When It's Cold I'd Like To Die (July 18th, 2005 interview with MWM on rpg.net)

[Malenfant]

You still stick to this attitude that planetary scientists don't know anything about the subject. When I pointed out that's wrong and that we do know a lot - and enough to show that what you were after wasn't possible - you started whingeing about how I telling you how to play your game.

You're the one out of us two with the attitude problem here, not me. I offered help, you claim it's bellittling and pretentious. Well screw you in that case. All you've ever done when I'm around since then is troll for a response. Get over yourself.

 

[flykiller]

quite a bit of gratuitous toxic discourtesy here, towards mwm and others. I'm wondering why hunter hasn't yet shut this down. is he around? is anyone around who has a finger on the delete keys?

in the meantime hopefully as few new members as possible are reading this.

 

[Malenfant]

I've deleted the most 'toxic' rant there, happy now?

Of course I should know better than to rise to Jeff's baiting and taunting, but then he's the one doing the poking, not me.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

You shouldn't shut honest discourse down. This is a discussion board after all. I have also learned to take heed of commentary from Lord Burns and Lord Mal in such matters. I wanted to get into this playtest as well, but reconsidered on viewing the initial materials. It looked like a lot of dice rolling to me, and hyper-specialized. Constrainingly so. Lord Mal may use a rough brush at times, but the man is passionate about his interests. This board and this game needs more of that. No sense in pussyfooting about.

Marc, a bad designer? Too subjective to tell. That's an individual consumer call. I personally thought things like High Guard and games like snapshot had a certain, distinct, elegance to them. They stood out in the market. Until MegaTraveller... then it seemed to blend in with all the Shadowruns and Palladiums to me. Me, I would've laid off the uberrules and the super-dark background and polished CT into a gem that you could stick anything onto, setting wise.

Should he be "Roddenberryied" and bricked up in an office somewhere? No way. Could the champ bring it out for one final fight? Isn't there always a montage of the champ getting back into shape after being out of the ring so long? If T5 is a "Victory Lap" then I say, Good Show, Marc! Three decades and counting! That means something, Lords. traveller has something that endures. What that is...?

As to the article,

1. That name dropping thing in the beginning was so geeky, I broke my geek bone. It hurt. A Lot!
It diminished us all a bit.

2. "Men of Honor" indeed! Which one, the Assassin? I can think of years of various scenarios that evolved into the crime of the 57th century more times than not at the hands of enterprising players... to say nothing for a certain shipcaptain I know...

3. Is it me, or is Marc sort of a "Grouchy McGrouchpants" in this interview? I mean, I know this Ross guy might cheese anyone off (hehe) but...

 

[hirch duckfinder]

yes mal, you are intelligent and have much useful to contribute but your presentation and communication is rude disrespectful and arrogant.

there are many threads i have been put off contributing to by your incessent petulance and vitriol, and i would guess there are others who start to read an otherwise interesting thread and decide not to get involved as it all seems inappropriate to what is, after all, a game.

 

[Malenfant]

My point - rationally put - is this, really: What is so great about Marc Miller? He's got this huge cult of personality around him among traveller fans, but for what? Step outside of that and start figuring out what he's actually done, and you'll find it's not actually all that great.


OK, in the 70s he came up with a new RPG that was innovative in its approach for the time (in that it was different to D&D, and was scifi). Nobody can deny that. Sure, it was simple at first. It was also the barest possible framework of a game for other people to design their scifi settings around - that's what CT was when it came out.

And then what? I'm sure I read something here on the boards saying that he wasn't a major player in Megatraveller (Frank Chadwick and others in GDW did most of the actual design work), and DGP did a lot of work for that game anyway. TNE he had little to do with at all.

Then along came T4 with Marc's name all over it, and that was generally viewed as a disaster. Poor layout and writing, lousy editing, not very good content - a very amateur production. Whether he was directly involved in that or just sold his name for the cover I don't know, but it's not a good impression.

