Who's on the Bridge?

[Plankowner]

2-4601: One little suggestion, I would think that the Gunnery configuration not be included in the "standard" bridge seat configuration. I don't believe that a single person is allowed to fly the ship AND shoot weapons. I don't have my books, but as an GM, I don't think I would allow it.

I agree with the multi-configuration stations. I envision each work station with 4 screens. 2 are normally used for the primary function and the other two can be reconfigured easily to some other function.

For example:
Pilot mode:
Screen 1 (main screen): Sensor Data of surrounding space with expected course superimposed.
Screen 2: Tactical screen with vector information on all bogies.
Screen 3: Hight Level maneuver drive info (Thrust level).
Screen 4: Tetras 4D or some other cool video game

Pilot/Engineer Mode:
Screen 1: Same as above
Screen 2: Same as above
Screen 3: Detailed Maneuver Drive Monitoring
Screen 4: Detailed Power Plant Monitoring

As I stated above, CJ Cherryh's Chanur books give a pretty good idea of using this kind of system.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Workstations have been fully reconfigurable since MT.

 

[Valarian]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
Workstations have been fully reconfigurable since MT.

Is that Windows MT?

 

[BillDowns]

What I envision on a bridge is:
1) a large, multi-window overlay of the "glass" (so it can be transparent during landings, etc) with configurable windows (a la...

Windows

);

2) At least 2 "command stations" for the pilot and co-pilot (I don't agree that a Scout can have just 1 crew, despite the book) (console + accel couch - 1dton each);

3) a "control station" for each bridge crew member (console + accel couch - 1dton each)

4) a console for eahc major subsystem (i.e. Maneuver, power, jump, life support, etc - 1/2 dton each)

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Originally posted by Valarian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
Workstations have been fully reconfigurable since MT.

Is that Windows MT? </font>[/QUOTE]That would explain Virus.

 

[JAFARR]

Once again we come to the conclusion of: NO DEFINATIVE ANSWER!

Lots of good answers with good reasoning behind them. Guess it all boils down to Bill's "It depends." "on a lot of things" if I might add my 2 centi- credits worth.

 

[Hemdian]

As already stated by other posters there will be differences between civilian and military, and between small and large ships. However, the MT ship construction rules specify bridge crew.

IMTU military ships use the watch system ...

Watch: A division of the day (usually 4 hours). Shipboard routine is organised around Watch periods.
2000-2400 - First Watch (aka Evening Watch)
0000-0400 - Second Watch (aka Mid Watch)
0400-0800 - Third Watch (aka Morning Watch)
0800-1200 - Fourth Watch (aka Forenoon Watch)
1200-1600 - Fifth Watch (aka Afternoon Watch)
1600-2000 - Sixth Watch (aka Dog Watch)

During alert condition times (combat, docking, etc) the bridge is fully manned. During quiet times 2/6 of the bridge crew are on a rotating overlapping double watch duty. IE, 1/6 work 1st and 2nd watch, 1/6 work 2nd and 3rd watch, 1/6 work 3rd and 4th watch, etc. However, upto half may be on errands elsewhere on the ship.

For example: an AHL cruiser has a crew of 413, of which 30 are bridge crew. During non-alert times that means 10 bridge crew are working (*atleast* 5 on the bridge, the rest elsewhere).

That's the theory, anyway.

Of course, IMTU right now, where the PCs are the only survivors of an AHL crew, Othix (a local Droyne 'king') has chosen the captain's command chair on the bridge as his new throne!

Regards PLST

 

[JAFARR]

Hemdian, sorry to disagree with your terminalogy, but a "dog" watch is a shorter watch used to rotate watches so that the same crew menbers don't always have the same watches.

