What sort of crack was Mongoose smoking--fuel weeks

[Garyius2003]

What kind of crack was Mongoose smoking when they designed their ships to have only two weeks fuel?

'Hey there merchant guy, we are sending you out for a day, into jump for 7 days--maybe 8--then back in normal space for 1 to three days. All that with only 14 days to have air. Yes, three days safety. Small chance your jump and/or travel time to be up to four extra days...that will be one day with no power, drives, or air.'

Real nice work, did anyone proof read that crap?

 

[fiat_knox]

Colourful metaphors aside, it has been established elsewhere on this forum that a fusion drive would get through something like a cupful of LHyd fuel in about twenty years or so (I'm not quoting exact figures, but it was something like that); thus, if you wish to retcon your vessels' fuel requirements such that they would need something like twenty years between refuelling stops for the P-plant, you go for it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Colourful metaphors aside, it has been established elsewhere on this forum that a fusion drive would get through something like a cupful of LHyd fuel in about twenty years or so (I'm not quoting exact figures, but it was something like that); thus, if you wish to retcon your vessels' fuel requirements such that they would need something like twenty years between refuelling stops for the P-plant, you go for it.

What if the energy required for the Traveller-age fusion reactors are more than a cupful? It's a different technology--a tech that rips open holes in real space allowing transfer to jump space. So, what you say is true for what we understand today, but maybe our understanding will have to be adjusted in the future when we break the light barrier.

Or, what if what is referred to as the "ship's reactor" is actually a collection of different sub-systems, all with their own reactors--their combined fuel requirement being what is listed in the rules? Not unlike the ship's "computer" being considered a collection of several computers--a computer network--from the small computer that governs the airlock to the one that manages the jump bubble to the navigational computer to the entertainment computer...and so on.



In any respect, one shouldn't have to retcon something like this on brand new rules as an excuse for poorly written material.

The OP has it right. Mongoose Traveller is, indeed, crap.

 

[robject]

What kind of crack was Mongoose smoking when they designed their ships to have only two weeks fuel?

Economy and reliability. I assume these ships are designed for (1) routine operations, or (2) operations which rely on auxiliaries or wilderness refueling.

One week in jump. Arrive at a 100D limit of your target world; e.g. 5 hours to landing on a size 7 world. Less if you want to smack into it at high V. Plenty of fuel to spare.

Edge cases are not frustrating: they become interesting, requiring some retrofits.

Want insurance? Trade off some hull volume for a couple more weeks of fuel. Take it from cargo, if you've got enough to spare. Or if you've got a military vessel, trade off some performance and/or firepower.

 

[rancke]

What if the energy required for the Traveller-age fusion reactors are more than a cupful? It's a different technology--a tech that rips open holes in real space allowing transfer to jump space. So, what you say is true for what we understand today, but maybe our understanding will have to be adjusted in the future when we break the light barrier.

Not the jump fuel. We don't object to the jump fuel (although we may believe only a little bit of it is used as actual fuel). What we object to is the powerplant being abysmally (and unbelievably) inefficient. Something that was fixed in MT and T4, only to be re-broken in T20 and now, apparently, likewise broken in MGT.


Hans

 

[flykiller]

In any respect, one shouldn't have to retcon something like this on brand new rules as an excuse for poorly written material.

think of it not as retconning, but as refereeing.

 

[Eggtooth]

'Hey there merchant guy, we are sending you out for a day, into jump for 7 days--maybe 8--then back in normal space for 1 to three days. All that with only 14 days to have air. Yes, three days safety. Small chance your jump and/or travel time to be up to four extra days...that will be one day with no power, drives, or air.'

Why don't you look up and see how much extra fuel they put in an airplane?

Profit compromises safety and vice versa.

Also, the Mongoose rules (High Guard) also explain that the fuel requirements assume maneuvers, active scans, etc and that on passive scans and life support only with no maneuvers beyond minor course corrections the fuel will last much longer. So it is logical that in jump space, the days don't count against the fuel.

Finally, Mongoose isn't the only incarnation of Traveller with this "problem".

 

[Peter Schutze]

>Finally, Mongoose isn't the only incarnation of Traveller with this "problem".

TNE / FF&S only had an automatic 2 weeks as well IIRC

>So it is logical that in jump space, the days don't count against the fuel.

is this specified anywhere or only an assumption ?

>Mongoose rules (High Guard) also explain

Always happy to see books with topic specific add-ons, sad to see that given the opportunity to create a clean new version that doesnt require switching between several books to confirm an answer, mongoose has also failed.

>Why don't you look up and see how much extra fuel they put in an airplane?

The rule for international flights should still be twice the fuel required to reach the nearest alternate airport .... so for any flight heading to Australia thats 2-3 hours extra on an average 15 hour flight

Applying the same rules to traveller probably means an alternate planet

 

[Eggtooth]

>So it is logical that in jump space, the days don't count against the fuel.

is this specified anywhere or only an assumption ?

