrayed around the table before him after their oblations to the electron and considered advice is given. This too is a very technical field (professionally at least). As they have a monopoly on the maintenance & operation of computers and automated control devices, they know that they can cause drilling platforms to fail, petroleum distilleries to shut down, traffic control systems to lock up, rail switching operations to cease, and dock unloading facilities to grind to a halt. So Dan calls Ted & informs him "Without CPR you'll DIE, so I want a piece of the action too."
What is the system now?
You're right, there isn't a big difference. When you look at some of the Tech Level charts, you'll see an addendum word or phrase next to the TL number. Mostly, it breaks down to Primitive, Industrial, and Stellar. I've always wanted to use them as TAS classifications. And even if an Industrial culture might not be completely overwhelmed by a Stellar one, a Primitive culture definitely would be. And that is one way the Imperium can hold power.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I have sort of followed this conversation, but I still view the 3rd Imperium as an impersonal bureaucracy punctuated by exceptions to that rule. Exit Visa being a case in point.
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