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CT Only: What One Thing Would You Change About Classic Traveller?

One thing that strikes me in doing the "day in the life" writing exercise (thanks, @Spinward Scout) is that when played straight, the Proto-Traveller universe is a huge place even if you just keep it in the subsector! Simply having a jump-capable ship should be a big deal; anything above J-2 should really mean something.

Later versions of the OTU and their play styles flattened things out -- long-distance travel and commerce is routine, and you can play as individuals with responsibilities for subsector (and larger) regions. The map looks a lot smaller if you can hop on a J-4 liner or whatever, than if even J-3 is a rarity. And having a Free Trader that's the only ship the next world will have seen in a decade is different than that same Free Trader that's one of a dozen on the starport's flightline, parked next to a few 2000-ton shuttles from the pair of 20,000-ton freighters in orbit (with another one coming in from 100D and one more headed out...)
 
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Subsidized liners, the next level up.
... and there's your problem, right there. It's not a matter of megacorporate efficiency of scale any more, now it's political.
Specifically, it only exists because some entity is willing to lose money in providing the service.

Convenient for players looking to buy passage.

In-universe, it's the subsidizing entity doing three things:
1. Artificially depressing ticket prices
2. Artificially limiting capacity
3. Controlling availability of the service.
 
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<GURPS stuff>
My bad. I was taking somebody else's comment on GURPS, never had it myself.

Correction:
I agree that the intent of the rules (plural and in general) leans toward per jump, but insist that AS WRITTEN it leaves the door open for per parsec. AS WRITTEN gives a specific example of J1 booking and charging three parsecs away. MM wrote T5 as per parsec (sorta kinda), which lends further credence to the flexibility of interpretation and/or recognition that per jump doesn't work.
 
I agree that the intent of the rules (plural and in general) leans toward per jump, but insist that AS WRITTEN it leaves the door open for per parsec. AS WRITTEN gives a specific example of J1 booking and charging three parsecs away. MM wrote T5 as per parsec (sorta kinda), which lends further credence to the flexibility of interpretation and/or recognition that per jump doesn't work.
So, I watch this TV show call "Cold Justice", where a retired investigator takes a group of colleagues in to these towns with cold case murders and tries to solve them. The vast majority of these are, essentially, circumstantial cases (otherwise, they probably wouldn't be a cold case in the first place).

One of the mechanics the host likes to use from time to time regarding the cases they pursue is she takes all of the circumstantial facts they have against a person, and selects a simple pencil to represent each of them. Then, she talks about how easy a single pencil is to break. But then, she takes all of the pencils, and when all taken together, it's much more difficult. Simply, sure any one of these things they uncovered can be just sheer coincidence. But when stacked together, they paint quite a different picture.

So, you have your single pencil of a possible interpretation of an example that may suggest that per parsec is RAW.

But others have presented a stack of pencils, across editions, across companies, across ages, that paints a pretty stark position that per parsec is not RAW. You even mention that Mark wrote T5 as per parsec "sorta kinda", which may give you two pencils -- but one of them seems rather thin.

Obviously, what one does in ones own TU is of no concern. And I don't think anyone disagrees that per parsec might be "better" in the "real world" because, obviously, a longer jump consumes more fuel. But, to be fair, a long jump doesn't consume more of anything else. It doesn't consume more time, more salary, more food, more maintenance, or anything else. The only difference, per trip, is the fuel cost.

Of course, a ship with a higher jump number is more expensive in the first place, may require additional crew (regardless of the jump used at any particular time) and foregoes the opportunity costs of dedicated fuel tankage vs open cargo space or additional staterooms. But those fixed costs are an intangible overhead. And, one can fairly say that the passengers are getting extra value taking the long jump ship (saving excess travel time, Concord vs 747). That's all well and good.

But the game isn't that nuanced, especially when they had to cram it all in to the LBBs. Heck, the GURPS Traveller trade system is a single page of text in the entire book.

Far Trader does have per parsec. FT IS trying to be more economically sound, it's more of a Trade Sim than all of the others. But it's stands out as the exception of the rulesets rather than having its presence stomp on the precedent of all of earlier, simpler systems. Even post FT, ISW punted to the "per jump" model for passengers, even though it adopted the Bilateral Trade Number model for freight.

So, it's not that per parsec doesn't exist, it's not that it's not a good idea, but in regards to CT, MT, TNE, and base GT, it is not "RAW".
 
"Interstellar travel is priced on the basis of accommodations; prices cover a trip
from starport to starport, encompassing one jump, regardless of length"

Would you please be kind enough as to give us the exact reference?

AS WRITTEN gives a specific example of J1 booking and charging three parsecs away.

While stopping 2 times among the way (assumed, while to specified, on a port of call)...
 
Engineering tends to be the biggest ticket items for civilian starships, especially the jump drive.