Not quite an assumption, but not quite specified. I will admit that I have griped many times about the rules being all over the place or assumed in Mongoose Traveller, but it reminds me of the Classic Traveller issues and the gripe becomes nostalgia. But on topic, the alternate jump rules explain fuel expenditures for each method of "jump". It explains the teleport drive as working just like the jump drive but without the week-long wait in hyperspace. No extra fuel is expended beyond normal jump. Also, it explains that warp drive doesn't have a single massive expenditure for the jump but rather consumes fuel at twice the normal rate. This and other context clues point to the jump fuel covering ship functions in jumpspace. Regardless - it is the simplest solution to the problem and is supported by supplemental books.

>Mongoose rules (High Guard) also explain

Always happy to see books with topic specific add-ons, sad to see that given the opportunity to create a clean new version that doesnt require switching between several books to confirm an answer, mongoose has also failed.

I can't fault a company for releasing new information, extrapolations, etc in supplemental books. They have to make a living. There is no requirement to switch between the books. It is an option to use them or not to. Heck, if there was any failure that Mongoose made at all it is in keeping the multiple systems of ship construction from Classic. I love Classic and I love Mongoose, but for heaven's sake I can't decide to enjoy the charm or spit at them. So far, I'm enjoying the charm.

>Why don't you look up and see how much extra fuel they put in an airplane?

The rule for international flights should still be twice the fuel required to reach the nearest alternate airport .... so for any flight heading to Australia thats 2-3 hours extra on an average 15 hour flight

Applying the same rules to traveller probably means an alternate planet

The rule is actually enough fuel to reach the destination + the nearest alternate (usually 100 miles) + 45 minutes, but you were pretty close. There have been huge issues with flights that couldn't maintain a 30 minute holding pattern because they had too little fuel in them in order to reduce weight and save fuel costs. If I were a trader I would want something similar - more room devoted to cargo and just enough fuel to jump into the system and maneuver to the planet. Worst case I refuel at a station or at the system's gas giant. If jumping to a system without one, then I would be a bit more concerned. The kicker is that a trader knows what his destination will and will not have barring crisis.

Something else to consider is the frequency of gas giants. A system has greater than a 80% chance of having a gas giant. So most ships will be able to refuel in a pinch. Jupiter is Sol's 7-Eleven.

 

[far-trader]

...Something else to consider is the frequency of gas giants. A system has greater than a 80% chance of having a gas giant. So most ships will be able to refuel in a pinch. Jupiter is Sol's 7-Eleven.

But!

Only if they arrive at the gas giant. CT* presumed (barring some annoying discrepancies, like the writeup on Regina) that the mainworld was in the habitable region of the star and the gas giants were in the outer system and at least a weeks travel there. That makes routine gas giant refueling time consuming. And in the case of bingo fuel, pointless.

And only if your ship is designed to do it.

* not sure what or if MGT did on that issue

 

[Eggtooth]

But!

Only if they arrive at the gas giant. CT* presumed (barring some annoying discrepancies, like the writeup on Regina) that the mainworld was in the habitable region of the star and the gas giants were in the outer system and at least a weeks travel there. That makes routine gas giant refueling time consuming. And in the case of bingo fuel, pointless.

And only if your ship is designed to do it.

* not sure what or if MGT did on that issue

It is very similar. About 5-7 days to reach a gas giant from the star in a Sol-like system at Thrust 1. However, when you adjust for the distance between a habitable planet and the star, it is more like 4-5 days. Tight, for sure, but feasible if you jumped out at 100 diameters from the previous system and have 13 days to spare.

I also assumed that the ship was a Free Trader, Far Trader or Fat Trader because of the original post. All three have fuel scoops and even processors.

If we are discussing ships without them that made a blind jump and are griping they will be without fuel... well... that sounds like a Traveller adventure and they can suck it up, right?

 

[far-trader]

It is very similar. About 5-7 days to reach a gas giant from the star in a Sol-like system at Thrust 1. However, when you adjust for the distance between a habitable planet and the star, it is more like 4-5 days...

Ah, only if they are on the same side of the star at the time right

Add about double the planetary orbit time if they are not in alignment, and it's more likely they aren't than are given orbital periods.

But in general I have no problem with merchants being on the edge of safe fuel, it's all about packing the most revenue space in. And it is a fun bit of gaming. I think Mongoose might have done a better job explaining that as the reasoning, and/or pointing out baldly that assumption about not burning fuel while in jumpspace which would mean a week of reserve. Though IF that is how it's supposed to be interpreted I think merchants would be saying... "Why did you design two weeks of fuel in the ship? I want the revenue space. One week of fuel is all we need!"

 

[Zparkz]

>Finally, Mongoose isn't the only incarnation of Traveller with this "problem".