Then GT and T20 came along, and again Marc had little to do with those other than lurking in the background greenlighting books.

Then, in a fit of 'genius', he decided to reprint the CT books in an awkward landscape format. Did he do anything new with them? Update them, perhaps? No. Just a straight photocopy and binding of the LBBs and that was that.

And now, he wants to write another version of Traveller - when we already have several versions of the game that are perfectly usable and largely complete (especially GT). Even the older draft of T5 wasn't anything inspiring - it looked very outdated and clunky compared to modern games.

Have I missed something here?


In 20-30 years, we've seen little from this guy. He's given us no evidence that he's kept up with what's going on in the RPG market today. He's shown no inkling of being aware of what people want from Traveller. He's shown no real evidence of being a decent game designer either. He's given no real reason why anyone NEEDS yet another new version of Traveller, particularly when GT and T20 have got the modern market sewn up.

Sure, he wrote CT, which has brought enjoyment to a lot of people over the years. But that enjoyment didn't come from him, it came from the people running and playing the game. Those are the ones you need to be grateful to, because god knows they're the ones that added their backgrounds or their interpretation of what little setting detail Marc gave us with the books in which to play in. But MWM's also brought a lot of frustration as people try and make sense of the hodgepodge contradictory background of Traveller, and he's made no attempt at all over the years to try to explain things or address those issues, and he shows no sign of doing that for T5 either.

That's what annoys me most really - that people claim that Marc is so awesome when he hasn't actually done anything to deserve that for over 20 years. And some people would lap up anything he does without question or any kind of critical assessment, regardless of its quality or whether they need it.

If you can look at all that and still genuinely think that the guy is a great designer and you'd you'd hang on his every word, and you think he is relevant to today's RPG market and can take Traveller in a direction that will get it lots more fans, then bully for you. I don't know why you'd think that, because I sure can't see it.

I mean, really - I want to know what people think is so great about the guy now - not what they think of the guy that was around 25 years ago. I think people have built up this 'legend' around him that is pretty unjustified.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Lord Mal may use a rough brush at times, but the man is passionate about his interests. This board and this game needs more of that. No sense in pussyfooting about.

Passion is appreciated. Rude and disrespectful discourse isn't appreciated. That is one of the core subjects here. The willingness to deal with problems or differences in either a constructive or destructive manner is an important choice for individuals to make on a forum, since that sets the tone for the conversation. Passion is not an acceptable excuse for juvenile behavior.

 

[Malenfant]

Passion is not an acceptable excuse for juvenile behavior.

...says the guy who thinks it's OK to bait someone and then prance off boasting about getting drunk and leering at women.

You're hardly in a position to label anyone 'immature' or 'juvenile'. Particularly given that you think it's OK to throw a strop when someone points out the flaws in your ideas.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I think you're being a bit unfair, Mal.

I wouldn't say there's a "huge cult of personality" around Marc, but you can't deny that he's had a significant positive effect on the lives of many people. I've been playing variations of the game he created for over 20 years, and had a lot of fun and made a lot of friends in the process. For that he will always have my gratitude.

"Then along came T4 with Marc's name all over it, and that was generally viewed as a disaster."

It was badly flawed, true, but I think IG was responsible for most of the problems.

"Then, in a fit of 'genius', he decided to reprint the CT books in an awkward landscape format. Did he do anything new with them? Update them, perhaps? No. Just a straight photocopy and binding of the LBBs and that was that."

He gave people what they wanted - a reprint of CT. I believe the books have sold very well. Updating them simply isn't practical.

I agree that he doesn't seem to have done much recently, and I'm a little unhappy with some of the early T5 drafts and the way the playtest was run, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a chance to fix the problems. The best - the ONLY - way to get the T5 we want is to work WITH him. If he decides to ignore our suggestions, well, at least we tried. At the end of the day it's HIS creation. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but at least give him a chance to write it before slagging it off.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
TNE he had little to do with at all.

