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Why pay more for less (from What you like about MGT)

3) it was less of a pain than FF&S. FF&S is just about the least friendly design system I've used; only GV was worse.

Huh. I rather liked FFS1; in fact, I'm using it as a template for a home-brew vehicle/weapon design system for MgT. (Weapons conversion between the two systems is going to be the difficult part, I suspect. Radically different scales and combat systems... if you can call MgT's combat and weapons rules "systemized". I don't.)

Now, FFS2 I'm willing to concede you a point. To be fair, though, that wasn't so much the system itself as it was the foul-up involving fonts, symbols, and the printer. The system itself was almost as useful (for those with the right mindset, that is) as FFS1 - as well it should be; it was nearly a straight port.

Personally, I liked the concept, and the implementation resonated with me. I can see how it wouldn't with everyone, but then, I've always liked mathematics, logic, and science as well, and we can all see how much the general public cares for delving into those. There's a fair case for calling me an odd duck... but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong.

Now, GV I didn't care for. It always felt rather inconsistent to me. That's not something calculated to draw me in, particularly not in a science based game. And while I am a long-time (and pretty much incorrigible) rules mechanic - that is, I enjoy tinkering with the rules, trying to make them work better - the sheer scope of the necessary changes GV would have required made me think that it'd be quicker and simpler to simply scrap the entire thing and do the whole job myself.
 
No, FF&S1 is one order harder on designers (due to having 5 axises of design: Power, Volume, Mass, Price, Surface Area) than MT (with 4: Power, Volume, Mass, Price), and while more realistic, FF&S1 also uses exponential formulas (which means a spreadsheet or a sci-calc are essential).

FF&S2 is no harder a system (tho' the book is screwed due to that font issue) than FF&S1, and the designs are no harder to do than FF&S1, requiring the same tools.

MT (and MGT, CT, and T20) all have design systems doable accurately with pen and paper, and all but Bk2 really benefit from a calculator, but it can be the $1.25 special at walmart, not the $20 sci-calc. (Of course, one can substitute the computer for the sci-calc, but results are never guaranteed with a game with as many grogs as Traveller.)

While I can get a pretty tight MT design in a few iterations, it takes far more iterations and calculations for no more in-play system effective detail.

The biggest problem of HG, as a design system, is that it is narrowly construed to use only premade weapons. The benefit is that it provides a minimum level of needed detail, and not much more; you will use most every stat generated in reasonable play.

The Problem of FF&S1 was the dearth of premade weapons; it was hard enough designing ships, but Having to design the weapons was too much.

I think MGT really blew chunks eliminating the concept of power points; it breaks the system in an odd and unrealistic way, in that a ship with a C plant can't carry a pair of plasma turrets if the ship is 400 tons, but can if it's 200 tons... with the same power plant and attached C Maneuver.

My favorite design system is T20's... but I've done far more in MT.
 
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<Shrug> Your mileage clearly varies from mine - and there's nothing wrong with that. As I said, I rather like math, logic, and science - rather more than most people, at that - and the notion of exponential formulae doesn't particularly bother me; I could perform all the required calculation for FFS (either version) with a basic calculator... or with scratch paper, in a pinch. And the extra detail I get out of the system is personally satisfying to me, even if it never comes up in the game... and yet, details like that have come up in my games, more than once, without the players ever thinking it was "forced" in any way. (Always as plot points, if I bothered to include them. Basic plotting rule: if you show a gun hanging over the fireplace in Act One, you'd better have used it by Act Three.)

Remember: IT'S YOUR GAME. AS LONG AS EVERYONE'S HAVING FUN, YOU'RE NOT DOING IT WRONG. And that means that if one person or group uses one set of rules, and another person or group uses a different set of rules, as long as everyone's having fun then everyone's doing it right. Thank you; this has been a public service announcement.
 
Kilgs,

You were in the right thread at first and I was in the wrong thread at first.

My "wrong" comment and your "right" comment were then shifted to this thread where my "wrong" became a "right" and your "right" became a "wrong".

Don't worry, my head hurts too!

Regards,
Bill

Well, as long as I was "right" at least once ;-)
 
Re experience with Traveller:

I got the original box in 1977 and have played it on and off ever since. I didn't add the new stuff to my game because I had what I needed to get everything I wanted from those first three books. I changed what I wanted to, and added everything I needed. There's plenty of it. I played the game with many different groups over the years. I avoided the new stuff because I didn't like how it changed Traveller WRT how I played it.