Fuel for said jump drive tends to be the largest single usage of volume.
 
LBB2 81 edition page 4.

And once again the example of a jump 1 ship moving passengers 3 parsecs requires the passengers to pay three times - total cost Cr30000 if high passage, while if they take a jump 3 ship for the same destination it costs them one ticket or Cr10000.

Here it is again, page 9 LBB2 81 edition:

"A jump3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The
difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the
jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations,
and requiring three separate tickets)"

So the jump 1 trip costs you Cr30000 while the jump 3 trip costs you Cr10000.
 
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... and there's your problem, right there. It's not a matter of megacorporate efficiency of scale any more, now it's political.
Specifically, it only exists because some entity is willing to lose money in providing the service.

Convenient for players looking to buy passage.

In-universe, it's the subsidizing entity doing three things:
1. Artificially depressing ticket prices
2. Artificially limiting capacity
3. Controlling availability of the service.
Sure which is again why it’s a setting specific decision for the ref’s universe.

My megacorporate subsidized liner suggestion may be more palatable for those wanting less daddy imperium and more manipulative interstellar.
 
Here it is again, page 9 LBB2 81 edition:

"A jump3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The
difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the
jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations,
and requiring three separate tickets)"
Does everyone else see what I see there?
Here, I'll help anyone who didn't notice the important bit.
👉 through two intermediate destinations 👈
Jump-3 = System A Port -> System D Port = 1 destination port = 1 ticket (A -> D)
Jump-1 = System A Port -> System B Port -> System C Port -> System D Port = 3 destination ports = 3 tickets (A -> B -> C -> D)
Jump-1 = System A Port -> System B refuel -> System C refuel -> System D Port = 1 destination port = 1 ticket (A -> D)

All you're doing is proving yet again that the tickets for cargo and passengers are billed from Port of Origin to Port of Destination and the Trade Customs rules (also there in LBB2) explicitly specify that cargo and passengers are not considered delivered until they have reached their destination, which needs to match their point of pickup (orbit to orbit ... or surface to surface).

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio
 
Sure which is again why it’s a setting specific decision for the ref’s universe.

My megacorporate subsidized liner suggestion may be more palatable for those wanting less daddy imperium and more manipulative interstellar.
The point of underpricing competitors to drive them out of the market is to then be able to charge monopolist rates. Keeping the prices at loss-leader levels sort of defeats the purpose. . . :)

But in the end it's a handwave for a broken pricing scheme anyhow. And that's fine, as long as the players are on the beneficial side of the transaction. Determining the value of a High Passage received in mustering out (or a TAS membership) would get weird otherwise, and cheap space-fares make the game go more easily. Players won't notice that it doesn't work out until they get their own high-Jn ship, and with luck they'll just put it down to inefficient design (if they're not gear-head munchkins wielding spreadsheets) instead of overly simplified and narrowly-scoped trade rules.
 
Players won't notice that it doesn't work out until they get their own high-Jn ship, and with luck they'll just put it down to inefficient design (if they're not gear-head munchkins wielding spreadsheets) instead of overly simplified and narrowly-scoped trade rules.
To add to this: we here are looking at this with four decades of hindsight and play-testing, and computational resources that would have seemed like science fiction in the late 1970s/early 1980. (Hey, Model/1 computer anyone?)

It was "good enough." It can be better, but it might not have to be for the game to work tolerably well.
 
What are the costs for the liner if it has no mortgage to pay off?
Construction, 40 years of annual overhaul maintenance, 40 years of crew salaries, 40 years of life support, 40 years of berthing fees, 40 years of fuel purchases.

If the liner can generate enough revenue to cover all of those costs over a 40 year time span then the liner is a net profit investment.
If you assume:
the "speculative trade" model for megacorporations - they are shipping their own goods and making a profit after all
broker 4 available on megacorp payroll
never pay more than unrefined fuel

You build your transport ships out of the profits you make from your goods, the costs you allocate for freight and passengers and the revenue earned from the same are possibly regulated or more probably the bare minimum that you can charge.
For the megacorps and sector lines you need to think of it this way.
They control the production of the "speculative goods" their ships will be carrying.

Unlike Players and their fledgling lines, the "big boys" don't need to go begging for speculative cargoes to trade ... because they are large enough to be the source of them. The megacorps don't need to roll on the speculative goods table to find out what is available for interstellar transport because they make the stuff. They control the production cost and the wholesale cost and they control the supply. All the megacorps need to do is have a line of business in the production of a particular trade good (LBB2) and then work out where the best markets are local to that production where they can sell the stuff at the most consistent markup.

The speculative trade goods table that we players get the "roll 1D and 1D" to determine the available trade goods for our ships are the scraps and leavings after the bigger players have bought up the REAL production of the other goods, meaning that Players only get access to whatever is "surplus" in the market at the moment.