Consider this: By current manning standards for USN, most ships run a "3 section" rotaton at sea (Of course we are talking military routines). This means you have one secton on duty and two sections off. Using 4 hour watches, the same crew has the same watch twice a day. If the normal work day is 8 AM to 4 PM, the section that has the 4 to 8 watch is shafted so to speak. They are on duty from 4 Am to 8 AM, but that means they are expected to be on station 15 minutes before that to get updated as to what is happening. Then they have a rushed meal period and return to "work" what ever that entails. At sea that usually means drills and training. They usually get off a little earlier than the other sections so they can get a hurried meal in time to be on their duty station 15 minutes early again to resume the 4 PM to 8 PM watch. The other sections actually get to spend half their work day as watch standers so they in effect get a 12 hour work day while the poor 4 to 8 ers get a 16 hour work day.

To relieve this, you split the 4 PM to 8 PM watch to to 2 - 2 hour watches called for reasons unknown to me "Dog watches". This is the traditional US Navy practice.

I was a nukie (nuclear power plant operator) on the USS Enterprise (got out in 1977 so it may have changed) where at least Reactor dept. had 6 hour watches and no work day unless the ship was at general quarters (battle stations). This gave you an 18 hour day with the ocassional senior watch standers lucky enough to have 4-section duty if there were enough qualified to allow it.
Trust me, 6 on and 12 off is much better than 4 on 8 off.

From what I have heard about civilian merchant ships the senior crew members work 8 AM to 4 PM, the middle (in seniority) level crew work 4 PM to midnight and the juniors get midnight to 8 AM all the time they are at sea.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
Consider this: By current manning standards for USN, most ships run a "3 section" rotaton at sea (Of course we are talking military routines).

Andy,

I agree very strongly with the proviso if fully manned. Manning levels change everything. In peacetime I'd say a merchant vessel has a better chance of being fully manned than a warship does.

I was a nuc too, went in a few years after you. Except for a very few periods, our enginerooms had 'split' watch rotations depending on seniority. Retention after the first 6 year enlistment was abysmal, so the less senior watches were perennially undermanned.

Normally, in one engineroom at one time we had some watches on 6x6s, 4x8s, and 4x12s. Newly qualified enlisted were on 6x6s, longer qualified enlisted on 4x8s, and senior enlisted/officers on 4x12s. All of our watches included work shifts so that fellow on 6x6s stood 12 hours of watch, worked for at least 6, and got ~5 hours sleep.

All I want to say is that watches and manning levels aren't set in stone. Just because that Type-T patrol cruiser is supposed to have a crew of 18, it doesn't necessarily follow that it has a crew of 18 aboard.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
Hemdian, sorry to disagree with your terminalogy, but a "dog" watch is a shorter watch used to rotate watches so that the same crew menbers don't always have the same watches.

To relieve this, you split the 4 PM to 8 PM watch to to 2 - 2 hour watches called for reasons unknown to me "Dog watches". This is the traditional US Navy practice.

Actually we got it from the Royal Navy and who knows where they got it from. Wooden ships and iron men and all that.

 

[JAFARR]

Maybe its because you're "dog" tired and need it to function.

Bill C. Were you subs or surface? I was on Enterprise and Nimitz. And BTW, while Nimitz was under construction , I even had some 12 section duty. Everyone worked Monday to Friday for a regular day and after hours the "duty section" stood a security watch in the building that housed our office space. As more of the ship was turned over to ship's crew, we had to stand security watches onboard. and the number of sections dwindled.

 

[Whipsnade]

Andy,

Surface, USS California CGN-36.

In M-Division, we were manned below 80%. Had our full complement of chiefs (that's E-7+ for the non-navy types) and nearly the number of 'career' E-6s alloted, but it was the 'indians' we were missing; the first enlistment blueshirts. We went over two years without a first time re-enlistment and 'bled' personnel as if an artery hade been cut. When you consider that something like 95% of nucs are sub volunteers, but only ~70% get orders to subs and the rest were permanently 'surfaced' you can see the trouble.

The best rotation I ever saw was 4x8s and that was after qualifying Engineering Watch Supervisor which is normally an E-7 watch. The best in-port duty I ever saw was three section and that included yard periods.