Now I'm able to take a different attitude toward the material, partially because of the changes in how I play but largely because I'm willing to take what I want and ignore the rest without feeling like I'm doing it wrong. ;)

Re the argument being about the "best" version of Traveller:
The sooner you get over this the happier you'll be, Ty. There is no "best" version. Of Traveller, of RPG, of art, of story, of song.

Different things appeal to different people at different times for different reasons. That's not what this is about at all. I read this as being about why is it worth it to those of us who like it and buy it. That means the discussion is about whether the MGT books are worth more than their asking price. To me, they are. To someone else, they either are or aren't depending on more factors than can be enumerated in a reasonable post, or thread.

Why I play Traveller without the OTU:
I played it for 30 years without the OTU. The OTU is a setting, once commonly called the "Imperium Campaign" as I recall. Traveller was originally sold without it. The tech assumptions inserted in the original rules are not the universe, they're a constructive response to the constraints encountered in writing and publishing a rule set.

If you look at the literary inspirations for the Traveller rules you'll find those tech assumptions, or something very close to them, in many books from many authors. None of them was writing about the OTU. The tech assumptions are not based on science so much as dramatic logic. You don't have instantaneous communications so that the characters have freedom of action. You have limits on travel speed to enlarge the feeling of space in the story. Large areas with poor communications implies that local governers have lots of control, which implies an imperial or feudal system of government when our own history is consulted for analogues (or when our own history is mined for stories to tell in space, take your pick.)

As it happens, these dramatic choices work well for an RPG. And that's all Traveller was written to be.

Then RPGs grew, and Traveller and many other games learned the same lesson that came with the VCR and the disposable razor: the money to be made is not in the sale of the original equipment, but in the media it consumes. Hence the OTU.

The OTU is almost certainly responsible for Traveller being something other than one of those games that kicked out a rulebook then disappeared before 1982. But it's not Traveller.

Why do I use the Traveller system? Simple. Because it's the only skills-based system that has effectively limited skill bloat, constant increases in the lists of skills, and non-skills-based rules appendages to stay a quick, easy to run, rules-light system without constraints like character classes.

BRP hasn't managed this, Gary Gygax's systems haven't managed this (from Cyborg Commando through Lejendary Adventure), GURPS started out too heavy. CoC (non d20) has managed to some degree, and I can always pull out my old RQII, I suppose. There are others that are close, but for a short list of broad skills that aren't built to, like Topsy, just grow, Traveller takes the cake. Though I wouldn't say this is true of all versions of Traveller--I can say it for the two versions I play. MGT still has the opportunity of going skills list happy, but I don't have to participate. :)

Traveller also suits the games I want to run right now. I like SF, I like running SF games that are like the stories I like to read. Traveller gives me what I need to bring those ideas to the table easily. The OTU material I've acquired is good stuff to mine for ideas, scenarios, etc. The mechanics of Traveller are far more flexible than the OTU would imply at its surface, I feel. SOC doesn't have to mean feudal nobility. It's perfectly possible to design another ship building system and still have it be Traveller.

Here's a challenge for those who care to give it a try. In the OD&D circles, something newer (post-1976) players will sometimes do is try playing the game with nothing more than the first three books and Chainmail, or possible add Greyhawk and the early articles from The Strategic Review and first few issues of the Dragon.

How about some folks give a try to playing Traveller with just the first 3 books? I've run about a year's campaign giving the OTU a spin. It didn't work for us as-is, but the experience was certainly invaluable for me. I now know enough about the OTU to make far more effective use of its materials in any game than I did before. I can read OTU stuff and make sense of it without having to look up every third race or place name.

Give Traveller a spin without the OTU. Leave behind every race, place, and assumption it makes. Read the first 3 books, 1977 edition if possible, with "new eyes" and build a game from some of your favorite SF. See what you can make fit, and see how well you can write rules to mesh with what doesn't.

I've used Traveller to run everything from "Sticks and Stones" style games to H.G. Wells and Verne-style adventures (before it was "steampunk") to cyberpunk to a number of different literary SF venues and mixes of them. I'm no super-gamer, I've just been at it for a while. I think that those who think Traveller is just a setting might gain some new appreciation for the rules and how well they work if they give this a try.

