Why pay more for less (from What you like about MGT)

[atpollard]

I see your point. You're saying that MT is superior and it's less expensive. I agree. And, I'd say that CT was superior and less expensive, by way of the $35 buck CT-CD ROM, to MGT as well.

While CT is my personal favorite (I like the simplicity of The Traveller Book), one should really be fair when comparing CT to MT and MgT:

CT suffers from CharGen schizophrenia with the original LBB1-3 CharGen creating very different results from the LBB4-7 CharGen. MT deserves commendation for managing to create both basic and advanced CharGen Systems that produced compatible results. MgT deserves lauds for creating a single CharGen system that incorporates the features of both the basic and advanced CharGen of CT and MT.

If a player or Ref wants a universal task system, then CT is really off the table. Both MT and MgT do have universal task systems (although I leave it to others to determine which is ‘better’ or even the relative merits of each). One could add one of the Fan Generated Universal Task Systems for CT, but then CT offers no advantage over ANY other system which COULD be house ruled into whatever you wanted it to be.

If creating Starships is your passion (as it is mine), then CT ‘LBB2’ offers the ultimate in simplicity and CT ‘LBB5:High Guard’ offers a beautiful design system (the perfect balance of power and complexity IMHO) yet the two design (and associated combat) systems are hopelessly incompatible. MT offers a system with too much detail in some areas (any calculation or series of calculations that impacts only the third or fourth decimal place of the final cost, weight or power is a waste of effort) and too little detail in other areas (I can’t count the number of unexplained items in the design tables). I find MgT Starship creation rules to resemble CT LBB2 on steroids – all of those LBB5:High Guard and MT goodies appear to have been ported into a CT:LBB2 like system.

MgT offers one thing that neither CT nor MT can; new material. Prior to the arrival of MgT, Gurps and T20 offered new products with decreasing frequency. Avenger was a good source for 1248 Era material (which I would find more useful if Marc would release the TNE CD so I could read the background without collecting it piecemeal), but 1248 died with the license sunset. Avenger (and other Indies) now publish new material for MgT. The same cannot be said for either CT or MT.


* LEGEND:
CT = Chassic Traveller
MT = MegaTraveller
MgT = Mongoose Traveller

 

[aramis]

Can't take a PDF to a printer and get a color copy for less than $100...

then your local printers are not normal.

Besides, most of the PDF games are B&W.

 

[tbeard1999]

You admit MgT is very close to CT and MT, you admit you need to use older rules to fix MgT flaws, you could have pruned the MT skill list on your own, and a munchkin-friendly task system is no real improvement, so why is it that you've shelled out ~37 USD for the core rules and ~22 USD apiece for the supplements?

Well, MGT *is* new and shiny.

That is, until you get into the atrocious/non-existent editing, ridiculous weaponry (shuriken catapults in Traveller; give me strength), etc. Kinda like a new car with a really lousy engine...

You could have bought all of the CT and MT rules and supplements on CD-ROMs for 35 USD each. What is it about MgT that made you pay more for less?

New and shiny.

And therefore, obviously superior.

 

[mbrinkhues]

While CT is my personal favorite (I like the simplicity of The Traveller Book), one should really be fair when comparing CT to MT and MgT:

CT suffers from CharGen schizophrenia with the original LBB1-3 CharGen creating very different results from the LBB4-7 CharGen. MT deserves commendation for managing to create both basic and advanced CharGen Systems that produced compatible results. MgT deserves lauds for creating a single CharGen system that incorporates the features of both the basic and advanced CharGen of CT and MT.

If a player or Ref wants a universal task system, then CT is really off the table. Both MT and MgT do have universal task systems (although I leave it to others to determine which is ‘better’ or even the relative merits of each). One could add one of the Fan Generated Universal Task Systems for CT, but then CT offers no advantage over ANY other system which COULD be house ruled into whatever you wanted it to be.

