Why do they change the Spinward Marches UWPs?
- Thread starter Able Baker
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bozzutoman
SOC-12
I find it ironic that folk experience such religious zealousness over OTU "canon"... since each and every GM that runs a campaign in the Traveller universe is intrinsically creating an alternate "non-canonical" one.
Besides there being several inconsistent UWPs/descriptions from published materials, it strikes me as especially odd to cling to such notions considering the entire Gateway Quadrant as licesnsed and developed by Judges Guild was simply thrown out...
Besides there being several inconsistent UWPs/descriptions from published materials, it strikes me as especially odd to cling to such notions considering the entire Gateway Quadrant as licesnsed and developed by Judges Guild was simply thrown out...
I find it puzzling that some people mistake practical concerns over maintaining a common game background with zealousness, since stuff that pertains to an alternate campaign setting is much less likely to fit anyone else's campaign setting than stuff everybody knows about.
Hans
I would call it zealousness when an attempt to even considering changing it is fought with active sabotage, as apparently happened to MJD.
I find it interesting that a lot of people seem to be declaring that they actively distance themselves from the OTU as a result of this sort of issue. At this point I would say that the OTU is a greater liability to Traveller, rather than beneficial in any way.
I find it interesting that a lot of people seem to be declaring that they actively distance themselves from the OTU as a result of this sort of issue. At this point I would say that the OTU is a greater liability to Traveller, rather than beneficial in any way.
In theory, a body of 'canon' knowledge is good for any setting. You really need one if there's to be more than one writer. However, the Traveller canon has enough contradictions and broken parts that it can be used to argue all seven or eight sides of the same point... it really, really needs a good hard cleaning up.
The problem here is that a small but noisy (and sometimes downright aggressive) segment of the game's fans have so much emotional investment in 'their' game that they can't bear to see anything that contradicts their vision. And of course since there are conflicting opinions about which version of canon applies, and what interpretation is the right one, etc... well, it can get messy.
Related to this is the behaviour of a segment of the fan base, who don't actually write the game materials but can and will tell all and sundry how they should be/should have been done. Some of the hate mail I've had is quite staggering... and some of it was for quite trivial reasons.
Eg, when it was announced that I was writing for SJG's GURPS TRaveller line, some people who didn't like the idea of GURPS Traveller sent me some pretty unpleasant mail... and that was before I'd typed a word. The very concept of GURPS Traveller upset them, so they took it out on the prospective authors.
It's this sort of people who cause the real 'canon' issue. Most players can agree to differ and just play the game, which means that canon debates can be handled in a civlised manner. But then there's the sort who demand that I be murdered* because I wrote something that didn't match their vision of how the game's setting should be.
*Yes, really. And it was pointed out that saying this on an open list was a felony in the poster's own country. He was offered the chance to retract the statement, but instead said 'no, I mean it'.
Yup, this man wants me dead because I made some stuff up for a game.
That's the real problem with canon, not canon itself.
That, and the fact that the process of getting new products approved so that they fit with canon is both broken and riddled with politics.
In all, it's hardly surpising that nobody wants to jump into this 55-gallon-drum of worms.
The problem here is that a small but noisy (and sometimes downright aggressive) segment of the game's fans have so much emotional investment in 'their' game that they can't bear to see anything that contradicts their vision. And of course since there are conflicting opinions about which version of canon applies, and what interpretation is the right one, etc... well, it can get messy.
Related to this is the behaviour of a segment of the fan base, who don't actually write the game materials but can and will tell all and sundry how they should be/should have been done. Some of the hate mail I've had is quite staggering... and some of it was for quite trivial reasons.
Eg, when it was announced that I was writing for SJG's GURPS TRaveller line, some people who didn't like the idea of GURPS Traveller sent me some pretty unpleasant mail... and that was before I'd typed a word. The very concept of GURPS Traveller upset them, so they took it out on the prospective authors.
It's this sort of people who cause the real 'canon' issue. Most players can agree to differ and just play the game, which means that canon debates can be handled in a civlised manner. But then there's the sort who demand that I be murdered* because I wrote something that didn't match their vision of how the game's setting should be.
*Yes, really. And it was pointed out that saying this on an open list was a felony in the poster's own country. He was offered the chance to retract the statement, but instead said 'no, I mean it'.
Yup, this man wants me dead because I made some stuff up for a game.
That's the real problem with canon, not canon itself.
That, and the fact that the process of getting new products approved so that they fit with canon is both broken and riddled with politics.
In all, it's hardly surpising that nobody wants to jump into this 55-gallon-drum of worms.
Interesting . . .
I pulled the UWP data from Miller's revised Spinward Marches map pack, dropped it into my database, and compared the results to a dataset labeled "1105 data." (I would need to double-check, but I think the source for this data is Supplement 3.)
The changes appear much more pervasive than I would have guessed. Of the 272 systems in the Marches, there were changes to 103 UWPs.
Many of these changes were changes to "social parameters." The tech level changed in 30 systems, and the starport changed in 19 systems. In general, these changes seemed to go backwards -- lower tech and starport ratings in Miller's newest data. The "new" data is labeled "Second Survey," and as such may be intended to be a snapshot of an older version of the Marches (1065) than detailed in Supplement 3 (1105). It looks like the tech and starport values may have been degenerated either randomly or using some kind of formula.
