World Creation

[dlazaro]

Hi, I'm new here. I've been reading lots of topics during the last days and I have some questions for the veterans.

The first one is about world creation. Some people seem not too fond of the classic world generation in Traveller and speak of more modern approaches based in current discoveries.

My question is: what are those discoveries and what is scientifically, completely wrong about the old system?

I'm curious.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

David,

I can not answer the science aspect of your question. However, I (like every other Traveller player) have my own opinions on the subject. So what follows are the procedures I use IMTU. As always, YTU may vary:

1) Canonical Traveller requires that the results of the HYD roll be modified only by the results of the SIZ roll. IMHO, it should instead be modified by the ATM roll in some way, perhaps HYD = 2D-7 + ATM.

2) The POP roll has no modifications. IMHO, it should be modified in some way by SIZ, ATM, and HYD to show that deviations from an Earth-normal environment would be less hospitable to humans. I suggest...

SIZ minus 8 = x
ATM minus 6 = y
HYD minus 7 = z

Drop all minus signs, and POP DM = [(x + y + z) / 3] + 1. Round off all fractions to the nearest integer. This provides an increase in the POP roll for any "867" world, and increasingly negative POP DMs for worlds that deviate more from Earth's "867" rating.

3) Construction of starports and bases should be based on local system technology, as it is expensive and time-consuming to transport the materials through jumpspace, and not immediately cost-effective to do so to some marginal backwater world with little or no resources of its own. This requires that TEC = 1D + 1 to accomodate the loss of DMs for starports and bases (retain all other DMs). Then (IMTU) any TEC rating of 7 or less means that there is no starport or base in the system, no matter how many gas giants there may be.

4) If POP = 0, then LAW = 0, GOV = 0, and TEC = 0, and the world rating is "Barren." Of course, this does not preclude the existance of a TEC-8+ world having wiped out its entire POP through the use of WMDs, and leaving all that TEC-8+ equipment just laying there for the taking...

5) While there is no "Prime Directive" as such, IMTU all worlds of TEC-7 or less are classified as "Yellow Zone" worlds, with the suggestion (albeit a strongly-worded one) against visitors doing too much to upset the development of the local culture

Results:

IMTU, there are fewer Naval and scout bases, and many more barren worlds and worlds of less than TEC-8. This requires that the characters become more reliant on their own skills for their survival. Also, the characters tend to be a little more cautious about, say, introducing laser rifles to a flintlock culture -- although I can not say that it does not happen...

As a side note, I also include Stargates IMTU. The Stargates are almost identical to the ones seen in the movie and television series' of the same name, and are therefore usually located in remote areas on worlds that are off the main shipping lanes, or in heavily guarded military / scientific research centers. There are also no more than one Stargate per subsector.

I know the foregoing does not address your question, but then, I play Traveller for the fun of it, and not to produce some Grand Unification Theory of planetary development.

Your results may vary.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Mostly, it has to do with habitable worlds orbiting extreme stars. The LBB2/6 generation rules were only thought out far enough to be usable in a game. Several scientific bits have come to light (or were known, but weren't taken into account originally) since 1977:
Distribution of "nice" stars
What qualifies as a "nice" star
Gas Giants in inner orbits (fairly recent)
Tidally locked worlds/satellites
Math concerning keeping gases/liquids on worlds

Do a search in The Lone Star and Imperial Interstellar Scout Service forums for a Public Display Name of "Malenfant". You'll have to go back a ways (won't be abything recent). You can also search for "Mal" as one of the search words, though you might get some more recent posts directed at a "Maladominus". Malenfant has a stellar generation system that is much improved (though more math intensive) over LBB2/6.

And, WELCOME!

 

[dlazaro]

This is very interesting, I'll be searching the forums. But it seems that the main issues are that the generation method is too random to get logical stats and that some of the restrictions seem to be contradicted by recent discoveries.

My main background is in computer engineering but I think that I will be having loads of fun researching these topics. Thanks for your answers and your welcome.

 

[Gruffty]

Originally posted by thrash:
These issues are actually not new, having been around at least since 1981. There have also been a number of improvements in our understanding of stellar and planetary formation, but they aren't anything that would affect play very much. Malenfant, alias Evil Dr. Ganymede, alias Dr. Constantine Thomas, PhD in planetology, has covered most of them in his excellent updated stellar rules.