If creating Starships is your passion (as it is mine), then CT ‘LBB2’ offers the ultimate in simplicity and CT ‘LBB5:High Guard’ offers a beautiful design system (the perfect balance of power and complexity IMHO) yet the two design (and associated combat) systems are hopelessly incompatible. MT offers a system with too much detail in some areas (any calculation or series of calculations that impacts only the third or fourth decimal place of the final cost, weight or power is a waste of effort) and too little detail in other areas (I can’t count the number of unexplained items in the design tables). I find MgT Starship creation rules to resemble CT LBB2 on steroids – all of those LBB5:High Guard and MT goodies appear to have been ported into a CT:LBB2 like system.

MgT offers one thing that neither CT nor MT can; new material. Prior to the arrival of MgT, Gurps and T20 offered new products with decreasing frequency. Avenger was a good source for 1248 Era material (which I would find more useful if Marc would release the TNE CD so I could read the background without collecting it piecemeal), but 1248 died with the license sunset. Avenger (and other Indies) now publish new material for MgT. The same cannot be said for either CT or MT.


* LEGEND:
CT = Chassic Traveller
MT = MegaTraveller
MgT = Mongoose Traveller

Question: What new material for Traveller(read: The OTU) did Mongoose deliver so far? We got a few ships/stations in Scouts and some new weapons in Merc(1). The Adventures/Modules (Beltstrike, Prison Planet) are not new, those have been done for CT (Bowmans Belt, Prison Planet).

OTOH we still lack parts of the construction systems (The whole vehicle block), extended system construction and extended trading rules.

(1) That may or may not fit in the OTU

 

[Whipsnade]

Now Bill, I think I've done my part to justify my purchase of MGT.

Saundby,

Thank you for taking the time to write that all up. It is precisely the type of answer I was looking for when I asked the question!

I have both versions of the core rules, Mercenary, High Guard, 760 Patrons, and Traders & Gunboats. Like you with satellite sports packages, there's little I've found in any of the books to justify their cost to me.

That's the kicker. I haven't found MgT's worth yet. I haven't found something about it, beyond my "completist fervor", that makes it worth the price yet. Pocket Empires and, to a lesser extent, Imperial Squadrons "justified" my purchase of most of another marginal rules set, T4. I haven't heard about or seen those supplements in MgT which would, like PE or IS, make purchasing it worthwhile.

I truly find it puzzling when MgT devotees act as if the Mongoose version is the one that finally made Traveller "work" for them. It's essentially marginal rewrite of MT. Yes, the task system has been streamlined in view of nearly 25 years experience with task systems, but is something as simple as a task system worth shelling out nearly 35 bucks?

Six different major versions of Traveller already exist in varying forms of accessibility. You can buy all of CT and MT for roughly the price of MgT's core rules and people continually point out how much MgT resembles MT. So why shell out money for something that isn't really new? Why shell out money for something that is shoddily researched, poorly written, and riddled with typos?(1) Why shell out money for something that is being misused?

Your response to those questions have helped me understand why people are buying MgT and the answer boils down into two broad categories:

- Advertising, and
- Because they can


Regards,
Bill

1 - T4 was much the same, but was "redeemed" by the two supplements I mentioned.

 

[CosmicGamer]

At the local store what did I see? Traveller? Whats that? I pull the book off the shelf and think it is interesting. What the heck, I have a few bucks, I'll buy it.

(this story was fictional and any resemblance to people real or fictional is pure coincidence)

Back to reality.
It was by pure accident that I found out about the new version of Traveller. I had a few bucks and was searching for a computer SciFi game. I thought MgT was the only new version since CT. Really, I did. It had been a long time since I had heard of Traveller and even longer since I played. I did a little research and discovered the different versions and still decided on MgT. Why? As was said - it was new and shiny. I wasn't going to get all the versions to do a side by side comparisons, and I figured the newer version would:
1) Be updated. I recalled the computers of CT and thought about how far our own computer technology had advanced making the 'futuristic' ones of CT a bit dated. I thought the new version would have a variety of updates to computers, medicine, weapons, and whatnot.
2) Include more. From research, I knew the MgT version had more careers than the CT LBB 1-3. I thought it might also include more in other areas too. I did know that there were supplements to CT. At the time, I did not know there was a single CD with more stuff than I could imagine.
3) Have the kinks worked out. I thought a new product would have the advantage of learning from the old and have less issues.
4) Be easier to find people to game with. My research discovered that many players of previous versions were snapping up the new version and like my story at the top of this post, I felt you could find new players and be more likely to get some store support (in house games and whatever else) with the new version.

