Why do they change the Spinward Marches UWPs?

[Plankowner]

So which version of the Spinward Marches is the "canon" version that shouldn't be touched?

There are differences between the published (talking CT only here) version in the LBB and in the SMC, hell, there's an entire system missing in the SMC that is in the LBB.

So which one do you use?

To make it simple, is Regina TL A (like the LBB) or TL C (like the SMC)?

100% agreement is required here...

 

[casquilho]

So which version of the Spinward Marches is the "canon" version that shouldn't be touched?...

I think you should use mine. :rofl:
Sorry, I could not resist.

Back on topic: The more I read the more I believe they should select a list and finalize it. Then with Marc's blessing it should be the "final" and real list. Warts and all from now on. Then let each GM change and mess with it in their own games as much or as little as they wish.

Daniel

 

[tbeard1999]

I think you should use mine. :rofl:
Sorry, I could not resist.

Back on topic: The more I read the more I believe they should select a list and finalize it. Then with Marc's blessing it should be the "final" and real list. Warts and all from now on. Then let each GM change and mess with it in their own games as much or as little as they wish.
Daniel

If Marc's agreeable, I think that's a good idea. If not, then I'd suggest the latest printing of whatever version of Traveller is gonna be agreed to contain the "official" canon.

 

[Foxroe]

<Sulks in corner, stroking LBS3 lovingly, whispering to self>

Do not listen, my precious. What they say they know not...


-Fox

 

[daryen]

Hunter,

Now that you are officially the "mouth of Marc", I think Plankowner's question (which is the same as the one I asked before) is completely fair and valid.

So, since no one is ever allowed to make changes to canon UWPs, which UWPs are actually canon?

 

[hunter]

So, since no one is ever allowed to make changes to canon UWPs, which UWPs are actually canon?

That's news to me. Got a link?

As to which UWPs are canon that's one of the things I imagine Marc will take into account Martin's thinking behind whatever choice he made and then decide.

 

[RandyT0001]

According to MJD there will not be any major changes and/or tweaks to the SM data. A particular set will be used as a basis for his work as decided by MWM and Mongoose.
http://www.traveller.comstar-games.com/viewtopic.php?t=1648&start=32

 

[hunter]

According to MJD there will not be any major changes and/or tweaks to the SM data. A particular set will be used as a basis for his work as decided by MWM and Mongoose.
http://www.traveller.comstar-games.com/viewtopic.php?t=1648&start=30

Thanks. Well that certainly settles the question of any changes being made. My bet will be the Spinward Marches Campaign as the baseline.

 

[Foxroe]

I think that it depends on the timeline for MongTrav's SM campaign (don't know when it takes place). If it's prior to the 5th Frontier War, then I think they would be more inclined to use Supp3.

-Fox

 

[Plankowner]

The setting is 1105, pre FFW.

The problem with using Suppliment 3 is that it doesn't include all of the advanced atmosphere or government codes. It also doesn't include stellar data or the PBG extension. Go back too far and you loose all the improvements from LBB6, MT, T4, TNE etc.

Since there is an entire solar system different between S3 and SMC... it will be interesting to see what is selected.

Obviously in different eras, the social values can (and should) change. You can't expect Regina in Milieu 500 to be EXACTLY the same as Regina in TNE. The starport, population, government, law level and tech levels have to fluxuate depending on the era, but the physical data shouldn't change. However, having said that, if saturation nuclear bombing were to take place on a world, I could see the Atmosphere code changing from 6 to 7 possibly... But anything like that should be explained by the story or an adventure.

The citizens of Regina wait in silent antici.....pation to learn if their beloved Subsector capital will be able to build Jump-2 and Jump-3 ships tomorrow....

 

[daryen]

The setting is 1105, pre FFW.

Since there is an entire solar system different between S3 and SMC... it will be interesting to see what is selected.

Don't forget that RSB changed all of the stellar data for the Spinward Marches.

Seriously, the correct answer is to use the 1117 data from RSB, and then adjust the allegiance data to match 1105. I just don't know if the various people arguing here actually understand the issues underlying the question or not.

The citizens of Regina wait in silent antici.....pation to learn if their beloved Subsector capital will be able to build Jump-2 and Jump-3 ships tomorrow....

Which gets to the whole of the issue. Everyone who is arguing that "no changes can be made" don't realize all of the changes that have already been made. They apparently have no idea that S3 and SMC are different. They have no idea that all MT era UWPs are unchanged from the pre-Rebellion states, no matter how silly. They have no idea that the RSB retconned all of the stellar data.

 

[Ishmael]

an odd thought

I had this thought while driving to work this morning...