Hey, Chris, what was the name of that book you helped playtest? Errrmm, Grups: LastOut, FirstUp or something like that.....

 

[Gruffty]

And welcome, David, to the weird, wonderful and sometimes frakked world of CotI!

There's a lot of stuff here, lots of good ideas, house rules, ships, etc. I would, in fact, go so far as to chance my arm and say CotI is "an excellent resource for Traveller Referees and Players everywhere..."

 

[JAFARR]

David,
First of all, Welcome. It's not limited to world creation. Every aspect of the game has critics or someone who wants to twek some part of the rules. That is why we have CT expanded in the form of LBB 4 - 8, MT, TNE, T4, and the long awaited T5. The first Traveller (as given in LBB 1 - 3) has grown largely through player input. In fact all this growth resulted in a major overhaul touted as Mega Traveller (MT). What MT lost was a lot of the simplicity of the first 3 LBBs. Personally, I use MT character generation and story line, but use mostly the LBBs for the rest. But I digress, I am sure you have read the current discussions on 3D. It is my understanding that the hex layout for a star map was to allow for playability over reality as were some other rules.

My pet peeve is over computers, so I play around with the computer rules. When I come up with what I think is a better system, I will post it for others to tear apart, which will result in more reworking computers, etc.

If you have alternate views of how something should work, play with it, re-work it some more, play with it some more, etc. When you think you have a good working model, post it, read the feedback and go from there.

The purpose of the game has always been to enjoy your self. If you enjoy overhauling the system, here is your chance. I feel that some people in these forums only current involvement with the game is in these forums. Thats great! Maybe there are people who don't participate in the discussions at all, but read them to get ideas. Thats great also! The game has so many aspects that you can participate in the way or ways you enjoy and don't worry about the rest.

Go do whatever is fun for you. Btw, if you have fun arguing about something you can always find someone else here to argue with, and just about anything you want to argue about can be fitted into some aspect of this game (except magic go find a D & D board for that.)

 

[dlazaro]

Originally posted by Gruffty:
There's a lot of stuff here, lots of good ideas, house rules, ships, etc. I would, in fact, go so far as to chance my arm and say CotI is "an excellent resource for Traveller Referees and Players everywhere..."

Thanks for your welcome, I have been reading old threads non-stop for some time by now. It is indeed a great resource for referees and players.

There are threads about some very interesting topics. It is a great learning resource. It feels like there are some great minds hanging around. Pity that some of the greatest, like Mr. Fugate are out of the game right now.

 

[dlazaro]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
First of all, Welcome. It's not limited to world creation. Every aspect of the game has critics or someone who wants to twek some part of the rules. That is why we have CT expanded in the form of LBB 4 - 8, MT, TNE, T4, and the long awaited T5. The first Traveller (as given in LBB 1 - 3) has grown largely through player input. In fact all this growth resulted in a major overhaul touted as Mega Traveller (MT). What MT lost was a lot of the simplicity of the first 3 LBBs. Personally, I use MT character generation and story line, but use mostly the LBBs for the rest. But I digress, I am sure you have read the current discussions on 3D. It is my understanding that the hex layout for a star map was to allow for playability over reality as were some other rules.

Maybe it could be the time to get into my preferences: MegaTraveller has always been my preferred encarnation of the system. I love its 2D mechanics and how probability is spread because of it. I don't have the criticism that other have towards its system. For me, it's the best compromise that I have found so far.

I am going to buy Traveller 5 the day it's available, though.

My pet peeve is over computers, so I play around with the computer rules. When I come up with what I think is a better system, I will post it for others to tear apart, which will result in more reworking computers, etc.

Heh, its funny. Software development is my full time job right now and I don't have any problems with the way that they are handled in Traveller. Love the explanations that appeared in the old Starship Operator's Manual, though that seems not canon right now.

Most surely is that I have not paid attention to it.



If you have alternate views of how something should work, play with it, re-work it some more, play with it some more, etc. When you think you have a good working model, post it, read the feedback and go from there.