Results:
1) I was disappointed there wasn't more.
2) I believe there is more than CT LBB 1-3, but certainly not an all inclusive book. More than enough to start playing though.
3) hmm
4) The only in person Travellers I've found were of the MgT persuasion.

Overall I think it was the right decision, even if the only reason is #4. Playing the game and having fun is what it's all about. I'd like to add that I moved since 11 months ago when I got MgT and in both locations I only found groups playing the new version.

 

[Whipsnade]

You won't be happy until we yank the line, will you?

Matt,

Seeing as you're Mongoose's shill here at COTI, I'll respond to this remark. That way you can take my comments back to Mongoose.

- I won't be happy until Mongoose produces something that makes MgT worth the effort. I've wrote about how T4 wasn't worth purchasing until Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons were released. Mongoose hasn't released any similar supplements for MgT yet and seeing what I've seen of MgT so far, I'm not holding my breath.

(Please note that when I say similar, I'm not saying similar in content I'm saying similar in effect. I could just see you people immediately announcing "Mongoose Empires" or "Mongoose Squadrons" in an attempt to produce something of worth.)

- I also won't be happy until Mongoose fixes it's original mistake. Despite the various blurbs going back as far as the First Three LBBs, Traveller has never been a set of truly generic sci-fi rules. The technological assumptions alone prevent that. TNE and T4 remedied this somewhat with the release of FF&S, but no Traveller version was ever truly generic.

When Mongoose made it's first announcement about "returning Traveller to it's roots" and using it for different settings, I hoped for the best and feared for the worst. I hoped that Mongoose would take Traveller's mechanics and then use them to write a generic rules set. I feared that Mongoose would simply mail it in, take Traveller's mechanics, add a few bells and whistles, and them use Traveller in different settings regardless of whether Traveller and that setting actually fit together.

Do you need to guess which path Mongoose took? Was it the path that required work and patience to produce a robust and flexible rules set which could support a range of widely varying sic-fi settings? Or was it the quick and sloppy path that merely slapped a tarted up set of rules together with incompatible settings in a rush to earn a buck?

(Given the editing, writing and research I've seen in all MgT products, "quick and sloppy" is a kind description. You guys are vying with Imperium Games and T4 for the Bulwer-Lytton Cup.)

Thanks to Mongoose, the already jumbled Traveller setting is being further damaged by ill considered additions made only with an eye towards supporting incompatible future settings. We now have shuriken hand catapults in the Traveller setting and artillery pieces with ranges measuring in hundreds of kilometers with more damage yet to come.

Thirty years ago Traveller was just a set of rules. It quickly changed into something else however and Mongoose has never understood that. More damningly, Mongoose has never tried to understand that. This shouldn't be surprising. After all, your Traveller line editor has freely admitted he doesn't like science fiction.

Hopefully this is both short enough and informative enough for you to bring back to your superiors at Mongoose, short enough for them to bother to read and informative enough to present the issues as others see them.

Who knows? Maybe they'll listen.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Icosahedron]

FWIW, I haven't bought MgT yet. I intended to, placed an order with Amazon for the Pocket Edition and got a 'cannot locate' back. I suspect it was more or less exactly the time that Mongoose did a 50% price hike on the book...

I'll probably get a second-hand one for the tenner I intended to pay, sooner or later.

Anyway - why I decided to buy it:

It's Traveller.
It is (was) priced just about within the range I'd pay for a good supplement in the gamecon bargain bins.
It's breadth suggests there's a good chance there's something in it I can make use of.
It might stimulate ideas for some new houserules for CT.

That's basically all the usual reasons I browse the bargain bins for Traveller stuff.