If CT spinward marches reflects pre-FFW
and a later version's changes are explained as UWP's for post-FFW

Were official UWP maps ever made for after 'Hard Times'? Or was it purposefully left open and un-done.
What are the UWP's for post TNE? for the start of the 4th Imperium? Or will there be none given T4's avoidance of the issue be going back in time?

Perhaps players might revolt at the changes if such a 'snapshot' of the remains of the Core's UWP's changes too much.

 

[jrmapes]

Don't forget that RSB changed all of the stellar data for the Spinward Marches.

Seriously, the correct answer is to use the 1117 data from RSB, and then adjust the allegiance data to match 1105. I just don't know if the various people arguing here actually understand the issues underlying the question or not.

To me, not only is this the correct answer but it is and should be the obvious answer for the foreseeable future if there will be continued restrictions on changing the core UWP codes.

I will gladly concede the changes that many of is were hoping for in exchange for simple consistency within milieus.

I can as I always have done, use MTU which is really the OTU with most of the changes that were proposed over at The TAS Forums already in place, plus other changes based on EDGs stellar and planetary design systems for our home games.

Of course, when we put out material for public consumption we can use he OTU. But man... It would be nice to have an agreeable OTU to use for such things. I'm sure some feel that is no big deal and further, some have thier games tied onto one version of the UWPs or another -- I don't know maybe I am thinking too much like a game writer where consistency is a not just a good thing, it should be demanded.


oh well

Jerry

 

[daryen]

To me, not only is this [1117 from RSB] the correct answer but it is and should be the obvious answer for the foreseeable future if there will be continued restrictions on changing the core UWP codes.

One would think so, but to the various frothers, rational thought is an alien concept. Therefore they stick with the two least useful sources of data: S3 and SMC. It really just shows how little they actually understand of the game they claim to love.

But then, it is silly of us to expect any sort of rational thought from the irrational.

Of course, when we put out material for public consumption we can use he OTU. But man... It would be nice to have an agreeable OTU to use for such things. I'm sure some feel that is no big deal and further, some have thier games tied onto one version of the UWPs or another -- I don't know maybe I am thinking too much like a game writer where consistency is a not just a good thing, it should be demanded.

Again, one would think so ...

 

[hunter]

One would think so, but to the various frothers, rational thought is an alien concept. Therefore they stick with the two least useful sources of data: S3 and SMC. It really just shows how little they actually understand of the game they claim to love.

Engaging in group attacks on those you disagree with usually isn't conducive to discussion. Particularly when you engage in the same kind of 'frothing' you complain about.

 

[daryen]

Engaging in group attacks on those you disagree with usually isn't conducive to discussion. Particularly when you engage in the same kind of 'frothing' you complain about.

OK point taken. I went to far. The whole "frothing", and irrational comments were, themselves, irrational frothing. True enough.

However, my ending point still stands, and is defensible.

To expand, the reason I argue for the need of change to the UWPs is because I understand how they disagree with established canon and how it has been used in the various adventures I have seen and found. I also argue for it because of the observed mutability of canon as it has changed and evolved over time.

Those I have seen arguing against change, seem to not appreciate or understand these aspects of "canon". They seem to have no understanding of the history of the history of the OTU.

 

[hunter]

OK point taken. I went to far. The whole "frothing", and irrational comments were, themselves, irrational frothing. True enough.

However, my ending point still stands, and is defensible.

I've got no problem with the point you are trying to make.

 

[Thuban]

Those I have seen arguing against change, seem to not appreciate or understand these aspects of "canon". They seem to have no understanding of the history of the history of the OTU.

I own and read the same sources you have, and I understand your point quite well. What you neither see nor appreciate is that what's important to you is not necessarily what's important to everyone else, and that it's just as easy for you to work around those inconsistencies in canon as it is for someone else to work around a cleaned up canon.

I'm perfectly okay with all of those wonky results, really - what's important to me is something else entirely, as Rhialto already outlined earlier. I can't say it any better than he did.

 

[Klaus]

If the issue of working around wonkiness is as easy to deal with as working around a corrected system, then there is absolutely no excuse not to correct it.

There really is no good reason at all to have nonsense worlds in the OTU, at least at the very high frequency they are at right now. A few here and there is interesting. 2 or 3 per subsector is ridiculous.

Since no one version of the Spinward Marches actually agrees with another, and that even the adventures and old JTAS contradict each other on occasion, let this be the corrected, logical, and definitive version. Be true to the spirit of the Marches, rather than the inconsistent numbers.

I don't really see how anyone can reasonably argue against that?

 

[robject]

OK point taken. I went to far. The whole "frothing", and irrational comments were, themselves, irrational frothing. True enough.

When Mike froths, you know he's very concerned indeed. In person he seems pretty understated.