Working T5 Resources into MTU (but not RU’s there are no RU’s here.)

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

People can ask what something means, or google more common references. Everyone here seems willing to share information. and people don't seem afraid to ask questions. I was yesterday years old when I learned that this is called The Old Redline Map @GypsyComet.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

An important idea is the “resource trap”. If trade is available, infrastructure+population (ie economic development) is going to be much more important than raw resources, which can be imported.

I think your point was that if you can't move the resources due to lack of infrastructure to get it into the economy, the value is trapped, or not contributing to GWP. Does this address your point? INFRASTRUCTURE-1 reduces economic output to ~88%, ~114% and ~67% in the examples below. But it doesn't address the smaller population, because that's already a multiplier in the equation.

An infrastructure value of 9 is not the same on a Population 9 world as on a Population 7 world. An infrastructure of 9 provides more efficiency to the Population 7 world, than to the Population 9 world. For simplicity, an easy formula for Economic Efficiency Modifier ECOEFMO = Infrastructure / Population. A world with INF 9 / POP 9 has an ECOEFMO of 100%, whereas INF 9 / POP 7 produces and ECOEFMO of ~ 128% and INF 7 / POP 9 has an ECOEFMO of ~ 78%. I’m mulling if there should be a +/- 1 in that equation.

 

[whartung]

How do the T5 resource rule differ from T4 Pocket Empires?

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

How do the T5 resource rule differ from T4 Pocket Empires?

T5 is very simple, IIRC T4 is more complex. Give me a couple of days and I'll compare them. For my purposes T5 resources are published on the travellermap, and I've parsed the data, so I can plug that number into my GWP formula. I'm aiming for a KISS formula (Keep It Simple Spacehand).

 

[GypsyComet]

The Old Redline Map

It isn't evident from the Traveller Map rendition, but the original poster predates most of the sectors having names. It includes Old Expanses but not Reaver's Deep, for example, and only one of the Gateway sectors. That puts it early in the FASA and JG licenses.

 

[Drew]

Can anyone provide me the answer to the following found in Chapter 8 of the Pocket Empires?

It lists the following abbreviations: ATT, DEF, TRN and JMP. How are they calculated, where are the tables to convert a High Guard Ship or a Ground Force. It is not in the back of the book for a means to convert them.

 

[whartung]

There really isn't a chart for that. At best you can convert RUs in to Cr and use that to buy ships and troops.

You have to appreciate that those numbers are very high level, that every turn in Pocket Empires is an entire year. It would be very difficult to convert those numbers in to actual ships and troops.

Also, the way they use them, they're basically universal. 1 ATT of starships is comparable to 1 ATT of ground troops, that's how that system is setup. Whats different is what zones they can operate in.

The only real distinction is converting RUs in to ATT and DEF, where at lower TL, they're much more expensive to manifest TL advantages.

But if you somehow managed to show up with 1 ATT of TL 15 Imperial Marines against 10 ATT of primitive men with sticks and stones, expect to get your fanny handed to you.

 

[Drew]

Really didn't answer my question. Thank you for responding.

Drew

 

[whartung]

Well, there's really no answer to your question.

ATT (attack), DEF (defense), TRN (tansport), and JMP (jump) are simply assigned. The player builds units 1 point at a time. For fleets, 1 point of JMP is required for each point of the rest. So, if you have a fleet with 1 ATT and 1 DEF, it requires 2 JMP. TRN is for transport. If you want to carry a 1 ATT 1 DEF ground force, that would need 2 TRN. It's all pretty basic. There's chart at the back that shows how many RUs each factor costs, based on TL.

And...that's it. Since Pocket Empires is from T4, there wouldn't be an HG conversion chart anyway. Closest you can get is by converting RUs you would spend on these factors to Credits and buying units directly. But even that doesn't work because they break up ATT(ack) and DEF(ense) separately, which you can't do with a starship (or much anything else really).

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Well, there's really no answer to your question.