One more reason to like him.

Then along came T4 with Marc's name all over it, and that was generally viewed as a disaster. Poor layout and writing, lousy editing, not very good content - a very amateur production. Whether he was directly involved in that or just sold his name for the cover I don't know, but it's not a good impression.

T4, while flawed, wasn't as bad as you make it seem. The quality was not uniformly bad, just somewhat uneven. And I think T4 had an important role in keeping Traveller alive and spawned BITS, among other things.

And now, he wants to write another version of Traveller - when we already have several versions of the game that are perfectly usable and largely complete (especially GT). Even the older draft of T5 wasn't anything inspiring - it looked very outdated and clunky compared to modern games.

A "modern game" like mid-80s GURPS?

Have I missed something here?

Yes, actually, though it is not only Traveller related, namely a number of boardgames and Wargames designed and co-designed by MWM, including some which I would call "classics".

Sure, he wrote CT, which has brought enjoyment to a lot of people over the years. But that enjoyment didn't come from him, it came from the people running and playing the game.

Okay man, now you're seriously losing it. What are you claiming next, that Traveller was a natural development that would have materialized anyway if Marc hadn't written it? It's becoming clear (to me at least) that you are now reaching into the realm of the absurd just to make your point of discrediting MWM. Besides ignoring that he did have a close involvement in the fleshing out of the OTU as well.

If you can look at all that and still genuinely think that the guy is a great designer and you'd you'd hang on his every word, and you think he is relevant to today's RPG market and can take Traveller in a direction that will get it lots more fans, then bully for you.

We're not "hanging on his every word".
We just don't have a parsec-sized chip on our shoulders when it comes to MWM. Personally, I am gonna take a look at T5 when and if it comes out, and judge it on its own merits. We're grown-ups and don't need to be saved from our own fanboy selves, thank you.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Tobias:

A "modern game" like mid-80s GURPS?

]

It's a damn sight more modern than CT was.

Okay man, now you're seriously losing it. What are you claiming next, that Traveller was a natural development that would have materialized anyway if Marc hadn't written it?

The OTU isn't exactly a complicated setting is it - it's a very bland, flavourless, generic scifi setting. It's big secret is a big, unoriginal cliche - that aliens took like from earth and seeded in through the galaxy. And as a setting, the "golden era" OTU is entirely dull and uninspiring - what fun, playing a bunch of retired has-beens ekeing out a living in a very dull, stable Imperium!

And don't give me that 'you should use your imagination to flesh it out' crap either. There's barely anything there to sink your teeth into to start with. (heck, books 1-3 didn't even have a setting, and just said "go read some scifi" - very helpful).

I find it rather telling that you sneer at the one incarnation of Traveller that did have a distinct flavour to it, that was actually an exciting universe with a unique feel to it.

It's becoming clear (to me at least) that you are now reaching into the realm of the absurd just to make your point of discrediting MWM.

And it's clear to me that you're a CT fanboy who doesn't see anything wrong with it. I don't believe you - or people like you - are capable of looking at the game objectively to see its flaws.

Besides ignoring that he did have a close involvement in the fleshing out of the OTU as well.

Yes, and look how well that turned out. Loads of contradictory adventures, rules and settings that he's made no effort to correct at all. Such genius!

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
It's a damn sight more modern than CT was.

A VW Kaefer is more modern than a Ford T. Doesn't make either one a modern car, now does it?

The OTU isn't exactly a complicated setting is it - it's a very bland, flavourless, generic scifi setting.

Actually, it's a lot of classic Sci-Fi stuff mixed together. Unoriginal or not, I like that.

I find it rather telling that you sneer at the one incarnation of Traveller that did have a distinct flavour to it, that was actually an exciting universe with a unique feel to it.

I am sure the World of Darkness also has a unique feel and an exciting universe. Just not one I like.
I am beginning to suspect that you fall into the category of "objective taste" people. It is rather simple: If I do not like the basic assumptions of a setting, then it can be as well written or fleshed out as it wants (where TNE was more fleshed out than MT, which is my favorite setting, I would like to know btw). I still don't like it.

