Why do some people want Traveller to fail?

[Imperial Planetologist]

The polls may tell you more about the kind of gamers frequenting each site than they will which edition is favored.

RPG.net is made up of early adopters who like to be near the bleeding edge; without even looking at the poll I can tell you right now that MgT will have a big lead there.

The whole premise of this thread is flawed, but since that horse has already beaten pretty thoroughly, I'll just add that as my one swing and move on.

 

[Echo]

I think that polls are indicating that posters on other sites are a lot more receptive to the Mongoose edition than some on this site may be.

The 'hybrids' factor is reduced in significance when the Mongoose entry appears to be getting more votes than the rest of the other categories put together (as appears to be the case on two - I can't get to the third). These polls are limited, of course, and could change over time. But backed up by the information about strong sales, I think it's reasonable to assume that it is a game being played and enjoyed.

 

[Vile]

Right, now that we've established that polls prove nothing except to the converted and no-one's opinion is worth more than anyone else's, can everyone go back to their favourite version's forum and stop slinging sand in the sand pit? This thread needs a lock, and quickly. :nonono:

 

[Border Reiver]

Right, now that we've established that polls prove nothing except to the converted and no-one's opinion is worth more than anyone else's, can everyone go back to their favourite version's forum and stop slinging sand in the sand pit? This thread needs a lock, and quickly. :nonono:

Right On, Brother!

 

[Allensh]

Right, now that we've established that polls prove nothing except to the converted and no-one's opinion is worth more than anyone else's, can everyone go back to their favourite version's forum and stop slinging sand in the sand pit? This thread needs a lock, and quickly. :nonono:

I agree with that. I started it because I was frustrated with a certain individual. I should not have started it in the first place.

Allen

 

[Allensh]

I think that polls are indicating that posters on other sites are a lot more receptive to the Mongoose edition than some on this site may be.

The 'hybrids' factor is reduced in significance when the Mongoose entry appears to be getting more votes than the rest of the other categories put together (as appears to be the case on two - I can't get to the third). These polls are limited, of course, and could change over time. But backed up by the information about strong sales, I think it's reasonable to assume that it is a game being played and enjoyed.

The poll was started here (I think) because of an assertion that players of MGT were largely being drawn from players of editions other than CT, and that CT players were not changing. It was then expanded to see what some of the more neutral/non-Traveller based sites would produce as to which version is being used.

Of course, how the person who made the original assertion knows this, since I seriously doubt he has actually heard from every person who plays either MGT or CT to compile this evidence is quite beyond me. But...there it is.

The poll does seem to show that MGT and CT are together far more popular than any other versions among the respondents. There were many good things about later versions, but maybe this shows in hindsight that GDW shouldn't have messed with what works..or maybe it shows nothing of the sort.

Allen

 

[rust]

While I find the polls very interesting, I am very much afraid that there
will be another thread much like this one about the meaning of the re-
sults ...

 

[tbeard1999]

Yes, it is. Rather mild, but still across the line.

Ty: dial it down a bit, please. And no more *cough* references, please.

Oh all right. You never let us have any fun; Johnny's parents let him stay up as late as he wants and flame anyone he wants.

On a more serious note, I'd like to note to fans of MGT that some consideration of your goals might be in order.

If you (not You, Aramis, just an affectation of mine) genuinely want to see MGT succeed, then you might want to consider whether automatically attacking the motives of its critics is the best way to win new converts. As a professional advocate myself, I've found that there's often a profound difference between argument and persuasion. And where subjective claims are concerned, it's helpful to recall that you can discuss subjective claims, but you really can't debate them.

If you're genuinely curious about the motives of a certain critic, why not simply ask him about it? Seems to me that insinuating that he is irredeemably biased, fanatically loyal to an old game, etc., makes it unlikely that you'll get to the heart of the matter. Of course, if you just want to lash out, then such tactics work well for that.

So you folks who lash out at critics of MGT may well be doing little to help the game. Consider this -- most gamers are reasonably bright people. If a critic is full of unreasonable bias, irrational hate for MGT, etc., I think that most gamers will grok this pretty quickly. The same is also true for fanboys; they pretty much destroy their own credibility as well.

FWIW, here's what I think my own motives are.

First, I'm a game mechanics wonk. I'm an inveterate amateur game designer and have self-published a well regarded set of rules (A Fistful of TOWs). Over the years, I've distributed at least a dozen sets of free rules and most feedback has been positive. So I'm interested in MGT from a mechanical standpoint (and note that most of my critiques have focused on specific mechanics and the statistical qualities therein). MGT is not "just another RPG" to me due to item 2 below, so it gets my attention.