ATT (attack), DEF (defense), TRN (tansport), and JMP (jump) are simply assigned. The player builds units 1 point at a time. For fleets, 1 point of JMP is required for each point of the rest. So, if you have a fleet with 1 ATT and 1 DEF, it requires 2 JMP. TRN is for transport. If you want to carry a 1 ATT 1 DEF ground force, that would need 2 TRN. It's all pretty basic. There's chart at the back that shows how many RUs each factor costs, based on TL.

And...that's it. Since Pocket Empires is from T4, there wouldn't be an HG conversion chart anyway. Closest you can get is by converting RUs you would spend on these factors to Credits and buying units directly. But even that doesn't work because they break up ATT(ack) and DEF(ense) separately, which you can't do with a starship (or much anything else really).

Are these combat values based on the old Imperium and Invasion Earth games (with which I am NOT familiar) or was this a new system built for Pocket Empires, like Striker and TCS were standalone games that fit into the Traveller RPG universe?

GDW was a wargames shop that also succeeded with Roleplaying System. Come to think of it, wasn't TSR a minis wargaming shop that also succeeded with Roleplaying System?

And I enjoyed the wargames too. I just wanted to observe that there are two different lineages.

 

[whartung]

It's a new system. It's not based on any of the others.

The combat system is thus:

You have 3 zones: Space, Orbit, World

Damage = (ATT + 1D + Tactical DM) - (DEF + 1D + Tactical DM) (Tactical DM is optional). With a minimum of 1.

Damage is to be applied equally among the 4 factors.

That's it. It's about this ][ much more sophisticated than Risk.

Roll dice to attrit units through each zone until the attacker is exhausted or the forces have landed.

 

[Drew]

Are these combat values based on the old Imperium and Invasion Earth games (with which I am NOT familiar) or was this a new system built for Pocket Empires, like Striker and TCS were standalone games that fit into the Traveller RPG universe?

GDW was a wargames shop that also succeeded with Roleplaying System. Come to think of it, wasn't TSR a minis wargaming shop that also succeeded with Roleplaying System?

And I enjoyed the wargames too. I just wanted to observe that there are two different lineages.

Thank you Whartung and Hairy Jim for your explanations. I am thinking that this was an attempt for a new system but it was a lead zeppelin and didn't really fly. Just like the RUs versus GNP for Stryker - I would take the GNP value and apply either a 3% (normal), 6% for heightened, 10% for border conflicts and 40% for all out war (America's percentage during WWII).

 

[GypsyComet]

I am thinking that this was an attempt for a new system but it was a lead zeppelin and didn't really fly.

That's a lot of T4's subsystems, really. The speed with which T4 was developed and published left some items behind.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Thank you Whartung and Hairy Jim for your explanations. I am thinking that this was an attempt for a new system but it was a lead zeppelin and didn't really fly. Just like the RUs versus GNP for Stryker - I would take the GNP value and apply either a 3% (normal), 6% for heightened, 10% for border conflicts and 40% for all out war (America's percentage during WWII).

It's been said dozens of times before, you can set the military budget anywhere you want, but... the higher it gets the less sustainable it is.

IIRC Syria, when at prolonged hostilities, but not actually waging war with Israel in the 80's was running at ~15-18%, which severely clipped their economy.

I am led to believe that WWII was a popular war for all of the belligerent populations, in that people were willing to sacrifice, because they all believed in their cause... up to a point.

Public morale in Italy collapsed before Germany and before Japan. I'm not well read here, so I don't know how much support the English had left.

Even while safely ensconced between two oceans, how much longer would Americans been able to keep up the rationing war economy?

 

[Grav_Moped]

Even while safely ensconced between two oceans, how much longer would Americans been able to keep up the rationing war economy?

The LIMFAC would have been the service life of pre-war durable goods whose production was suspended in favor of war materiel. Food and such were sustainable without imports.

 

[Iracundus]

Well, there's really no answer to your question.

ATT (attack), DEF (defense), TRN (tansport), and JMP (jump) are simply assigned. The player builds units 1 point at a time. For fleets, 1 point of JMP is required for each point of the rest. So, if you have a fleet with 1 ATT and 1 DEF, it requires 2 JMP. TRN is for transport. If you want to carry a 1 ATT 1 DEF ground force, that would need 2 TRN. It's all pretty basic. There's chart at the back that shows how many RUs each factor costs, based on TL.