I'm not currently playing Traveller. I'm still thinking how to get the rest of the group into it. We are currently playing a D&D campaign. But Traveller was the first game I gamemastered in my life a long time ago in the eighties. So I have something going with it.

I'm still thinking in how to get a campaign started. My idea would be a long campaign that begins in the first half of 1115 just before the rebellion, maybe in the Massilia sector so that they can feel the standard Third Imperium state of affairs for some time, and then make the tension rise through the secon half of 1116 until Lucan forces begin to meddle in the sector through 1120. (Maybe I'm wrong with the dates but you get the idea).

I would also like to develop art for my setting using some of the old techniques that I learned in what seems like a previous life now. Would love to have the capability to generate some great art that everybody can use for free in their campaigns, and who knows maybe one day get published. But one thing is clear, I'm not in it for the money; I just feel like getting the dust of my airbrushes, paintbrushes, stirographs, et al, and get a different use of my Macs.

I also would love developing some free apps for Traveller (most likely Mac OS X only, just because I love Cocoa developement). But don't know how many of the people around here are using Macs, so maybe it ends only serving me. And thinking about clearing copyright issues make my head hurt, so maybe I end up programming nothing.

Heh, I should have titled this thread something like “Hello”. I think I just hijacked my own thread. Go figure!

 

[Gruffty]

Hey, don't sweat it - thread-jacking happens all the time 'round these here parts

 

[aramis]

David:

You write the apps and I'll gleefully test them on 10.3 and 10.4!

 

[robject]

Welcome David!

Originally posted by David Lazaro:
Maybe it could be the time to get into my preferences: MegaTraveller has always been my preferred encarnation of the system. I love its 2D mechanics and how probability is spread because of it. I don't have the criticism that other have towards its system. For me, it's the best compromise that I have found so far.

You're in good company.

I am going to buy Traveller 5 the day it's available, though.

Great!

As you re-acquaint yourself with Traveller, you may remember things you wished Traveller had done differently. If you want to make COTI aware of them, feel free to post them up on COTI, and especially in the public Traveller 5 forum, as well as the Traveller 5 forum on the Moot; they may influence and improve the final product.

 

[Plankowner]

Originally posted by robject:

As you re-acquaint yourself with Traveller, you may remember things you wished Traveller had done differently. If you want to make COTI aware of them, feel free to post them up on COTI, and especially in the public Traveller 5 forum, as well as the Traveller 5 forum on the Moot; they may influence and improve the final product. [/QB]

Unfortunately Robject, without Hunter or someone else being in charge, those of us that came to this website after Katrina have no way to get into the Moot.

I wait...

 

[DaveChase]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
Unfortunately Robject, without Hunter or someone else being in charge, those of us that came to this website after Katrina have no way to get into the Moot.

I wait...

Is there anyone who can help out Hunter during this time.

Dave Chase

 

[Plankowner]

Apparently not.

Over on the COTI Website Issues Section, there are several VERY long threads about the lack of contact with Hunter. He is the only one with the keys apparently, and no one can talk to him. So, we wait.

 

[robject]

Good point, and that's too bad. This means that Traveller5 material which may have gone to the Moot will start showing up on Traveller5.com instead.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Plankowner, David Lazaro evidently managed to get a peerage. And he joined up a month after you.

DL, you ought to go check out the T5 "playtest" forums and see what you think. (I know the Traveller5 site could use some more input, as well.)

 

[Sifu Blackirish]

Greetings, David!

Like you, I am occasionally, no, frequently awed at the talent displayed here. Any TRAVELLER subject you care to name has been torn to subatomic particles and rebuilt.

I found another world generation system that might interest you. If is from Jeff Zeitlin, and his e-mail on the post is

<jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>

I have no idea if the link is still active.

Anyway, without stepping on copyrighted toes, he discusses an alternative generation system that mentions rolling the stats in a different order and some DM tweaking.

This results in (his words here...)

"There are more uninhabited or very low pop systems, also there are very few low-tech systems. Less hospitable worlds have lower pop and seedier starports."

There is lots more...

If I recall correctly, JZ is associated with Freelance TRAVELLER, so give that site a try.