With several bushel boxes full of rules in my closet, over twice as many in the garage, and an income that allows me regular visits to the FLGS, I play Traveller because I want to, not for lack of choices. :D
 
I've tried that, Saundby. It still felt like the ProtoOTU, not the material I based on. The majority of the feel is the rules-driven tropes. I tried running Tron. I tried running an FSP (from McCaffrey). I tried Sten. Sten's pretty damned close to Traveller. It still felt like Traveller, not like Sten. There is too much setting in the rules mechanics.

In fact, having run "trekish" games under MT, 2300, and CT Bk 1-5, only 2300 managed to feel like Trek, and not like Traveller... but it didn't feel quite like Traveller, anyway.

I have found that, in 30 years of gaming, system matters. It matters a lot. And without rewriting the mechanics of ships, Traveller rules don't feel trekish; Trek is very hardware dependent. (In fact, Starships and Spacemen does the feel better, but still not quite on...)
 
I want you to give me Excellence. What you're giving me is Nemesis--something that is liked by a niche but not capturing the world.

Well, here is the issue. Traveller is not capturing _your_ world, but it is spreading at a great rate elsewhere - it is still one of the best selling RPG lines around at the moment. We are hitting the nail on the head for a great many people.

I would love to produce S4's Traveller but we can only do one version at the moment and, to be fair, it seems as though you already have your own game that you greatly enjoy right now.

Maybe, in the future, we will release a supplement that just 'clicks' for you. Maybe, just maybe, that will be as soon as Aslan (we are liking this one a great deal). Maybe it will be a new setting for Traveller, one you think fits in with the rules 'just so'.

Or maybe not - either way, I think Traveller (in all its forms) can survive you and us disagreeing on a few things. The only comment I would make is that the constant questioning of why others like the current Traveller seems a little. . . obsessive. You have your game, why can't other people have theirs, for no other reason than they have different tastes to you?

Seeing as you're Mongoose's shill here

I don't think that word means what you think it means. . .

Despite the various blurbs going back as far as the First Three LBBs, Traveller has never been a set of truly generic sci-fi rules. The technological assumptions alone prevent that.

The technological assumptions have nothing to do with the rules set.

For example, suppose we were to do, say, a Star Trek version of Traveller. You need FTL communications but, in the main, that is a setting change rather than a fundamental rules issue. You need new drive systems in ships - but a few handy tables and some judicious tweaks to the construction system take care of that.

The point I want to make is we have established Traveller as the foundation of many new settings - as you see them roll round, hopefully, you will see the groundwork has been laid.

More damningly, Mongoose has never tried to understand that.

Everything, and I mean _everything_ we have planned and are planning to do with Traveller has been done with discussion with Mr Miller, and with his consent. At every stage, he has given advice and opinions, all of which we have followed.

We get what Traveller is now, as does (obviously!) Mr Miller. It is not the Traveller of 30-odd years ago - and it would have been a mistake to simply repeat CT. It may not even be something you are interested - but that is okay too! The hobby is far more interesting with different opinions. . .

for you to bring back to your superiors at Mongoose

I own Mongoose - you are dialling direct.
 
I own Mongoose - you are dialling direct.
In that case... I really liked MGT, and I can't emphasize that enough. But Scouts was my last MGT purchase. I don't see a commitment to quality coming from Mongoose, so I'm going to spend my hard-earned gamer dollars elsewhere.
Just thought I'd pass that along.
:(
 
The Problem of FF&S1 was the dearth of premade weapons; it was hard enough designing ships, but Having to design the weapons was too much.

It's actually worse than that. You had to design the ammunition, then the gun. It could take hours just to create a single weapon.

IMHO, any game designer who releases something like FFS should include spreadsheet templates for the major design sequences.
 
Huh. I rather liked Personally, I liked the concept, and the implementation resonated with me. I can see how it wouldn't with everyone, but then, I've always liked mathematics, logic, and science as well, and we can all see how much the general public cares for delving into those. There's a fair case for calling me an odd duck... but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong.

I'd caution gearheads that these ultra-mega-sooper-design sequences only produce approximations of real tech. Exact modelling would require accounting for all variables, which may be workable for Boeing or Smith & Wesson...

And even complex design sequences do not always produce reasonble analogues for real world gear. I have not found FF&S to produce better gun ratings than my own simpler "take an existing design and select from a menu of modifications" systems.

So candidly, I'm unconvinced of the utility of such systems.
 
Having to choose between the ultra-primitive (Mgt with it's lack of energy consumption etc), the complex (MegaTraveller) and over-complex (TNE/FFS) I always go for the latter. As with people it's easier for a smart guy to play stupid than the other way round.