Second, I'm a long-time Old School Traveller fan. Traveller and The Fantasy Trip have been my favorite RPGs since the late 1970s and I have a deep, abiding interest in Traveller and the direction it's taking. And since I think that MGT (in some form) is likely to be the final version of Traveller, I desperately want it to be good. As I've learned in my own game design experience, a game design is never finished--it's abandoned. And IMHO every game can be improved. To draw from my own experience, each edition of A Fistful of TOWs was good. And each was better than the previous edition.

Literally the day after the last version went to press, I started compiling a list of things I wanted to improve. The result of that will be the next version, which should be a major improvement of an already well-regarded rules set. But here's the thing -- most of the improvements came from candid (and occasionally brutal) criticism from players. Yes, some of the criticism was poorly conceived. But I never attacked critics for their motives and never allowed supporters of FFT to do it. Criticism is just too important for a game designer and I have little patience for folks who try to peremptorily quash it.

While MGT may not yet be the RPG that I want to play, I do think that it can become that game. If it's already the game you want to play, then congratulations. But for the long term health of Traveller, refrain from trying to quash criticism. Because criticism, far more than accolades, will improve a game design, if the designer is willing to admit his own fallibility. I think that Mongoose is that kind of company. So give them the chance to improve their product. They're grownups; they can suss out whether criticisms are well-founded or not.

That said, I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with criticisms of the game. Ideally, such disagreements should be specific and reasonable, but this is a hobby after all. In any case, debate is part of the game improvement process. But impugning the motives of folks who dislike a game sabotages that process. As are the various "you're completely wrong, but you're too unreasonable to discuss this with" tactics.

 

[rust]

So you folks who lash out at critics of MGT may well be doing little to help the game.

My problem with this is that it is a "debate" between very small numbers of
people on both "sides", the "critics" as well as the "fanboys", while the posts
of both sides tend to be a nuisance for the huge majority of people on this
board, who are neither interested in this "debate" nor willing to participate
in it, I think.

So, if the "combattants" would open up their own thread for their "debate",
and stay there, hardly anyone would complain. But the "skirmishes" tend to
appear in almost each and every MGT thread sooner or later, and then have
a tendency to derail the thread for quite a number of posts.

 

[Kyle Aaron]

So far this reads to me as,

"It's not that we hate Mongoose Traveller, it's just that it sucks!"

It's just people being grumpy grognards, holding nostalgically to the old and being suspicious of the new. That's alright, I feel the same about D&D, the newest edition I've played is AD&D1e.

Embrace your inner Crusty Old Grognard, be not ashamed of your grumpy oldmanness.

 

[tbeard1999]

My problem with this is that it is a "debate" between very small numbers of
people on both "sides", the "critics" as well as the "fanboys", while the posts
of both sides tend to be a nuisance for the huge majority of people on this
board, who are neither interested in this "debate" nor willing to participate
in it, I think.

So, if the "combattants" would open up their own thread for their "debate",
and stay there, hardly anyone would complain. But the "skirmishes" tend to
appear in almost each and every MGT thread sooner or later, and then have
a tendency to derail the thread for quite a number of posts.

Given that this particular thread began as an open attack on the motives of MGT critics, it's hard to agree that it was "derailed"... And I note that it was started by a fan of the game, not a critic.

And you do have the option of simply ignoring a thread that you dislike.

 

[coliver988]

My problem with this is that it is a "debate" between very small numbers of
people on both "sides", the "critics" as well as the "fanboys", while the posts
of both sides tend to be a nuisance for the huge majority of people on this
board, who are neither interested in this "debate" nor willing to participate
in it, I think....

As one in the vast middle (in my case, a very wishy-washy center) I agree: the vocal extremes tend to be the loudest and not necessarily representative of the majority (hey - just as in real life!)

While reading most of these threads (Hi, I'm Craig and I'm a Traveller addict) I don't really see anyone wanting RTT[1] to fail. Some people really hate it, some people really like, and like most of Traveller, people will pick what they like out of it & use that. I'll probably never buy the core book, but I will buy the supplements (I'm a CT kinda guy, but I've a lot of the GURPS books simply because they add a lot of really interesting fluff). But even those with deepest criticisms (and I agree w/TBeard - you have to be able to criticize things for them to get better - fawning fanboism will kill anything equally well) have not implied that they want it to fail: they state in various degrees of animosity that RTT is just not the game they want, and usually give fairly concise reasons for that. Many of which I agree with, many I don't. But it makes for good reading - I like to see various opinions, even those I don't agree with (I blame my liberal arts degree )

[1] I just like saying RikiTikiTraveller...

 

[rust]

And you do have the option of simply ignoring a thread that you dislike.

Unless some personal feud that has been brewing for months turns the
thread I liked into one I dislike - and this is the problem I see. :nonono:

Of course you are right about this thread here, it had a sign "Please come
here to shout at each other !" in its title.
However, some people (of both sides) tend to shout at each other in other
threads without such an invitation, too.