In other words, megacorps are playing the speculative cargo arbitrage game too ... except unlike for us Players, they're self-dealing and can more readily "control" the production and distribution of those cargoes to profit most handsomely from them. Any profits from shipping costs are almost a rounding error compared to the profit windfalls you can get from producing specialized cargoes at low cost and selling them for high prices elsewhere.

The "big boys" control more of the gravy train pipeline than any fledgling line Player operator could ever hope to achieve, simply through economies of scale (production control, distribution control) and "knowing" where they can sell their goods at the highest markup for the least cost of shipping.

It's the difference between playing poker with cards hidden versus cards on the table where everyone can see them ... oh and the megacorps are the dealer (and can choose which cards from the deck to deal to whom and when to deal them). :unsure:
 
Finally let's look at what we are first told:

"Interstellar travel is priced on the basis of accommodations; prices cover a trip
from starport to starport, encompassing one jump, regardless of length"

Would you please be kind enough as to give us the exact reference?
The sentence is not found in the 77 LBB2. I don't have 81, but I do have a pdf of The Traveller Book, which seems to be the 81 LBBs lumped together and repaginated. The above quote is on the first page of the "Travel" section (page 49 as paginated, or page 51 of the PDF count), which could be at the end of LBB2 page 1 or beginning of LBB2 page 2.
"A jump3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The
difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the
jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations,
and requiring three separate tickets)"

So the jump 1 trip costs you Cr30000 while the jump 3 trip costs you Cr10000.
Mike has left off two preceding sentences that change the context of the quote. If you're gonna play rules lawyer, include all the text.

One point I've leaned upon whenever a conflict appears in a set of rules (often encountered back in the days of STI and Avalon Hill wargames), is that a specific rule or example always governs over a general rule or example.

Here are the full paragraphs in TTB (assumed identical to 1981 LBB2 text) detailing how to apply the rules (emphasis mine).

Passengers will pay the standard fare for the class of
transportation they choose: Cr10.000 for high passage,
Cr8,000 for middle passage, and Cr1,000 for low passage.
Passage is always sold on the basis of transport to the
announced destination, rather than on jump distance
.

Differences in starship jump drive capacity have no
specific effect on passage prices
. A jump-3 starship charges
the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The difference
is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump,
while the jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps
(through two intermediate destinations, and requiring three
separate tickets
) to reach it. Higher jump numbers also
may make otherwise inaccessible destinations within reach.
But for two ships of differing jump numbers going to the
same destination in one jump, each would charge the same
cargo or passage price.

Notice how the general rule first cited by Mike only applies "starport to starport." Immediately we have a potential conflict: what about a ship with fuel for 2 jumps crossing a void? The destination two jumps away is "starport to starport," but is not one jump. The definition given fails, and the rule therefore does not apply AS WRITTEN. So the next statement of the rule drops the "one jump" limitation and states that price is based on "transport to the announced destination, rather than jump distance." There are no loopholes in that rule, and therefore it governs. This is the first context that Mike's analysis ignores. Mike is calculating by jump distance, which is expressly denied.

The LEADING POINT of the example (second paragraph in the quote) is that drive capacity has no specific effect on passage prices. If comparing two ships that can reach the destination in one jump, this is tautology. It only matters if one ship in the comparison can't reach the destination in one jump. The only way the statement can hold is if prices are charged per parsec "to the announced destination" even if more than one jump is required. This is the second context that Mike's analysis ignores. He is allowing jump capacity to dictate passage cost, which is expressly denied.

Let's examine the example carefully: a J3 ship that can reach a destination in one jump vs a J1 ship that takes three separate jumps. Note that nothing indicates that there is a starport in any intervening stop. In such a case, the trip still counts as "starport to starport" in the first rule statement but fails in the "one jump" restriction. Again, this simply means that general rule doesn't apply. We still have a rule statement that merely looks at "transport to the announced destination," which therefore applies whether there are starports intermediate or not.

The fact that the author recognizes that transport can be sold to a destination three jumps away AUTOMATICALLY NEGATES the requirement that only trips of one jump define the price. That statement requiring passage "encompassing one jump" is, therefore, only a hypothetical "simplest case" price basis, and not a governing rule. Specific cases always govern over general rules.

Now let's look again at the example. The J1 requires "three separate tickets" to reach the destination. If the destination is across a void, and therefore still "starport to starport," the solution presented (elsewhere in this thread that I can't easily find) that NxJ1 would still only charge 1 fixed passage fails the "encompassing one jump" part of the rule and cannot apply. It also fails because the example specifically says that passage would be charged three tickets, not one.

ERGO: Passage can be booked to a destination more than one jump away, is paid for each leg of the journey, and costs the same no matter what the drive capacity or jump distance of each leg traversed to get to the destination. The ONLY way to resolve all the rules is to charge per parsec between origin and destination.
 