Plus -
It might replace CT as my Traveller ruleset of choice.
(OK, very small chance, but it's possible - with a cinematic roll, a good skill DM and lots of Karma points...)

BTW, good call on the new thread Aramis.
Not saying that to be a crawler, or to be condescending, but just cos I thought it was the right decision and you guys seldom get praise for making a good decision.

 

[CosmicGamer]

At the local store what did I see? Traveller? Whats that? I pull the book off the shelf and think it is interesting. What the heck, I have a few bucks, I'll buy it.

(this story was fictional and any resemblance to people real or fictional is pure coincidence)

Back to reality.
It was by pure accident that I found out about the new version of Traveller. I had a few bucks and was searching for a computer SciFi game. I thought MgT was the only new version since CT. Really, I did. It had been a long time since I had heard of Traveller and even longer since I played. I did a little research and discovered the different versions and still decided on MgT. Why? As was said - it was new and shiny. I wasn't going to get all the versions to do a side by side comparisons, and I figured the newer version would:
1) Be updated. I recalled the computers of CT and thought about how far our own computer technology had advanced making the 'futuristic' ones of CT a bit dated. I thought the new version would have a variety of updates to computers, medicine, weapons, and whatnot.
2) Include more. From research, I knew the MgT version had more careers than the CT LBB 1-3. I thought it might also include more in other areas too. I did know that there were supplements to CT. At the time, I did not know there was a single CD with more stuff than I could imagine.
3) Have the kinks worked out. I thought a new product would have the advantage of learning from the old and have less issues.
4) Be easier to find people to game with. My research discovered that many players of previous versions were snapping up the new version and like my story at the top of this post, I felt you could find new players and be more likely to get some store support (in house games and whatever else) with the new version.

Results:
1) I was disappointed there wasn't more.
2) I believe there is more than CT LBB 1-3, but certainly not an all inclusive book. More than enough to start playing though.
3) hmm
4) The only in person Travellers I've found were of the MgT persuasion.

Overall I think it was the right decision, even if the only reason is #4. Playing the game and having fun is what it's all about. I'd like to add that I moved since 11 months ago when I got MgT and in both locations I only found groups playing the new version.

I'd like to add
5) OTU I was confused by all the OTU discussions on these forums and didn't want to be burdened with having to locate and read every scrap of information available. I thought the MgT version would include what was needed of the OTU.

Result:
5) OTU? MgT Core Rulebook is very lacking in information. At first I was disappointed. I was still totally lost when reading many forum posts. GM's for some older versions of Traveller may have universes that have been created over decades of playing and it is difficult for someone new to join in on the fun. GM's for MgT seam to be more willing to work with new players and players of any previous version too. The universe is young and we can explore it together.

 

[lucasdigital]

"Why pay more for less"?
You know, sometimes less IS more.

I'm not going to waste time trying to change anyone's entrenched opinions, I'll just carrying on enjoying the Mongoose edition. It may not be perfect, but what would the perfect edition of Traveller be? Probably the one that you rewrite to your own needs and tastes (and wasn't that always rule number one?)

I've played Traveller since the Autumn of 1982, and I've owned and played every edition. I can safely state without fear of contradiction that it doesn't matter which edition of the game you play. The quality of Traveller comes from what happens around the gaming table, not from a particular set of game mechanics. I bought the MgT core rules because I was too impatient to wait for delivery of my Traveller5 CD. I found some elements pleased me greatly, other elements looked like a regrettable departure from earlier editions. So what? It's a fresh take on Traveller, ideal for attracting new players, who just might have a different perspective on what works, as they approach CT/MT/TNE and T4 from the opposite direction.

 

[atpollard]

Question: What new material for Traveller(read: The OTU) did Mongoose deliver so far?