 

[scout_harris]

Hmmmm.. if I thought MGT was a crappy version of Traveller, I'd be hoping that it would hurry up and fail so we could get on to building the next hopefully better version :devil:

Yes, I can see it now.. the new version! It shines with a holy light as you pass it in the shelves of the stores. Heavenly music sounds as you open the wonderfully laid out covers, and see inside the best and most perfect rules ever to be written in Traveller, and I would know, this is is it! The version wars are over!

 

[rust]

Yes, I can see it now.. the new version! It shines with a holy light as you pass it in the shelves of the stores. Heavenly music sounds as you open the wonderfully laid out covers, and see inside the best and most perfect rules ever to be written in Traveller, and I would know, this is is it! The version wars are over!

Whatever you did smoke, I want the same ! :rofl:

 

[scout_harris]

It's getting late, I get sillier the more tired I become. I really should ban myself from posting beyond midnight.

 

[rust]

I really should ban myself from posting beyond midnight.

No, please do not !

I really miss more sense of humour on this board ...

 

[Allensh]

I think my motives in starting this thread have been misinterpreted.

I am NOT trying to quash criticism of MGT. However, I WAS complaining about said criticism being injected into MANY if not ALL threads that I have seen where the game is being talked about! It annoyed me. if you don't like the game or parts of the game, fine. I have seen now that at least one of the major critics simply can;t be reasoned with at all and I am sick of trying.

This thread needs to be closed down. It was a mistake from the get-go, has not benefitted me or anyone posting in it and should be put out of its misery. I'm sorry I started it.

Allen

 

[Echo]

My problem with this is that it is a "debate" between very small numbers of
people on both "sides", the "critics" as well as the "fanboys", while the posts
of both sides tend to be a nuisance for the huge majority of people on this
board, who are neither interested in this "debate" nor willing to participate
in it, I think.

So, if the "combattants" would open up their own thread for their "debate",
and stay there, hardly anyone would complain. But the "skirmishes" tend to
appear in almost each and every MGT thread sooner or later, and then have
a tendency to derail the thread for quite a number of posts.

For the record, my own stance is that I am not prepared to waste energy engaging with somebody who simply wants a confrontation, anymore. If somebody likes to spend his time drumming up opprobrium out of every new Mongoose Traveller release, or the enthusiasm of fans towards it, then fine. But don't expect me to respond to it or respect it.

 

[tbeard1999]

I think my motives in starting this thread have been misinterpreted.

I am NOT trying to quash criticism of MGT. However, I WAS complaining about said criticism being injected into MANY if not ALL threads that I have seen where the game is being talked about! It annoyed me.

Since the purpose of a forum is typically to discuss things, your annoyance is perplexing. If you object to any criticism of MGT, then you should label your thread "No Criticisms of MGT Allowed" or somesuch.

But if you start a thread discussing the merits of MGT, then I can't imagine how you could expect that there wouldn't be complaints, disagreements, etc., along with compliments. And I'd note that it usually takes two to have an argument. So when someone says "I don't like MGT" and then gets jumped on by some fan, it is probably the fault of both of them. And if the critique is reasonably stated in relatively adult terms, then the fault lies mostly with the fan, not the critic. Of course, the reverse is true as well. But you seem to want to blame the MGT critics more than the (at least) equally obnoxious fans. Sorry, but I don't see that the fans of the game (as a group) have much room to complain about rudeness in these threads.

if you don't like the game or parts of the game, fine. I have seen now that at least one of the major critics simply can;t be reasoned with at all and I am sick of trying.

If you can actually address the factual assertions of those you disagree with, then do so. But seriously--it really weakens your credibility when you fail to do so and try to excuse that failure by claiming those who disagree with you are unreasonable.

This is especially galling when we consider that you started this thread with an overt attack on the motives of those you disagree with.

And just for the record, I note that you have still refused to address the points I made about your opening assertions:

First of all, your assertion that a game "has" to evolve is (a) conclusory; (b) unsupported by evidence and (c) not conceded by everyone.

Second, even if we grant the first statement, you've failed to demonstrate that MGT shows much "evolution". In point of fact, I'd argue that it is an almost completely derivative product that has little in the way of innovative mechanics or concepts. This, of course, is No Problem for me, since I have generally found that the bullsh*t quotient of a game design (and the degree of design incompetence) is often directly proportional to its claimed "innovation", "evolutionary leaps", etc.

You've failed to address either of these specific criticisms.

In addition, you seem to exclude a very obvious explanation for someone not liking MGT -- maybe they just don't like it.

Care to respond?

This thread needs to be closed down. It was a mistake from the get-go, has not benefitted me or anyone posting in it and should be put out of its misery. I'm sorry I started it.

If you can make your case then do so. If you can't, then admit it or stop posting. But I don't think that insulting folks, then appealing to the moderators to end the thread is a very admirable tactic. I hope the moderators don't take the bait.