Wounding alien animals

[ShapeShifter]

x/y

In the rules the animal is dropped and unconscious when x damage points have been dealt, and killed when x+y have been dealt. But what if the creature is unconscious? Will it recover in t amount of time or will it slowly bleed out until it's dead? Is there an official ruling as to how this is to be handled? I'm surprised that the system for PC's (1 phys stat=unconscious; 2 stats=seriously wounded; 3 stats=dead) wasn't carried over for animals.

Unless there is a canon resolution system, I thought I'd just roll 1D: 1-3, the creature will regain consciousness in 10 to 30 minutes (40-120 combat rounds), or 4-6, the creature starts dying 1 point remaining for each round (1,2), minute (3,4), or hour (5,6).

 

[far-trader]

No canon answer comes to mind, the best way is usually the simplest. Some thoughts come to mind...

Comparing it to character wounding and unconsciousness I think I'd say that animals don't recover consciousness once the first hit total is gone, unless someone renders aid, per serious wounds for characters.

My reasoning is basically I'd treat animals as missing the first "characteristic" hit value. So the second "characteristic" hit value is the first of the hits listed (your "x" value). Reducing this to zero is a serious wound. The third "characteristic" hit value is the second of the hits listed (your "y" value). Reducing that to zero is death.

In fact I'd be tempted to institute a bleeding out rule for animals (and maybe characters). Any attacks that exceed half the first "characteristic" hit (your "x" value - using the second characteristic for characters) will render the animal unconscious in 40 combat rounds (reversing the character consciousness recovery rule) and (may?) eventually result in death from blood loss and trauma.

 

[Supplement Four]

No canon answer comes to mind...

I disagree. I think the animals default to the same unconscious rule that the humans do.

So, an animal will become conscious again at around the same time a human would.

 

[far-trader]

Thing is S4 animals are very different from humans in the rules. The rules are biased to humans to give them a chance. Unconscious seems to be not bleeding internally or otherwise significantly, nor shocky enough to worry about expiring. You will regain consciousness in a short time. That's fine for humans, especially player characters. Not sure it makes sense for animals. And the rules being mum on the subject lead me to believe the intent was never there for them to regain consciousness.

Animals are different in real life too. Most combat dealt damage is not going to knock them out. It may put them down, but still conscious, and bleeding out. Or they may keep going while they bleed out. Or it may kill them outright. Unless someone is hunting with less-than-lethal means I'd stand by the no regaining consciousness for an animal dealt lethal damage that drops the first hit value to zero, unless someone intervenes.

But I'd be interested in alternate reasoning for your choice in handling it.

 

[BlackBat242]

Ummm... ask any vet (small or large animal) practice, and they will tell you that animals get knocked fully unconscious from wounds all the time (usually blunt-force/concussion, admittedly) and recover without aid.

 

[far-trader]

Ummm... ask any vet (small or large animal) practice, and they will tell you that animals get knocked fully unconscious from wounds all the time (usually blunt-force/concussion, admittedly) and recover without aid.

Kicks and such abuse? Which (blunt-force/concussion) I'd put in the less-than-lethal category. Cars? Much less likely to survive. And I'm not sure I'd hear a vet say "all the time" in such cases. Unless they were victims of subjective recall. But...

...is there is a vet in the house? Professional experience can be helpful.

And that's quite unlike most weapons characters are going to be using against animals. Guns, Swords, Lasers.

Which seems to be the way the game rule is set up. Characters doing lethal damage to animals. Not trying to subdue. Or capture. Kill. And without damaging the trophy. So no recovery of consciousness spontaneously after falling unconscious. Despite the few (possibly largely urban legend at least in the number of times it has happened) cases of Deer (etc.) suddenly coming back to life after being shot, run over, or otherwise apparently killed. I'm almost certain it has happened once. And all but certain it has happened as many times as I've heard it.

Ultimately of course, it is whatever we want the game to do for us Even if there is only one "correct" way by the rules.

 

[aramis]

Moose routinely get up and walk away from car impacts. They usually drop dead from internal bleeding some 100-500m away. (Then again, the moose usually hit the car, not the other way around.)

 

[Supplement Four]

Thing is S4 animals are very different from humans in the rules. The rules are biased to humans to give them a chance.

(snip)

But I'd be interested in alternate reasoning for your choice in handling it.