Thanks to the 'push button crow' I made E-6 in six years, but that was due in large part to the surface nuc ratings being so woefully undermanned. The subs were packed, 10 year E-5s were the norm down there. Surface side was wide open. Towrds the end of my time in ('87), they began luring sub nucs surface side with stories about a short surface tour helping their promotion chances. We had a chief and two blueshirts come 'up'. After their short tour, the chief and one blueshirt didn't get orders sending them back to subs however. Oops.

I don't know what manning is like now. There are more CVNs but all 9 CGNs have been scrapped. The sub fleet has been drawn down too. Towards the end of my time, there was talk of finally doing away with the sub and surface nuc 'split'. The idea had been asinine in the first, all nucs go through the same training and only a few with certain medical conditions can't serve on subs.

Anyway, all I keep trying to point out in this thread and others like it is that manning levesl in any military organization are rarely what some plan on paper says they should be. GMs should feel free to short crew ships and count ~700 men in that 1000-man regiment because that's how it works in the real world.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Plankowner]

I got out of US Sub service in 89, so I saw a lot of what Bill C was discussing above. In Engineering (the only part that really counts anyway ) the junior-most watches usually started a patrol 6-on/6-off. It SUCKED. By the end of the patrol (80-90 days), we were usually able to get all of the senior watches and about half of the middle watches to 6-on/18-off. We didn't really use dog watches. The normal rotation was 6-on/12-off, and trust me 18 hour days SUCKED too. Your body just never got used to the off rhythms.

IMTU, I use a system that was inspired by CJ Cherryh's Merchanter Series of books. She used a "main-day" and "alter-day" system. I use 4 watches of 6 hours each. The crew is split into 2 Sections and then each Section is split into 2 Watches. During a normal day, a person will be on watch for 6 hours, work for 6 hours, then have 12 hours off for recreation and sleep. Senior (Command) personnel, probably don't stand a watch at all. The CO doesn't stand a watch. Depending on the job, others may not have true Watches either (gunners, stewards), but they will have a 12 hour work day.

This is much lighter than the current military duty, but I figure that if you are going to have people living on your ship for years at a time, something has to give.

I also use the idea of alert conditions. Going through a "normal" jump sequence it works something like this:

Shutdown Watches: Engines/PP shut off. Using external power and life support (in port/docked).
1/4 of crew is aboard (one Watch Section from above). They stand a few roving watches, maybe someone always on the bridge, maybe not.

Maneuvering Watches: Maneuvering to/from 100D limiit.
2 Watches are on-duty (1 Section). The rest of the crew is up and manning damage control stations. EVERYONE is alert because this is the most dangerous time of normal travel.

Jump Watch: In Hyperspace (1 week)
This is the "Normal" Watch/Section rotation. Bridge is barren, with perhaps only 1 or 2 watchstanders. Engineering is running at pretty full strength, but the rest of the ship is Roving Watches.

Battle Stations: Weapons Manned and Everything Hot.
Similar to the Maneuvering Watch above, but some of your DC party is now manning weapons.

Back to Maneuvering Watch for the trip from 100D to orbit.

If a ship is not shutdown during in-port, then the PP has to stay up and Engineering will be on normal "Jump Watch" rotation while the rest of the crew gets to play.

Civilian Ships operate on basically the same rotation, but their staffing levels may be lower. This usually comes out in the design since they have smaller drives and fewer weapons. IMTU, Gunners ALWAYS have a second job that is not required during Battle Stations; such as Steward or DC party member.

My experience with Weapons systems is that they may not need a lot of watch-standing people, but they need a lot of maintenance people.

I also agree with Bill C that 100% staffing is somewhat of a pipe-dream. I would think that Civlian Tramp Freighters would almost always be chronically short handed. Standing watch for 12 hours straight is not going to be fun, so some groups (probably Engineering Again

) will not be able to follow the above schedule and might be on a 3 Watch rotation or whatever, but the DESIRED level is 4-watch rotations.

