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What's the deal with blue Darrians?

Maybe, but that's not how I wrote them, nor is it very sci-fi IMO.
I was answering Bill's claim that there was no way to make Blue Darrians fit into the OTU. While I agree with him that your way don't work, I disagree with him that there's no way that will work.

As for your way, we've already discussed it and I don't see any likelihood that we'll ever agree.


Hans
 
I was answering Bill's claim that there was no way to make Blue Darrians fit into the OTU. While I agree with him that your way don't work, I disagree with him that there's no way that will work.


Hans,

My remarks deal with Dragoner's increasingly desperate/silly geneering excuses only.

I'm not suggesting that Blue-painted Darrians or some such wouldn't work in the OTU. I haven't even examined that aspect because it doesn't really matter.

I'm also trying - and repeatedly failing - to point out that Dragoner doesn't need to come up with any excuses at all. The Blue Darrians work for him and that is all that really matters.

He doesn't need to bother "explaining" how and why they were geneered or anything else. He can spend his time on more important tasks, like re-coloring other people's artwork and posting it here.


Regards,
Bill
 
Hans:
The replacement of Hemoglobin with Hemocyanin is not a big genetic difference (the molecules are relatively close), and further, Hemocyanin is not leathal to humans. It is in fact used in humans as a cancer treatment with few side effects.

Bill:
His need to define them in a scientifically plausible manner may in fact be essential given the propensities of players.

Both:
They are plausible that they might exist in a slightly variant OTU. Most people's add ons to the OTU need to be consistent with everything published; nothing in them contradicts canon explicitly. It's less a jump to say that there might be a radical group driven to a more violent state by side effects concurrent with a geneering change from hemoglobin to hemocyanin, than to say that TNE and MT describe the same universe 85 years apart.
 
Convergent evolution.....evolutionary split (kinda like the Vulcans and Romulans to use a Trek example....referee fiat (always works in my games or the rules-lawyer gets the boot.

The possible explanations, if needed at all are endless.
 
Hans,

My remarks deal with Dragoner's increasingly desperate/silly geneering excuses only.

I'm not suggesting that Blue-painted Darrians or some such wouldn't work in the OTU. I haven't even examined that aspect because it doesn't really matter.

I'm also trying - and repeatedly failing - to point out that Dragoner doesn't need to come up with any excuses at all. The Blue Darrians work for him and that is all that really matters.

He doesn't need to bother "explaining" how and why they were geneered or anything else. He can spend his time on more important tasks, like re-coloring other people's artwork and posting it here.


Regards,
Bill

The reason why you are failing is because you fail to realize I don't care what you think, if you don't like them, c'est la vie. I welcome honest critique, though if you are going to make assumptions, you should back them up with proper arguments. Otherwise it comes off as just base negativity, which is bad for the whole creative enterprise of what Traveller is.

As for my artwork, it is more than re-coloring found photographs, photoshop is an accepted form of fine art with roots in such artists Baldassari (who's work was just shown at The Palace of the Legion of Honor is SF). If it was just simple re-coloring, it wouldn't take hours to create.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Baldessari
 
Hans:
The replacement of Hemoglobin with Hemocyanin is not a big genetic difference (the molecules are relatively close), and further, Hemocyanin is not lethal to humans. It is in fact used in humans as a cancer treatment with few side effects.
Did you read the original discussion? Just because something is not lethal to humans in small quantities doesn't mean it's a good idea to replace your blood with it. At human body temperature hemocyanin is about one quarter the efficiency of hemoglobin. The replacement requires replacing the bone marrow with something that will produce... let's call them 'blue blood cells'... It also requires replacing each and every cell in the body with one that is able to interact with the blue blood cells. And to cap it all, these particular blue blood cells magically enable the Blue Darrians to survive BOTH in the temperature and air pressure of Entrope's surface AND in environments suitable for the survival of baseline humans.


Hans
 
As far as toxic oxidation and oversaturation is concerned you would have to look at how a species evolved within its environment to answer that one. On alien worlds things are not going always be like here on Earth anyway so the sky's the limit for these things.

There are animals here on this planet that have evolved over millions of years as the planet went through its various stages of development atmosphere-wise among others. If you went back to the Cambrian Era and brought forward a critter from there it would likely die from a lack of oxygen. Likewise if you went back there you'd die from the higher content of oxygen burning out your lungs.

All those things are relative to so many factors that this why you can range all up and down the "hard sci-fi scale" and get away with it most of the time. In a book you might not, but that depends on the target audience and you can be surprised how much weight some lamps will support anyway.

As far as your Traveller game goes: do thou what thou wilt.