Well, it's simple, really. You're looking at it from a realism point of view. I'm looking at it from a game design point of view.

So many things in Classic Traveller are "simple". I think this is no different. The rules already handled being knocked "unconscious" in Book 1. Later, when the animals are addressed in the rules, they're dealt with in very similar terms--almost abstract human stats. The specific creatures we create are stated in very generic terms: Flying Gatherer; Chaser; Killer.

The combat stats are no different. I don't think the game designers were trying to invent rules that fit animals specifically. I think that they were trying to take what the player already knew (the human combat rules) and adapt those to animals in a very abstract, simple, playable way.

You've got a number for the animal to go unconscious and a number that shows the animal dead. That's it. (Well, that's almost "it"...if an animal takes damage that is twice the death hit points, the animal is destroyed with no food or pelt value). It's not too different from the human rules.

Also, like everything in Classic Traveller, I think the simple, playable rule is subject to GM interpretation and tweaks...

...So, the quick-n-easy GM uses the human rule for unconscious: The animal is out for 10 minutes, and upon regaining consciousness, the animal gains back half its "unconscious" value.

...The GM that wants some more detail can decide to "tweak" this a bit, allowing the rule to run exactly as the default rule above, but instead of using a strict 10 minutes, he uses 3D6 minutes (average of 10 min) for the amount of time the animal is unconscious.

...Then, there's a GM like you, who doesn't buy that animals and humans should be knocked unconscious for the exact same amount of time, so he tweaks it to his tastes.

All I'm saying is, the default rule for animals being unconscious is the same as that for humans. Otherwise, I'm sure it would have been addressed in the rules. I think the designers thought there was no need since unconsciouness was detailed already.

 

[far-trader]

Well, it's simple, really. You're looking at it from a realism point of view. I'm looking at it from a game design point of view.

Not really. I am looking at it from the game design view, RAW, and simplicity. Just applying that to reality for examples which may have distracted you and misled.

As you say it is simple. The rules for animals don't have regain consciousness. To include it would have been one line. That it wasn't speaks volumes to me. Summed up as "They don't."

I think the designers saw no need for it since animals are simply to be killed. As you yourself say, and I've been trying to but apparently failing, animal combat is a simple abstract. Regaining consciousness is an unnecessary complication for general play.

Making up other rules is of course where the ref comes in. You could (would) apply the rules for characters, though I wouldn't as I think they are far from realistic for most cases. Though as you say, it's already there. I'd use it only if the characters was specifically trying to capture the animal and NOT mortally wound it. Heck, having said that, I'm now tempted to apply the same rule to character combat :devil: (...but it is deadly enough anyway). Though of course the flip-side supports your choice.

The combat stats are no different.

Except they are. Animals don't have 3 areas to divide damage among and don't have a Serious Wound level. They have 2 areas, apply to first then second, unconscious and dead only.

I don't think the game designers were trying to invent rules that fit animals specifically.

But they did. And I think it was intentional. It is not a simple adaptation. If it were why go to all the trouble they did with the specific differences and not just copy the character rules. Or, since that was already covered, using your logic, simply say "Use the character combat rules."
Also, like everything in Classic Traveller, I think the simple, playable rule is subject to GM interpretation and tweaks...

...So, the quick-n-easy GM uses the human rule for unconscious: The animal is out for 10 minutes, and upon regaining consciousness, the animal gains back half its "unconscious" value.

This quicker-n-easier GM uses the RAW, animals don't regain consciousness

...The GM that wants some more detail can decide to "tweak" this a bit...

Which I totally agree with (and more should feel free to jump in and do that)

I think we can amiably agree to disagree on the intent of the designers and the rules.

 

[aramis]

More accurately,

People: 3 areas, which is hit is random on first hit, and choice on later hits. One out is short term KO, 2 out is longer term KO and no recovery on one's own, 3 out is dead.
Animals: 2 areas, hit 1st number until 0, then second number until 0, indefinite duration KO when first one out, dead when second out. Usually 1st number is larger, but not always.

It's not just lower detail, it's a substantially different approach.

If you want to abstract the People to Animal levels of detail, Add lowest and median stats to get HTU, and use highest as HTD, and ignore the first-hit rule, the 10min KO when zeroed, and drive on...

 

[Supplement Four]

I think we can amiably agree to disagree on the intent of the designers and the rules.

As always.