And...that's it. Since Pocket Empires is from T4, there wouldn't be an HG conversion chart anyway. Closest you can get is by converting RUs you would spend on these factors to Credits and buying units directly. But even that doesn't work because they break up ATT(ack) and DEF(ense) separately, which you can't do with a starship (or much anything else really).

On the Mongoose forums, I did an economic analysis of the Glorious Empire using T4 calculated numbers, based on Resources and Infrastructure as per the Traveller map. I crunched everything, generating a GWP for each world, including the value of the RU for each world in local credits, since that is dependent on Tech Level. T4 Pocket Empires has to be done with a spreadsheet.

As an example, the main industrial world of Htourlao had 1 RU = 3.8k MCr. The maintenance cost for a T4 Pocket Empire unit is per year, 3 RU per Size (each point of ATK, DEF, TRN, or JMP is 1 Size). This cost in RU jumps by 2 RU per Size per hex if the maintenance is paid for by another world. The cost in RU is not just the actual hardware mainenance but also encompasses all related costs such as salaries for the crew and maintenance personnel, costs for shipping parts, maintenance of the maintenance facilities themselves etc...

As a comparison, the Mongoose Glorious Empire supplement gave the pure hardware maintenance costs of one of the battleships as 8.12 MCr/month. The procurement cost of the battleship was 97555 MCr.

Simply put, if one reads through the thread, my conclusion was the Glorious Empire is an economic wreck, if going by T4.

 

[Spinward Flow]

my conclusion was the Glorious Empire is an economic wreck

Well, that's the way the empire crumbles ...

 

[Iracundus]

Well, yes, it was an economic wreck even with like 70% tax rates on Htourlao. At best, it would barely balance the books, but would be unable to afford offensive operations as that makes costs spike under T4 Pocket Empires. The most viable economic options such as tech uplift of less developed worlds could have been done but would have taken many decades to make a return on investment as the GWP of these worlds was so low that even otherwise decent % growth would still be tiny amounts on an absolute scale. I did several hypotheticals in that thread trying to see if it was possible to game a revival of the Glorious Empire. The answer is pretty much no. It would have to be left untouched on its own for decades in order for it to painfully build up its worlds. That is not the political situation it finds itself in.

About the only thing would be godly rolling on a Subversion Offensive for Hliyh, to retake that critical world that basically sealed the Empire's fate, representing perhaps a rebellion by Glorious Empire loyalists or subversives. Even then it would be a question of whether Hliyh could be held long enough for its economic output to help the other worlds.

The main critique though was that as antagonists, the Glorious Empire fails because they are so pitifully weak. They are a polity that exists only really because nobody else can be bothered to take them out yet. In the background though, they are written as if they are stronger than they can be under T4 Pocket Empire rules.

Converting T4 Pocket Empire military units is difficult because of the way the rules made it: Instead of representing fixed sizes, and the combat effectiveness varying by tech level, instead it had fixed combat effectiveness with the size varying by tech level. So a TL6 unit with ATK 4 DEF 4 is as effective as a TL15 unit with ATK 4 DEF 4, only the former may represent tens of thousands of troops while the latter may be a single company.

 

[kilemall]

To the car example, we kind of have the component style with the letter drive ship design, common major parts with the potential of local customization, and Tesla style HG ships, with a different mix of positives and negatives, and most everything custom and possibly tied to higher TL support.

I’ve previously shown that ship drives and computers travel well over subsector/sector distances as their X MCr per ton value means plenty of profit baked in to an IND world source per speculative cargo.

That means speculators buying at the IND world for a distributor network. Or a megacorps owning the IND drive plant and ships transporting and local shipyards use their own parts and high profit is baked into the ship price on the drives alone.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I’ve previously shown that ship drives and computers travel well over subsector/sector distances as their X MCr per ton value means plenty of profit baked in to an IND world source per speculative cargo.

Link please?