Mine is entirely non-OTU (except for the rules) and has an evil (as far as humans are concerned anyway) repitle-like mammalian race that is constantly fiddling with its own genetics to create a race that can better compete with its opposite: the Terran Empire and those darned versatile humans. It is a caste society and clones human psi-talents to use as spies among the humans.

A race of felines that were artificially uplifted by one supertech race a long time ago in order to use them as soldiers to fight against their supertech rival...and then when millennia ago both of those races moved elsewhere these cats came up with their own myths and culture and continued advancing (though only at TL-11 so far). The best part is that they don't know the real story of their origins, but they have heretics who come along once in a great while who stumble across it while researching certain inconsistencies in the species' makeup. They look more like a cross between a lynx and a cheetah, and are much smaller than an Aslan (which I abhor more than those talking dogs and starfish), but the clans/families have been selectively breeding for bloodline-specific psioinc talents for generations. While they are imminently capable of fighting to defend themselves, they have developed a peaceful society that emphasizes trade and inter-family cooperation. They construct vast "scent-story" gardens (some on the homeworld are the size of cities and tell th onstantly advancing story of thier race), the warriors wheel about in huge manadala-like formations to the sound of kettle drums and chants to practice coordinated maneuvers in a tradition of individual close combat over mass tactics, and the race uses different drive tech than everyone else. Currently that's stutterwarp.

A race of hyena-like marsupials who were nocturnal omnivores that evolved to have semi-intelligent females, a certain racial inferiority complex and strong desire to spread out through all of known space by means peaceful or violent. Due to the violent approach not working too well most of the time (except when picking on the colonists settling among the worlds formerly contained within the now-defunct Terran Confederation) they are changing tactics to use cunning and guile. They also have some of the best mercenary legions for rent, but it's hard to get them to fight each other. They prefer not to but relish fighting human mercs; it has a lot to do with the racial inferiority thing.

Plus a myriad minor races in a universe I built from scratch in '77 and have been tinkering with, players or no, ever since. It's worked without a lot of whys and hows from players for all this time, with very few exceptions, so I think if you come up with Blue Darrians and fit them in what I consider a goofy OTU I think they'll work fine without you having to sweat all the minutia.

I do agree the Traveller OTU is a bit goofy, it is what it is though. lol

I like the minutiae, for example i am working right now on an art piece showing how the Blue Darrians originally built tanks out of common mining vehicles. I do it for me mostly, but if other people like it, I'm happy to share.

Personally I find the OTU too nice, all the races and the 3I is too foo-foo. IMTU after the 5FW, it is shown that Strephon is a weak Emperor, and a new group arrises amongst the nobility and naval high command called "the Young Gods" from a psuedo secret society they themselves call "Guardians of the Imperium". It much more gritty and realistic setting, with the 3I being more militaristic and aggressive, while propagandizing themselves as Free Humaniti, and espousing a philosophy that they are the only legitimate rulers of the Human Race.

After the 5FW the empire realizes it can't just let itself continue to be attacked, so the GotI come up with a plan of the "Grand Fleet" using what they call the Jump Fleet Strategy. They start a war with the Zhodani, The Zhodani Punitive Expedition, letting the Zhodani build forces and incur on the Spinward Marches, at which point a massive fleet jumps in and breaks the Zhodani fleet. This follows on with a massive attack on the Zhodani Consulate, tearing a huge chunk out which the restyle the Zhodani Republic, a client of and occupied by Imperial forces. Major planetary defenses are taken out in "Carrier Raids" through Zhodani space "Zod's" in military slang. This forces a peace treaty on the Zhodani as the the Grand Fleet seems to menace the Zhodani core worlds with deep strike attacking their industrial base. Then the Grand Fleet turns 180 degrees and attacks the Solomani Confederation in what they call the war of Re-unification, after they have done political intrigue to weaken the Solomani.

This leaves mop-up and counter insurgency work in the Zhodani Republic to the local forces of the Spinward Marches. The Thought Police being called "Mind Terrorists" and nobility "Slavers" and generally rounded up and executed. The local Zods fight it out though. In one story I'm writing the Zod insurgents hide a Grav Tank in the sewer of a town and when a patrol sweeps in the Zods blow the road and the Grav Tank hovers up out of the hole and only by the action of the Platoon Sergeant spinning a plate mine out of a "Contra-Grav Explosive" (like TDX but the explosive force travels opposite to the gravitational pull) knocks it out, losing his arm in the process. The arm can and will be regrown at a rejuve center, he questions going back, the war seems endless, but he does believe in the ideals of the 3I. He goes back for the brotherhood of his unit eventually, they need him and it is his place in life.