I have quoted every single word many times - now that you have posted the whole text yet again read what it says again, all of it from the very beginning of the starships chapter - what we are told is this:

1 - the announced destination must be within the jump number of the ship - rules as written
2 - passage price is for one jump regardless of distance - rules as written
3 - a jump 1 ship travelling to a destination 3 parsecs distant requires three separate tickets - rules as written.

You are obviously never going to change your mind on this, and neither am I.
 
That is actually a slight oversimplification of the rule as written “The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number)”.

If my Jump 1 ship has 20% jump fuel (enough for TWO consecutive Jump 1’s) then “all worlds accessible to the ship” includes all worlds 1 parsec away and all worlds 2 parsecs away. If we assume a typical straight line “main”, then that is 4 worlds “accessible” to that ship. Crossing empty hexes in a crowded part of the map there could be a LOT of worlds “accessible” (18 hexes worth if I counted correctly, 6 hexes at 1 parsec away and 12 more hexes at 2 parsecs away).

The price for 1 dTon of cargo is Cr 1000 from port of origin to port of destination.
Note: LBB2 (77) states:

Cargo is normally shipped at a rate of CR 1000 per ton. Starship owners may
purchase goods locally and ship them at their own expense, speculating that they
may later sell the items at sufficient increase to make a profit.

Hmmmm, "normally" would mean there are exceptions. Buying goods and carrying them in your own ship doesn't apply to generic cargo. So, then, a cargo shipment can be charged something other than CR 1000 per ton? Maybe, CR 1000 per ton per parsec?

Yes, this sentence was changed in 81.
Clarify the CT trade rules to explicitly and clearly state that passenger tickets and cargo transport are uniformly billed as being from port of call to port of call (from origin to destination) and are not modified by distance (parsecs or number of jumps). Update the trade rules to include interplanetary origins and destinations (LBB6 expanded system generation) as well as interstellar destinations.

NO! FOR BATTLE, COME TO ME! (can't find a gif clip to meme)

CT should drop all the silly trade rules, they serve only to complicate. Charge per parsec distance origin to destination is the simplest solution to all the "trade wars." End of.
__________
I apologize for getting "condescending" toward Spinward's "condescending" comments. I was trying to keep it light-hearted but stepped over the line.
 
So for all these years you have been arguing based on CT 77 edition rather than 81, TTB, ST etc?

Does that mean you still have jump torpedoes? Ships that only require power plants if they have maneuver drives?

By the way 77 edition still has the procedure:

referee determines worlds accessible based on jump number

page 7

After accepting cargo for a specific destination - which must be within the jump number of the ship remember - the ship then advertises for passengers to that destination - which has to be within jump number of the ship remember.

A jump 3 ship charges the same as a jump 1 ship for passengers.

And I have finally spotted the big difference - 77 doesn't mention the buying three separate tickets bit of the sentence.

To reach a world 3 parsecs away you must either pay for one ticket on the jump 3 ships and three separate tickets for each of the jump 1 trips or the other interpretation is that the jump 1 journey still costs Cr10000 since that is how much the jump 3 ship charges for the high passage.
 
I've quoted every edition from '77 through TNE in my posts.
Hmmmm, "normally" would mean there are exceptions. Buying goods and carrying them in your own ship doesn't apply to generic cargo. So, then, a cargo shipment can be charged something other than CR 1000 per ton? Maybe, CR 1000 per ton per parsec?
MAYBE cargo COULD is free!

MAYBE its supposed to be 10,000Cr per ton (but turns out it only pays 10Cr, cuz the party was scammed).

"Ok, what do you guys do next." "We engage the jump drive and head out to the next system" "Ok, the jump works fine, everything is smooth sailing. After dinner, however, you notice the lights start to flicker and the camera in the cargo bay is showing the crates rattling with occasional bright flashes from the seams."

MAYBE that happens.

That's all the purview of the referee which is not bound by RAW.
 
Note: LBB2 (77) states:
Nice cherry picker you've got there.

When the RAW say what you want them to say (or at least, you think they do) ... RAW must be followed strictly and to the letter.
As soon as the RAW doesn't mean what you (mistakenly) think they should ... the RAW is WRONG and must be ignored.

Talk about wanting to have it both ways at the same time, whichever way is most convenient for getting what you want. 💣
Does that mean you still have jump torpedoes? Ships that only require power plants if they have maneuver drives?
You mean these?

X-boat-Ship-CT-Deitrick-Tarsus-Cover_16-Sept-2019g.jpg


Express Boats ARE "jump torpedoes" with the REQUIRED minimum 1 crew member.

Last I heard, there seem to be rather a lot of them in the OTU, to the point where they are somewhat commonplace ... :rolleyes:
 
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