As far as "physical parameters," I don't think atmosphere changed in any system, and Hydro only changed in one system: Keanou (2411) went from hydro of 2 to 0.
Planetary size was far and away the biggest change. It looks like 68 systems changed, and in general the change was to make the mainworld a little larger. I assume this was a systematic change intended to make atmo and size more consistent with planetology.
I pulled the UWP data from Miller's revised Spinward Marches map pack, dropped it into my database, and compared the results to a dataset labeled "1105 data." (I would need to double-check, but I think the source for this data is Supplement 3.)
The changes appear much more pervasive than I would have guessed. Of the 272 systems in the Marches, there were changes to 103 UWPs.
Many of these changes were changes to "social parameters." The tech level changed in 30 systems, and the starport changed in 19 systems. In general, these changes seemed to go backwards -- lower tech and starport ratings in Miller's newest data. The "new" data is labeled "Second Survey," and as such may be intended to be a snapshot of an older version of the Marches (1065) than detailed in Supplement 3 (1105). It looks like the tech and starport values may have been degenerated either randomly or using some kind of formula.
As far as "physical parameters," I don't think atmosphere changed in any system, and Hydro only changed in one system: Keanou (2411) went from hydro of 2 to 0.
Planetary size was far and away the biggest change. It looks like 68 systems changed, and in general the change was to make the mainworld a little larger. I assume this was a systematic change intended to make atmo and size more consistent with planetology.
God, I hope we don't get MORE worlds with primitive people that require high tech to even stay alive for 15 minutes... THAT would be really bad.
I think most of the tech level changes were only 1 or maybe 2 levels. The starports changed more dramatically.
All it takes, in many cases, is for the TL to drop 1 or 2 in order for the situation to be illogical...
Not to add too much fuel to the fire.... but,
"I was sitting in my Scout ship, looking at this little ball of dirt; been out here for more time than I care to admit (even to myself); and have more survey "stuff" to do after I jump out of here.
"I really have had a difficult time accomodating the tolerance of that hydrographic sensor.. (was that 72.9% or 79.2%?) and I am getting tired of having to hand-jam this "stuff" because the interface seems to have lost its cable (besides, watching those old 2D movies was much better than having to keep moving those cables; now where did that cable go???).
"The point is the data I provide to feed the "Imperial Survey" is done by "professionals" that make absolutley certain that there are no errors, using the best maintened equipment and the latest sensor techonolgy. These professionals are extremely well trained and their integrity is above reproach and unreachable by the influence of the most powerful political figures of the systems that they survey."
--- Candid notes of interview with = name withheld =, after receiving offer to purchase the Brooklyn Bridge and Statue of Liberty...
My point is that the data is only as good as the guy or gal feeding the system...
"I was sitting in my Scout ship, looking at this little ball of dirt; been out here for more time than I care to admit (even to myself); and have more survey "stuff" to do after I jump out of here.
"I really have had a difficult time accomodating the tolerance of that hydrographic sensor.. (was that 72.9% or 79.2%?) and I am getting tired of having to hand-jam this "stuff" because the interface seems to have lost its cable (besides, watching those old 2D movies was much better than having to keep moving those cables; now where did that cable go???).
"The point is the data I provide to feed the "Imperial Survey" is done by "professionals" that make absolutley certain that there are no errors, using the best maintened equipment and the latest sensor techonolgy. These professionals are extremely well trained and their integrity is above reproach and unreachable by the influence of the most powerful political figures of the systems that they survey."
--- Candid notes of interview with = name withheld =, after receiving offer to purchase the Brooklyn Bridge and Statue of Liberty...
My point is that the data is only as good as the guy or gal feeding the system...
Absolutely. But, when the system in question is in a civilized area and has MAJOR, self evident errors... Well, go look at the CIA fact book. You won't find known countries listed as having high tech manufacturing when the civilization is barely above Iron Age...
MJD, if your still dropping in on this thread; Does the GURPS Spinward Marches contain the same UWP's or does it use a different system? And, was it allowed to fix any errors?
It seems to me that setting canon should be edition dependent; that would fix a lot of these problems. GURPS Traveller got its own ATU, MGT should have its own too. That way folks that use other systems can't complain about changes to OTU "canon" and the new publisher is free to make some "improvements" they feel is necessary to make the game marketable to new gamers (or old gamers willing to embrace a "re-imagined" Traveller.
There could be some limits imposed on the "wiggle room", but leave some creative freedom.
It seems to me that setting canon should be edition dependent; that would fix a lot of these problems. GURPS Traveller got its own ATU, MGT should have its own too. That way folks that use other systems can't complain about changes to OTU "canon" and the new publisher is free to make some "improvements" they feel is necessary to make the game marketable to new gamers (or old gamers willing to embrace a "re-imagined" Traveller.
There could be some limits imposed on the "wiggle room", but leave some creative freedom.
I wholeheartily agree with this.
I'm not sure about GURPS Marches. It was drawn from the same data, but there were some errors in the first draft (possibly caused largely by Neil's dyslexia) which were corrected along with other changes in the final manuscript. But then they published the draft anyway.
Oops, but not my oops.
The GURPS data SHOULD be the same because it's from Supplement 3 (I think, it was a long time ago) and so is the Mongoose data.
Oops, but not my oops.
The GURPS data SHOULD be the same because it's from Supplement 3 (I think, it was a long time ago) and so is the Mongoose data.