All of this disturbs the other races in the known galaxy. What will a new and aggressively expansionist "Empire of Humaniti" mean for them? They don't want to operate directly against the Imperium for fear of it's new strength, nor do they want to caste themselves in the light of being "anti-human", if and when the Imperium wins these wars. This opens up a huge number of new worlds for intrigue and adventure. Players can be either Carpetbaggers or Soldiers in the Zhodani Republic, sometimes against their will as the Imperium will take people convicted of crimes and commute their sentences to service, because the 3I needs warm bodies to fill out slots in administration and military units.

It's gritty, there really aren't any goodguys, nor manichean absolutes of good and evil, much like the real world.
 
Did you read the original discussion? Just because something is not lethal to humans in small quantities doesn't mean it's a good idea to replace your blood with it. At human body temperature hemocyanin is about one quarter the efficiency of hemoglobin. The replacement requires replacing the bone marrow with something that will produce... let's call them 'blue blood cells'... It also requires replacing each and every cell in the body with one that is able to interact with the blue blood cells. And to cap it all, these particular blue blood cells magically enable the Blue Darrians to survive BOTH in the temperature and air pressure of Entrope's surface AND in environments suitable for the survival of baseline humans.


Hans

In other words, it requires a simple genetic engineering solution of replacing the gene for hemoglobin with hemocyanin, and lower core body temperature. It also means a different set of tolerances for PPO2. Yawn. the technology to do so already exists, if only we had the genes in question mapped.

Humans can survive in PPO2 down to about 1/4th that of Terran norm, and up to twice that of Terran norm. The blue blood cells will not be inherently lethal. A few generations, and those who survive to reproduction will weed out the majority of incompatibility issues by selection pressure. And they will be more resistant to certain forms of cancer, too... Cancer cells require a lot more oxygen than normal cells...

Odds are they will have increased blood volume, and higher blue:white than darrian Red:white.

Hard part is the first few generations.
 
Did you read the original discussion? Just because something is not lethal to humans in small quantities doesn't mean it's a good idea to replace your blood with it. At human body temperature hemocyanin is about one quarter the efficiency of hemoglobin. The replacement requires replacing the bone marrow with something that will produce... let's call them 'blue blood cells'... It also requires replacing each and every cell in the body with one that is able to interact with the blue blood cells. And to cap it all, these particular blue blood cells magically enable the Blue Darrians to survive BOTH in the temperature and air pressure of Entrope's surface AND in environments suitable for the survival of baseline humans.


Hans

No, the Blue Darrians can't survive on the surface of Entrope without thermal suits and respirators. Where they can survive is in caves underground where the oxygen pressure and temperature is higher, though uncomfortable for T-norm humans. It doesn't require replacing every cell in the body, the main difference between Hemoglobin and Hemocyanin is the chemical process in how they bind the oxygen molecules. Changing the bone marrow is relatively simple as well, we do it now with Cord Blood Transfusions. For them it is just turning back the clock on the Master Genes back to the time of human evolution in which the change was made to hemoglobin, something I think might be much more simple for a TL16 microbiologist. It's more than just a swap of hemocyanin for hemoglobin, this is science fiction, but there is also degenerative effects as well such as anemia, hereditary hemophilia, less UV resistance, etc. .

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.:D
 
In other words, it requires a simple genetic engineering solution of replacing the gene for hemoglobin with hemocyanin, and lower core body temperature. It also means a different set of tolerances for PPO2. Yawn. the technology to do so already exists, if only we had the genes in question mapped.

Humans can survive in PPO2 down to about 1/4th that of Terran norm, and up to twice that of Terran norm. The blue blood cells will not be inherently lethal. A few generations, and those who survive to reproduction will weed out the majority of incompatibility issues by selection pressure. And they will be more resistant to certain forms of cancer, too... Cancer cells require a lot more oxygen than normal cells...

Odds are they will have increased blood volume, and higher blue:white than darrian Red:white.

Hard part is the first few generations.

To add to that, I will say that there are not any half Blues, it is recessive, either you have the genes for it from both sides or you don't. So if you have only half the genes then you are normal, but if you married a Blue you could have Blue children again.
 
In other words, it requires a simple genetic engineering solution of replacing the gene for hemoglobin with hemocyanin, and lower core body temperature.
no, "all" it takes is a complete redesign of the body chemistry. Of every single cell in the human body. Good luck with that, especially if you want to keep interfertile with baseline humans.

Hard part is the first few generations.
Verily. Especially the first generation, which is the one Dragoner's story has changing themselves from baseline Darrians to Blue Darrians.


Hans
 
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