I don't worry about the dog watch because out in space day and night don't mean as much. Also, using the Main-day/Alter-day idea, each of the 2 Sections would consider their work time as "DAY" and the other Section's time as "NIGHT". Only planet-side would day and night really have any meaning and then most of the crew is not working anyway.

Anyway, my thoughts.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
2-4601: One little suggestion, I would think that the Gunnery configuration not be included in the "standard" bridge seat configuration. I don't believe that a single person is allowed to fly the ship AND shoot weapons.

Hmmm... But small craft pilots are allowed to both fly their craft, fire a single offensive weapon, and control up to three Sandcasters. And, LBB2 (IIRC) says that a single crewmember can control TWO shipboard positions, but it will reduce her respective skill levels by one.

I agree with the multi-configuration stations. I envision each work station with 4 screens. 2 are normally used for the primary function and the other two can be reconfigured easily to some other function.

Sounds very Vilani in flavor - everything is hardwired

. I was thinking about the station having one main screen, as well as input devices (a joystick which also functions as a "mouse" in non-flight applications, pedals and a multi-function keyboard), with the software defining the function, and the screen possibly divided into windows as needed; to switch a function you simply load a different application program. Ofcourse, higher TLs will have holo-display instead of a screen, and maybe even gloves used as an input device, i.e. manipulate the holo-display with your hands.

 

[JAFARR]

Bill & Plankowner, I got out in '77. There were still a lot of carry overs from draft days when I was in service. I suspect you were seeing the results of "all volunteer military". Too bad that good ole USA never developed the idea of Professional Military as an honorable profession like England did. I look at Traveller with that viewpoint.
Military service in the US has generally been abused and denigated in our lifetime by the media. Look at all the attention Patty Shehan (not sure about the spelling) got while the men and women putting their lives on the line for us have generally been treated like mud.
I was proud to put 8 years in active service for my country during the Vietnam era and generally felt that most folks at home really thought I was the scum of the earth if I believed the view I got in the news (I didn't believe or trust the news media then and I still don't today. About the only type of news I trust is sports and weather.)

 

[Plankowner]

I remember being in Norfolk, VA in the early 80's and passing a sign in someone's yard "Dogs and Sailors keep off the grass". Honest to God.

I figure the Traveller Military is much more like the military during WW2 or somewhat like today. Those people were HEROES. In the Imperium, you are holding back the Psionic Hordes of the Zhodani or defending the Imperium from the Facist Solomani.

 

[aramis]

I prefer to think of the Traveller Military as being more like that of the 1700's: an honorable job to lift oneself out of the slums; usually safe, but potentially lethal.

 

[kafka47]

I think that is one take on it, Aramis, the other is of course tied into prestige and the need for the nobility to cement ties between one another. Therefore, there is an aspect to the military that resembles a social club in which the gentlemen/women of the Empire must do their part.

Therefore, scattered across the military are second sons/daughters & bastards who do not stand a chance of inheriting the fief and have to fight one of their own.

 

[aramis]

Yes, that too. Proper Gentlemen do their stint of Gov't Service...

Exactly where I should have gone with that thought...

(Decides not to listen to windshield wipers saying "Dumb-guy, Dumb-guy, Dumb-guy..." anymore)

 

[Spiderfish]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
Bill & Plankowner, I got out in '77. There were still a lot of carry overs from draft days when I was in service. I suspect you were seeing the results of "all volunteer military". Too bad that good ole USA never developed the idea of Professional Military as an honorable profession like England did. I look at Traveller with that viewpoint.
Military service in the US has generally been abused and denigated in our lifetime by the media. Look at all the attention Patty Shehan (not sure about the spelling) got while the men and women putting their lives on the line for us have generally been treated like mud.
I was proud to put 8 years in active service for my country during the Vietnam era and generally felt that most folks at home really thought I was the scum of the earth if I believed the view I got in the news (I didn't believe or trust the news media then and I still don't today. About the only type of news I trust is sports and weather.)

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

I don't think I need to say much else.