TNE / FF&S only had an automatic 2 weeks as well IIRC

TNE ships usually had ONE year fuel supply for its powerplant. About 30 hours of reaction mass and then of course the jump fuel.

MT usually had 30 days of powerplant fuel, no reaction mass and then the jump fuel.

 

[Eggtooth]

Ah, only if they are on the same side of the star at the time right

Add time if they are not in alignment, and it's more likely they aren't than are given orbital periods.

Oddly enough, not really. Due to the acceleration/deceleration mechanic the amount of time to reach an inner system planet from an outer system planet doesn't fluctuate much as the orbits bring them closer and farther apart. The minimum distance is so great that the peak velocity makes short work of the inner planets orbital diameter. I didn't believe it at first so I wrote up an excel sheet that calculates hours between destinations assuming a starting velocity of X, the distance to travel, and the thrust. My players really have started to rethink the whole "stopping for a side mission" idea because of the time it adds to actually stop and restart.

But in general I have no problem with merchants being on the edge of safe fuel, it's all about packing the most revenue space in. And it is a fun bit of gaming. I think Mongoose might have done a better job explaining that as the reasoning, and/or pointing out baldly that assumption about not burning fuel while in jumpspace which would mean a week of reserve.

I agree. There are a couple of problems like that. For example skill specializations. Read that chapter a couple of times and tell me where exactly is says how points are spent on specializations and core skills. If you follow your gut after playing Classic, you'll get it right, but you won't know why. It takes some digging, liberal use of context clues, example references, and finally GM authority to move past the issue.

 

[aramis]

Peter, TNE measures PP fuel in kL/YEAR, not kL/hour. (the TNE rules do, however, separate out reaction mass fuel from PP fuel. You'll just about never freeze from running out of fuel in TNE. Starve, probably.

 

[MongooseMatt]

What kind of crack was Mongoose smoking when they designed their ships to have only two weeks fuel?

'Hey there merchant guy, we are sending you out for a day, into jump for 7 days--maybe 8--then back in normal space for 1 to three days. All that with only 14 days to have air. Yes, three days safety. Small chance your jump and/or travel time to be up to four extra days...that will be one day with no power, drives, or air.'

Real nice work, did anyone proof read that crap?

Well, if I was being as sarky as your post (we'll presume you were having a bad day), then I would say it was proof read better than your reading of it.

However, a serious answer. . .

That two weeks of fuel is listed as the _minimum_ required for jump capable craft (P107, 4th paragraph under Fuel). If you look at the actual ship designs, many are expanded beyond this. For example, the Mercenary Cruiser has six weeks worth of fuel while the Police Cutter has four weeks - both are assumed to be used in longer term missions. The Type-S has 14 weeks.

Meanwhile, as other posters here have correctly guessed, merchant vessels are usually cut right back to the bone to maximise cargo capacity. What a captain chooses to do with that cargo space is up to him - sure, he can convert some of the space to more fuel tanks, but he'll be nailed by more efficient captains on known trade routes. However, maybe he can claw things back with more 'speculative' destinations.

Believe it or not, writers do sit down and think of this stuff! We only give them crack _after_ they have written a book and, in answer to your first question, it is _really_ good shit.

 

[Dragoner]

Just to say (and this is from boating in severe heavy seas of the Northern California coast where experienced fishermen in modern craft are lost regularly), you never go below 50% fuel; to make sure whereverer you go, you can get back.

Just my two cents.

 

[mbrinkhues]

That's basically one of the quite often noted problems with the MGT rules set:

Unlike MT/TNE/GT etc. the have NOT split the power consumptions or given power outputs in a useful way. So one can not "switch off" certain systems to conserve fuel consumption etc.

A very stupid design decision IMHO. Sure one can houserule. But once I start that, I can use any of the other Traveller rules and skip MGT, saving money and effort.

 

[robject]

That's basically one of the quite often noted problems with the MGT rules set:

Unlike MT/TNE/GT etc. the have NOT split the power consumptions or given power outputs in a useful way. So one can not "switch off" certain systems to conserve fuel consumption etc.

A very stupid design decision IMHO. Sure one can houserule. But once I start that, I can use any of the other Traveller rules and skip MGT, saving money and effort.

At the same time, a necessary abstraction to have playable rules. Munchkinizing fuel use is neither a critical nor particularly interesting part of the game.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Also, the Mongoose rules (High Guard) also explain that the fuel requirements assume maneuvers, active scans, etc and that on passive scans and life support only with no maneuvers beyond minor course corrections the fuel will last much longer. So it is logical that in jump space, the days don't count against the fuel.

One thing I realized when designing Fighters and Small Ships is that a ship with its own Drive System fuel (like a reaction drive) doesn't require much in the way of power. A ship only requires a PP that can deliver a rating of 1 for all operations except maneuvering (and solar panals can deliver that much power). As such, a primitive fighter in there has a much higher thrust rating than its power plant rating, and two different fuel tanks.