And it's clear to me that you're a CT fanboy who doesn't see anything wrong with it. I don't believe you - or people like you - are capable of looking at the game objectively to see its flaws.

q.e.d.
Really, you should reconsider your stance. No one looks at a game "objectively". (Yes, that is an objective fact

) If you or anybody else could "objectively" figure out what makes a good game, you'd be set for life.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Tobias:

A VW Kaefer is more modern than a Ford T. Doesn't make either one a modern car, now does it?

No, but you wouldn't be able to drive a Ford T on today's roads, whereas you can do that quite well with a VW Beetle (I presume that's what a Kaefer is?)

Really, you should reconsider your stance. No one looks at a game "objectively". (Yes, that is an objective fact

) If you or anybody else could "objectively" figure out what makes a good game, you'd be set for life.

Of course you can look at it objectively. That means you're aware of both its strengths AND its flaws. Traveller has this pseudo-religious mystique among its fans (it's called 'canon' after all) who just plain can't see where the game is flawed. You might LIKE those flaws, but that doesn't stop them being flaws. For example, you may say that random character generation is a way to come up with an interesting background for a character, but either way you are still likely to end up with a character you don't necessarily want to play. The lack of player influence in CT chargen is a flaw. You may say that random UWPs can 'stimulate the imagination' but that doesn't detract from the fact that most random UWPs and systems are so unrealistic that they just plain can't exist. That's another flaw. And what about all the contradictions in various CT adventures and scenarios where they just don't tally up with the rules? (e.g. the early adventures)? Instead of trying to toss out the stuff that doesn't fit, people try and cram it all together into the same universe.

'Objectively', a good game is one that is logically designed, internally consistent, satisfying to play, and well thought out. Objectively, to be a popular game and bvring in new fans it has to appeal to the modern market too - otherwise nobody will buy it. CT may have some parts that are logically designed, but it sure as hell isn't internally consistent. It's satisfying to play only if you're willing to accept playing whatever character the dice give you, and most things were added as afterthoughts with no thought to how they'd give authors headaches years later. And CT has picked up very few new fans over the years - the majority of those buying the reprints are existing fans and collectors.

And from what little I've seen of T5, it doesn't seem to be going in a direction that is going to fix any of that, and it's certainly not going to be getting any new fans the way it's headed.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Of course you can look at it objectively.

Not if you are gonna do much more than count words...

Traveller has this pseudo-religious mystique among its fans (it's called 'canon' after all) who just plain can't see where the game is flawed.

Now who's out of touch with modern gaming? Do you seriously believe this is a Traveller-specific phenomenon?

You might LIKE those flaws, but that doesn't stop them being flaws.

Au contraire. Traveller is a game. A game's purpose is for its players to have fun. A flaw in a game is something that diminishes the fun. Ergo something you like about a game cannot be a flaw.
I once had a similar argument with someone about a computer game. He insisted it was "objectively" a bad game because it was sloppily coded. I could only shake my head, because it was fun as hell.

'Objectively', a good game is one that is logically designed, internally consistent, satisfying to play, and well thought out.

"Satisfying to play" is the only requirement. Everything else are just attributes that make the game satisfying to play to some people. CTs, MTs or T5s attributes may not be satisfying to you. Fine by me. But you are wasting time and increasing your heart disease risks by embarking on a crusade to tell others they shouldn't be satisfying to *them*.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Traveller is a skeleton that good Referees throw meat at, and hope it sticks. "Bad" referees "gnaw the bones" right out of the box. Traveller started its sputtering when we were forced to play the "Shattered Imperium". I say forced, because I think at one point whoever was doing it saw all these concrete setting games on the market, and thought of the schlockiest, darkest, and most militaristic background they could, in order to "compete".

