CT Only: A Comment on Hits

[Blue Ghost]

Adam, your next post will be 700. Congrats.

Saber; it's interesting that you should bring up the wargame element of Traveller, because it differs from D&D not only that it's a scifi setting (D&D has a handful of scifi modules), but D&D doesn't have things like action points, various partial covers, terrain effects on ranged weapons (or not so that I recall), range bands and so forth.

I've had a DM roll for morale in one wargame scenario where my fighter character was leading something like 100 or so swordsmen against some kind of orc horde attacking a city we were visiting. I can't remember all the details, but this was before D&D had skills or feats, and this was long before Pathfinder came into being. For whatever reason, after having their number reduced by 90%, my dudes held, and we fought on--though I think at that point we high tailed it back to the city. And admittedly I did that for some "good guy" NPCs in Traveller (the infamous FASA Hotel "rescue the hostages" in the penthouse scenario, a favorite of mine). Apparently hotel security guards quake their knees a lot when confronting the 3I's version of terrorists.

But yeah, I tried rolling for the players, but I slammed against a wall of resistance. "This is to see if you guys hold or surrender." Which was met with a unified "Oh come on!" I'm not sure what else to say on this side thread.

 

[mike wightman]

I agree with you, in my years of experience with rpgs players do not like a morale system telling them how to play their characters. And no, they are not bad players.

Players tend to see their character as the hero of the story, and in heroic fiction the hero never runs away - unless driven to do so by obvious overwhelming odds.

 

[kilemall]

Rolls for NPC morale/reaction all day long, but game consequences for PCs.

 

[Supplement Four]

I agree with you, in my years of experience with rpgs players do not like a morale system telling them how to play their characters. And no, they are not bad players.

Most morale systems, as that in CT, applies to NPCs and not PCs.

 

[Adam Dray]

Adam, your next post will be 700. Congrats.

Thanks! But not quite. That was my 669th post, not my 699th.

 

[Adam Dray]

I reviewed the morale rules on p36 of LBB1. They tell players how to play their characters. My system is better: "We're not going to tell you what you do, but we'll make it harder to continue fighting."

 

[mike wightman]

Most morale systems, as that in CT, applies to NPCs and not PCs.

There is nothing to say the morale rules apply only to NPC parties...

MORALE
A party of adventurers which sustains casualties in an encounter will ultimately break or rout if it does not achieve victory. At the point in time when 20% of a party is unconscious or killed, the party must begin making morale throws. For an average party, 7+ is the throw to stand, or not break and run. Valiant parties may have a higher throw. DMs are allowed: +1 if the party is a military unit; +1 if a leader (leader skill) is present; +1 if the leader has any tactical skill; -2 if the leader is killed (for two rounds at least, and until a new leader takes control); -2 if casualties (unconscious and dead) exceed 50%.

Looks like is applies to PCs and NPCs alike.

 

[sabredog]

As with any and all parts of an RPG, the morale rules as written can be modded or ignored in whole or in part.

Myself, I roll morale for the NPC's because unless dictated by things like a rare situation, racial traits or cultural tradition, a fight to the death isn't usually going to happen. And they are, due to the lethal nature of Traveller combat, likely to lead to a lot of chargen if always treated as if every fight was a last stand.

For the players I use the rolls to determine initiative and to give them something to use their skills on that otherwise they may never get. It can also be a way to give the players a sort of 'sixth sense' that results in them being told some hints on how the bad guys look or not depending on how the roll goes. They gain an edge or pick up a generic DM.

Morale rolls are, to me, just a part of the blend I use to keep things moving and interesting in my game sessions. I don't always use them, but I don't always use all the rules in every situation, either. It's just another tool on the belt.

Your mileage, and how you get there, may vary.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Thanks! But not quite. That was my 669th post, not my 699th.

* face palm *

 

[Blue Ghost]

As with any and all parts of an RPG, the morale rules as written can be modded or ignored in whole or in part.

Myself, I roll morale for the NPC's because unless dictated by things like a rare situation, racial traits or cultural tradition, a fight to the death isn't usually going to happen. And they are, due to the lethal nature of Traveller combat, likely to lead to a lot of chargen if always treated as if every fight was a last stand.

For the players I use the rolls to determine initiative and to give them something to use their skills on that otherwise they may never get. It can also be a way to give the players a sort of 'sixth sense' that results in them being told some hints on how the bad guys look or not depending on how the roll goes. They gain an edge or pick up a generic DM.

Morale rolls are, to me, just a part of the blend I use to keep things moving and interesting in my game sessions. I don't always use them, but I don't always use all the rules in every situation, either. It's just another tool on the belt.