One approach to the "build something" problem that works nicely is the "modular system" used by GT and ISW where you basically get tons of pre-generated modules and fill a ships hull with them(1). It works even better when a lot of those modules are useful for player-level ships and/or civilan crafts.


(1) The realisation has some debatabel elements, more so in 1st Ed (GT) than in 2nd Ed (ISW)
 
I'd caution gearheads that these ultra-mega-sooper-design sequences only produce approximations of real tech. Exact modelling would require accounting for all variables, which may be workable for Boeing or Smith & Wesson...

And even complex design sequences do not always produce reasonble analogues for real world gear. I have not found FF&S to produce better gun ratings than my own simpler "take an existing design and select from a menu of modifications" systems.

So candidly, I'm unconvinced of the utility of such systems.

Oh, I'm quite well aware that the results are only approximations. (Comes from being a geek with some wide-ranging real-world interests as well.) And I agree that the ratings are not necessarily "better" than those another system could produce - they do tend, however, to be consistent, and I can tweak from there.

Oh, and as to the utility of the systems... that, naturally, will vary from gamer to gamer. Of what utility, after all, are RPGs themselves? So long as someone is entertained, they've served their purpose...
 
[...] suppose we were to do, say, a Star Trek version of Traveller. You need FTL communications but, in the main, that is a setting change rather than a fundamental rules issue. You need new drive systems in ships - but a few handy tables and some judicious tweaks to the construction system take care of that.

Maybe some folks can't separate the setting from the rules in their minds: they see them intertwined. But I immediately grokked what Mongoose was doing: swap out a few tables, and you've got Babylon 5. What's not to like? It's a win-win situation.
 
[...]
And even complex design sequences do not always produce reasonble analogues for real world gear. I have not found FF&S to produce better gun ratings than my own simpler "take an existing design and select from a menu of modifications" systems.

So candidly, I'm unconvinced of the utility of such systems.

Oh, I'm quite well aware that the results are only approximations. (Comes from being a geek with some wide-ranging real-world interests as well.) And I agree that the ratings are not necessarily "better" than those another system could produce - they do tend, however, to be consistent, and I can tweak from there.
[...]


Re the argument being about the "best" version of Traveller:
The sooner you get over this the happier you'll be, Ty. There is no "best" version. Of Traveller, of RPG, of art, of story, of song.

[...]


I judge usefulness by (1) Ease of use, (2) Playability, (3) Consistency, and (4) Limitations.

Fire, Fusion, and Steel is probably highly consistent and limitless, but for me, it's too hard to use: do I need to do that much calculation to estimate how many grams my custom pistol masses in order to maintain consistency? And since mass granularity is in grams, how do those extra four grams effect playability? Not one whit. Thus, for me, the system goes too far. Two out of four stars.

For opposite reasons I don't build weapons using Classic Traveller. The "best guess" system is relatively easy (just requires some research), but playability is suspect when you get into high tech and starships. And, consistency is suspect once we start extrapolating rules from high-tech examples... and if unchecked, we end up with Striker, which once again is consistent, but is a proto-FFS, both being authored by the same gentlemen if I am not mistaken. Two stars when adapting equipment that fits within their examples with known tech, one star otherwise.

MegaTraveller incorporated all vehicles into a single craft design system, so it's highly consistent. Its range of TLs and hulls means it has no limitations for Traveller. Unfortunately its consistency also breaks usability for me, because now every element has to be expressed at its lowest common denominator: in essence, I get the Fire, Fusion, and Steel experience minus the formulae. It also required a final design analysis phase to determine the playable elements of my design: in other words, the tables aren't designed for playability -- another FFS experience. Two stars.

The opposite problems plague High Guard and Book 2 -- rules are easy, results are consistent, and design decisions impact playability, but it's limited to the choices at hand, and playability breaks down in the Traveller rules themselves, due to important things existing in the Traveller Universe which the rules mostly overlook or underserve (sensors and comms, for instance). Two stars.
 
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Re the argument being about the "best" version of Traveller:
The sooner you get over this the happier you'll be, Ty. There is no "best" version. Of Traveller, of RPG, of art, of story, of song.

[...]

Give Traveller a spin without the OTU. Leave behind every race, place, and assumption it makes.

[...]

Maybe we should revive one of the COTI threads about alternate TUs.
 