(New)
Fiddler's Green
Golden Age Starships 5: Archaic Small Craft and Space Stations
One Crowded Hour
Spinward Salvage LIC
Supplement One: 760 Patrons (good or bad, but not a rehash)

(Revised and Updated)
Golden Age Starships 1: Fast Courier
Golden Age Starships 2: Corsair
Golden Age Starships 3: LSP Modular Starship
Golden Age Starships 4: Sword Worlds Patrol Cruiser
Supplement Two: Traders & Gunboats (more new deckplans)


But that actually misses the point:
When is the next new Classic Traveller product expected? (Never.)
When is the next new MegaTraveller product expected? (Never.)
What chance is there for a new (OTU) product from Mongoose within the next year? (Good to Very Good.)

Could MgT:Babylon 5 have 'stuff' of use to a Traveller Referee?
Could MgT:Hammer's Slammers have 'stuff' of use to a Traveller Referee?
Will they be compatible with the MgT Traveller rules system?
(Yes, to all three.)

If 'New' Traveller Products is to be limited to such a narrow definition that it only includes an advancement of the OTU timeline, then T5 is your only hope.
If 'New' Traveller Products is broadly defined as any new rules or equipment compatible with an existing Traveller Rules set, then I must conclude that MgT offers the best chance of offering a 'New' Traveller Product. (T20 and Gurps have historically contributed, but have not published much lately.)

As was the case with the 1248 material for T20 (technically systemless), much credit is due the folks at Avenger for keeping the flame alive.

 

[Kilgs]

Odd, I thought this post was about what we LIKED about Mongoose...

I like the snappy pictures of each three branches for every career. Some of them are hokey but it gives it a bit more life. I love the Events table (not so much in the newer books though). The ship rules are getting better and remaining simple. Combat is easy and fun. Everything runs smoooooothly.

Hehehe... I just realized that I was the one in the inappropriate thread. Oops!

 

[aramis]

Bill:

MGT compares to MT only in terms of power level and integration of a task system.
The MGT Task system is less flexible than MT.
The MGT Craft Design only covers ships 100 — 2,000Td, expanded to 5*— 1,000,000 in HG, but covering only spacecraft. MT covers everything from gravbikes and motorcycles thrugh 1,000,000Td Battleships, expanded to include aircraft, ornithopters, canoes, and steamboats, plus having rules for non-gravitic spacecraft.
The MGT system design adds a few small items, breaks the OTU by adding new effects of LL, and only generates mainworlds. The MT system builds whole systems. With 3rd party expansion, it generates cultures, religions, and political groups, too.
The MGT system has a "streamlined" mass combat system that is only vaguely related to the personal scale combat. MT has a mass combat system in an expansion that produces mass combat, with only a few pages of extra rules, but using the same stats and proceedures as personal combat.
MGT has lots of deckplans, but they are unusably poorly detailed in the PDFs.

For $35, you get all of MT but the hyperextended world detailing...

Now, for me, MGT characters are very nice; I prefer them over MT, but only just a touch. However, the rest of it I can leave.

 

[Whipsnade]

Hehehe... I just realized that I was the one in the inappropriate thread. Oops!

Kilgs,

You were in the right thread at first and I was in the wrong thread at first.

My "wrong" comment and your "right" comment were then shifted to this thread where my "wrong" became a "right" and your "right" became a "wrong".

Don't worry, my head hurts too!


Regards,
Bill

 

[Supplement Four]

It's cool that both CT and MT are available on CD-ROM, but a lot of people prefer actual books. And a lot of people want to be able to actually order a book or walk into their store and buy one.

So...buy the CT mega books that Far Future publishes. CT is more expensive that way, but you do get the book...and it's still a heck of a lot more bang for the buck than what you get with MGT (in both quality and quantity of material).

You won't be happy until we yank the line, will you?

I prefer that you guys get your act together with regards to Traveller and produce something that is indisputable as a "must have".

I'd like to see the quality go up, not only in terms of editing, but in terms of content. I don't want to feel that the Traveller being written by Mongoose was cooked up over the weekend by someone just throwing words on a page, trying to meet a deadline, without any idea of what Traveller "is".

I want you to dazzle me. I want you to excite me. I want you to make me eat my words about what I've said about MGT in the past and have me yelling, to everyone I know, how GREAT Mongoose Traveller is.