Market research should not compromise quality, and nothing explains the degree of mistakes in MT and T4, considering you have at least 5,000 people to proof it for you.

 

[flykiller]

You shouldn't shut honest discourse down.

common courtesy, simple civility, and personal restraint of vituperation don't shut down honest discourse. they make it possible.

Traveller is a skeleton that good Referees throw meat at, and hope it sticks.

CT, MT, TNE, T4, GURPS, T20, T5, homegrown - same wheel, different hubcaps. doesn't matter much to the game. matters to a salesman though.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Ah, but you need the passionate, even the uncivil to counterbalance.

It most certainly does matter to a salesman. Market Identity is right up there with Quality. That's Seven versions of Traveller you have listed above. I can only wonder at how difficult it must be for someone new picking it up. I discount my Son, as he has literally grown up around it and exposed to the "Traveller Hydra" in some form or another... but he seems to favor the LBBs over the others.

I realize that not all versions of Traveller are still in print in the "latest edition" sense, but it still seems a huge amount of data to absorb for the neophyte, background wise.

How to market it to all's benefit? Who knows.

How compatible are the many versions of Traveller, aside from mechanics?

Beyond that, How compatible are the groups that work on the many versions of Traveller to each other?

Do they Compete with each other?

Do they conflict?

How do they work on things?

Do they run stuff by each other, irregardless of system, or is it more compartmentalized and "secretive"?

How do the different versions support Traveller on whole, beyond economics?

 

[flykiller]

Ah, but you need the passionate, even the uncivil to counterbalance.

passion != insistent rudeness. and no, we don't need exhibitionist incivility.

... it still seems a huge amount of data to absorb for the neophyte, background wise.

it is. either they absorb someone else's work or they do it themselves. there's no way around it.

which version is a minor problem. as a ref my biggest workload is drawing up the individual systems and the adventures therein. toss in deckplans, NPC's, and background, and I'm in over my head. don't have time to worry over the version - I couldn't consider versions and still run a game. versioning seems like solo gearheading to me.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Ah, but you need the passionate, even the uncivil to counterbalance.

Why? An arguement can be presented in a civil and respectful manner or a rude and petulent one, the civil and respectful manner will invite the reader to pay attention to the arguement presented while the reader will just tend to ignore the rude and petulent message because it is presented in a distasteful manner - yet the reader will remember the rudeness (not the message).

You can be passionate without being uncivil. The question is, do you want your message to be acknowledged or ignored? If the message is important enough to you, then you should try to present it in a manner where it will most likely be recieved well.

 

[bryan gibson]

Mal, see, as far as I can tell, you're biggest problem here is one of total self assurance on the one hand, coupled with what seems to be an utter moral outrage that whatever your opinion is, we just dont care.

It's all about presentation, and on three boards you have the same reputation. You don't hesitate to trot out your'e a "planetary scientist" (quoted simply cause I'm unsure of the meaning, Im assuming a geologist, or astronomer?) which I'm certainly inclined to grant. You know your subject, no doubt.

Your'e obviously intelligent - your opinions are solid, and you almost always have proofs. I even agree with several of them.

You've been in playtests, meaning you've had experience, and frankly, you've done good work. All I'll grant, and even respect.

The problemm is really this - you have to be the single most intellent, highly educated and most qualified asshole I know, bar none.

Like you said, why mince words?

and now you see how the one trait you so consistantly display completely outweighs everything else you say or do.( I do apologize for use of the word, but I can't honestly think of a less inflammatory one thats more accurate, I really wish I could)

The simple fact is, you just ain't happy unless you are behaving badly to those of us that really don't care what you think, because of you're attitude. So, if it bugs you that much, as it apparently does, could you perhaps just go away?

I wouldn't mind, really.If you won't play nice with the others, and since Hunter won't ban you, then allow me to invite you to exit stage left, please. Cause your antics are just plain old.

Frankly, I'm embarrassded for you. I make an ass of myself all the time, but at least I apologize when I realize it.