Your mileage, and how you get there, may vary.

But if the pirates or whoever get the drop on you, and fire first, and hit first, then there's a chance your players are going to surrender without much of a fight. Largely because those first rounds are going to get scored against one of the three stats, rendering them unconscious.

It's not a big issue with me, but it is a pet peeve.

 

[aramis]

No, but you have to admit that it's the primary reward for doing so, and since experience leads to levels, and levels are the way to advance in the average game....
.

Nope. You get full XP for any "defeat" - and it's clear as day in the rules text of most that defeat ≠ kill. It's only AD&D 1E that uses "XP for Monsters Slain"... but the primary there is Treasure, not monster slaying. (see AD&D [1e] DMG, p. 86)

In AD&D, it's literally better to be a successful merchant than a monster hunter.

the D&D Cyclopedia says this:

Characters earn experience points by defeating monsters and other opponents. Defeating a monster doesn't necessarily mean killing it; defeating an opponent can mean killing it, capturing it, tricking it into destroying itself, trapping it forever so that it can't menace the rest of the world, and so forth.

Moldvay

"Hit dice" also determine both the chances of a monster's attack being successful and the number of experience points a character will get for defeating it.

 

[whartung]

Nope. You get full XP for any "defeat" - and it's clear as day in the rules text of most that defeat ≠ kill.

Well, I can't say I ever trapped, tricked, or captured a monster in D&D.

And, apparently, making them "run away" is not defeating them. These all seem to be "permanent" measures of some kind.

 

[Travellerspud]

Back in the day, carrying extra food to use as "bribes" for unintelligent creatures who were chasing you was a thing (and got you XP typically, at least in our games). Same for negotiating your way past intelligent creatures (although paying bribes subtracted the XP of the bribe, IIRC). Everyone seemed to have a weird (basically useless to them, but magical and useful to someone) item or two that they would try to use as bribes....and of course the old trick "I hold the wand of lightning bolts and offer to trade....then say the command word"....

I like the CT system, with first blood as-is. Interpreting it into an exciting element that adds to the story line is the trick....(ie-if it doesn't knock you out, and doesn't move you to serious, it was a flesh wound "you get grazed by a bullet again").

 

[Supplement Four]

There is nothing to say the morale rules apply only to NPC parties...




Looks like is applies to PCs and NPCs alike.

You would have won money from me on that one. I must be thinking of AD&D or another game.

 

[mike wightman]

I don't think I ever used it for a PC party...

 

[aramis]

Well, I can't say I ever trapped, tricked, or captured a monster in D&D.

And, apparently, making them "run away" is not defeating them. These all seem to be "permanent" measures of some kind.

I've had players do all of the above. And, at least in AD&D 2, it's very explicitly not "kill"...

The characters must be victorious over the creature, which is not necessarily synonymous with killing it. Victory can take many forms. Slaying the enemy is obviously victory; accepting surrender is victory; routing the enemy is victory; pressuring the enemy to leave a particular neck of the woods because things are getting too hot is a kind of victory.
A creature needn't die for the characters to score a victory. If the player
ingeniously persuade the dragon to leave the village alone, this is as much--if not more--a victory as chopping the beast into dragonburgers!

Note that "routing the enemy".... that's making them retreat.

Even 3.5 E doesn't require kill nor capture... page 38-39 makes it clear that if the goal is getting past a guardian, sneaking past is full XP.

 

[Supplement Four]

I reviewed the morale rules on p36 of LBB1. They tell players how to play their characters.

I wouldn't say that they "tell players how to play their characters." I'd instead say that the morale rules can implement an effect on the character. This is akin to be struck by a Fear spell in D&D.

 

[Adam Dray]

Sure, fine. Semantics.

As evidenced by the above anecdotes others shared, players feel like you're telling them how to play their character when you do this.

Again, I prefer to just give them penalties to show the effect of the fear / shock / PTSD and so on, rather than dictate action.

 

[sabredog]

Sure, fine. Semantics.

As evidenced by the above anecdotes others shared, players feel like you're telling them how to play their character when you do this.

Again, I prefer to just give them penalties to show the effect of the fear / shock / PTSD and so on, rather than dictate action.

Wouldn't those penalties just be the same thing we are describing?

 

[Supplement Four]

Sure, fine. Semantics.

As evidenced by the above anecdotes others shared, players feel like you're telling them how to play their character when you do this.

Again, I prefer to just give them penalties to show the effect of the fear / shock / PTSD and so on, rather than dictate action.

Are you OK with Fear spells in D&D?

Are you OK with lowered stats in CT when a character is injured (another effect forced on the player)?

Are you OK with NPC reaction rolls to a player's PC?