Maybe some folks can't separate the setting from the rules in their minds: they see them intertwined. But I immediately grokked what Mongoose was doing: swap out a few tables, and you've got Babylon 5. What's not to like? It's a win-win situation.

Actually it is not. Take a short look at HighGuard to see an example. To get a "universal" system you can either go complex (Gurps Vehicles 2e, FFS etc) or very generic (Mgt Hg).

By going very generic you kill a lot of "Munchkin stoppers" and cause the need for house-ruling and discussions. A quick look at some questions on Mgt related boards get you "What is the fuel consumption/fuel duration of a reactor when coasting" (Easily answered in MegaTraveller or TNE, houserule/discussion in Mgt), "Can I mount four of the biggest energy weapons on my Typ-R" (Mgt allows that despite the thing failing a "reality check" IMHO) and so on.

Needed if you want a simple(ton) system that can model an EarthForce Omega just as well as a Typ-T. A source of problems if you look for a rules system to play in the Traveller universe. Even SJ Games did build a simplified version of Vehicles for GURPS and listed what technologies/gear where NOT availabel in the GURPS:TRAVELLER setting.

Same for other supplements. The current Mgt way to mix OTU equipment with non-OTU stuff (i.e. FragCanon, Shuriken Launcher) generates endless sources for discussions and in-group problems if one plays TRAVELLER instead of "Generic SciFi RPG (ab)using the Traveller Brand". If they had put a death-head label behind it or printed the new stuff Tolkien-Green that would have helped a lot.

Combine that with a game system that's average at best and does not offer any benefit compared to cheaper TRAVELLER rules systems (Mega, TNE) and suffers from 1st Edition syndrom as well as some (IMHO massiv) balancing problems in combat, weapons etc. and a TRAVELLER GM gains no benefits from choosing Mgt while loosing many by NOT choosing say TNE/FFS or GURPS. Even if I AM INTERESTED in playing say Babylon5 (I am not(1)) with the rules I still loose due to the over-simplified system.


(1) I like the universe but in my experience movie/tv universes don't work, even more true for "close to the major NPCs" stuff like B5/StarGate/BGC than for say StarTrek/StarWars
 
Combine that with a game system that's average at best and does not offer any benefit compared to cheaper TRAVELLER rules systems (Mega, TNE) and suffers from 1st Edition syndrom as well as some (IMHO massiv) balancing problems in combat, weapons etc. and a TRAVELLER GM gains no benefits from choosing Mgt while loosing many by NOT choosing say TNE/FFS or GURPS. Even if I AM INTERESTED in playing say Babylon5 (I am not(1)) with the rules I still loose due to the over-simplified system./QUOTE]

It annoys me when people make these kind of pronouncements as though they were fact rather than that poster's opinion.

You do not speak for me. I have and use Mongoose Traveller and I feel I gain more than I lose from not using the other versions. So much for generalizations.

Allen
 
Combine that with a game system that's average at best and does not offer any benefit compared to cheaper TRAVELLER rules systems (Mega, TNE) and suffers from 1st Edition syndrom as well as some (IMHO massiv) balancing problems in combat, weapons etc. and a TRAVELLER GM gains no benefits from choosing Mgt while loosing many by NOT choosing say TNE/FFS or GURPS. Even if I AM INTERESTED in playing say Babylon5 (I am not(1)) with the rules I still loose due to the over-simplified system./QUOTE]

It annoys me when people make these kind of pronouncements as though they were fact rather than that poster's opinion.

You do not speak for me. I have and use Mongoose Traveller and I feel I gain more than I lose from not using the other versions. So much for generalizations.

Allen

It was always my assumption that "I" refers to the poster, not the general public. And even if not:

+ I never claimed to speak for you
+ This whole tread is about OPTIONS
+ Since we are NOT talking about mathematics/engineering my option IS a fact as far as I am concerned
 
To be entirely honest, I'm not sure anyone knows what this thread is about... I thought people were arguing over MT v. MGT. Which, I have to admit, is a novel argument since it's usually "OMG Just use CT+rules from unofficial Books 11-34 plus these house rules and its a waste!" So... it's refreshing to hear an argument about MT.

However, there also appears to be the following discussions:

-Discussion of weapon design systems
-Whether the OTU is tied into the Traveller mechanics (unsure which system)
-Whether generic systems address munchkin issues
-Whether or not to stuff munchkins into jet engines during play and how to explain the mess to your wife when she returns home.

So, it's fair to say that someone may be confused about what's going on here... :)
 
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