No, I don't want you to pull the line. What I want is for you to stop delivering milquetoast, instead feeding me the best steak I've ever had in my life.

I want you to do to Traveller what the new Star Trek is doing to Trek.

I want you to give me Excellence. What you're giving me is Nemesis--something that is liked by a niche but not capturing the world.

I'd like you to surprise me and live up to that challenge.

I want you guys to do with Traveller what you did with Conan. With Conan, you captured the flavor and atmosphere of Howard's gritty universe and made the best version of d20 I've ever seen (and, I really dislike d20...but, you hit it out of the park with that game).

I want....that.



(BTW, it's interesting you single out me when I am one of but many who decry Mongoose Traveller. Heck, just look at the responses.)

 

[aramis]

More important about the CT Big Floppy Books: it's still cheaper than printing out the contents of your CD at kinkos.

 

[Supplement Four]

More important about the CT Big Floppy Books: it's still cheaper than printing out the contents of your CD at kinkos.

....I print mine at work. :devil:

 

[tbeard1999]

Bill:

For $35, you get all of MT but the hyperextended world detailing...

I have only three major complaints with MT (and all are addressable).

1. Too much errata. Hard to imagine that GDW -- a company formerly known for its quality and professionalism -- could create such a mess. Fortunately, this can be addressed, especially in this day and age of MT CD-ROMs. (Indeed, I'd be shocked if the MT faithful haven't already produced a fully corrected version of MT for private use).

2. Didn't like the combat system. However, I found that my Striker-derived combat system worked fine in MT. My current Combat System C will work as well (as will the T4 derived system that I've used). So not an unresolvable problem.

3. Vehicle design seemed like a serious pain, but that could just have been because of the errata. I'd sure like to see a MT vehicle design spreadsheet.

IMHO, MT was a near-miss. A second edition, with integrated errata, might well have been a world beater. Sadly, GDW was seduced by The New Error...

Minor quibbles:

I detested the Rebellion. But MT can be used in a non-Rebellion setting, so I never considered it a serious objection.

I prefer roll-high systems (TFT excepted). Not a big deal to fix.

So MT could have been a real contender IMHO.

But you've hit upon another major problem that I have with MGT -- it's a lightweight. In other words, the useful content density in MGT is *far* lower than CT or MT.

 

[tbeard1999]

I'm not going to waste time trying to change anyone's entrenched opinions, I'll just carrying on enjoying the Mongoose edition. It may not be perfect, but what would the perfect edition of Traveller be? Probably the one that you rewrite to your own needs and tastes (and wasn't that always rule number one?)

The question is not "which version is perfect".

Rather, the question is "which version is best."

At best, MGT is an adequate, if uninspiring, ruleset (IMHO of course). The fact that it is not clearly superior (or even equal in most cases IMHO) to a 32 year old ruleset (CT) or a 22 year old ruleset (MT) speaks volumes about its mediocrity.

And adding shuriken catapults and other such gibberish will not somehow transmogrify it into a quality ruleset.

It's mediocrity as a ruleset is matched by its presentation -- amateurish layout, incredibly sloppy writing and apparently nonexistent editing. Candidly, I've seen numerous amateur gaming products that were far better than the MGT products. And there's little excuse for that IMHO.

 

[aramis]

Ty:
1) Several have; they can't be legally shared. Hunter won't let us discuss here using the OGL to do a work alike, either.

2) The combat system was excellent except for the lack of an initiative system and the use of the poorly explained interrupt system. It works exquisitely as a miniatures game. The lack of need to convert when PC's fired at units was brilliant, and

3) it was less of a pain than FF&S. FF&S is just about the least friendly design system I've used; only GV was worse. CORPS VDS was simpler to use, but only a bit. T20 is simple and usable.

4) I agree that it was a near miss for many. But for those who'd already integrated striker, it was a blessing. Even with the errata. SJG posted in 1995 that he loved the system but wanted to see a less-errata MT2.0 as T5, and that Marc shut him down on that.

Besides, most of the non-CGen crunch of MGT is in the SRD.