X-boat route silliness

[rancke]

I just had a look at Dan (Far-trader)'s Traveller blog, and it reminded me of a couple of bits of legacy canon that it positively astonishes me remain un-retconned. One is the absurd and completely unjustifiable maneuver-drive-less X-boat. The other is the likewise absurd randomly generated X-boat routes.

I can understand (though I don't agree with) the reluctance to overwrite the considerable amount of material there exists about the X-boat -- setting material, deck plans, the X-boat Tender, etc.. Personally I don't see why most of it couldn't be salvaged. Just add a small maneuver drive to the X-boat, keep the X-boat Tender as is just and change the description of SOP from the tender moving to the X-boat to the X-boat moving to the tender.

But the routes just require a few changes to the maps. Easily enough done and doesn't ruin anything.

Even if you assume that the X-boats have been pretty much irrelevant (superceded in use if not in budget allocations by Navy couriers) ever since the invention of jump-5, there are still routes that make no sense even with jump-4 routes. The six-jump link from Icetina/Lanth to Regina/Regina to cover 11 parsecs is one example. Much worse, though, is the three-jump link from Icetina to Rhylanor to cover a four-parsec gap.

An X-boat link is not a track laid in space. It is two X-boat stations within four parsecs of each other and a Scout administrator deciding to send an X-boat from one to the other. That the Scouts wouldn't send X-boats directly from Icetina to Rhylanor simply beggars belief.

Is there really no way to persuade TPTB to retcon some of the sillier X-boat routes? I don't ask for actually optimized routes (as long as it is assumed that the X-boats no longer has any practical function but is merely a huge boondoggle), but things like the Icetina to Rhylanor link is just painful to contemplate.

Some of the doglegs (like Rhylanor to Risek via Jae Tellonae and Risek to Inthe via Dhian) could be redeemed by assuming that jump-4 connections that bypasses the intermediate stops are implied. But others just make no sense at all. Roup to Efate, Feri to Kinorb... :nonono:

Here's my recipe for sorting out the X-boat routes:

1) Make a list of worlds linked by the X-boats.

2) Go through the list and note every one of them that might rate an X-boat connection in its own right. In addition to the no-brainers (subsector capitals and high-tech, high-population worlds) you can use bribery and corruption as an explanation (Though that still requires coming up with someone who is willing to pay the bribe). After all, with jump-5 and jump-6 readily available, the X-boat network is largely irrelevant anyway. The Scout branch in charge of them must have been fighting to justify their budget since 700 and using it to feather their pockets at the same time. That's plausible enough.

3) Eliminate the ones that can't possibly be justified, like Pixie.

4) Connect the worlds that remain on the list by the most reasonable links. Whenever possible, use worlds that were on the original list whenever there's a choice of intermediate worlds.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

I just had a look at Dan (Far-trader)'s Traveller blog...

Umm, I'm sorry?



Was it something way back or my more recent musings on spam Just curious.

Much worse, though, is the three-jump link from Icetina to Rhylanor to cover a four-parsec gap.

...things like the Icetina to Rhylanor link is just painful to contemplate.

Yeah, that one is a head scratcher. Politics maybe, but that's an answer that gets overused.

...others just make no sense at all. Roup to Efate, Feri to Kinorb... :nonono:

Requirements to hit bases? ...but then explain skipping Mirriam in Vilis SS.

 

[rancke]

Umm, I'm sorry?



Was it something way back or my more recent musings on spam Just curious.

It was your answer to the question about the Scout logo with the poni.

Yeah, that one is a head scratcher. Politics maybe, but that's an answer that gets overused.

Politics is fine if you can think of someone with a believable political agenda and the clout to implement said politics. Given that civilian jump-3 and jump-4traffic between Mora and Rhylanor outpaces the X-boats even if you don't believe (as I do) in the existence of jump-5 and jump-6 passenger liners between major high-population worlds, I can't figure out anyone that would benefit from delaying the X-mail to and from Rhylanor by two weeks.

Requirements to hit bases?

I don't see why, seeing as the Navy has its own (jump-6) couriers. But that wasn't what I meant. I meant that given a set of X-boat stations that you have to service, you wouldn't run your boats along the canonical X-boat routes in a lot of cases.

As an example, given that you want to service Efate, Feri, Boughene, and Kinorb from Roup, you wouldn't do it the canonical way of Roup to Feri, Feri to Boughene, Boughene to Efate and Boughhene to Kinorb via Pixie. Rather, you'd have Roup to Efate, Roup to Boughene, Roup to Feri, and Feri to Kinorb[*].

That way Efate gets its news from Regina in two weeks instead of four, Boughene gets it in one week instead of two, and Kinorb gets it in three weeks instead of five. And you use 20% less X-boats, which may actually be a disadvantage for a service eager to keep up its budget, but then you can add a link from Efate to Feri (see footnote).

[*] If Kinorb got its X-boat station because it is full of vacationing businessmen from Efate (my explanation for it), you add a link from Efate to Feri.​

 

[Brandon C]

Frankly, I can see Naval couriers and X-boats coexisting: the couriers are only for Imperial Navy business, the X-boats for non-Navy business.

I can also agree with minimal maneuvrr drives for an X-boat, but closer to .1G than 1G.

 

[Gray Pennell]

In defense of jump 4 routes I say not everyone have access to higher jump capable ships and navy couriers. Looking at the Five Sisters there is definitely needs something to cross the empty space between the core and rimward system. I ll even have ferry ships.

Now you could set up jump six routes but you would skip some systems delaying messages because you have to double back to. Another issue is that since 700 business would have built up over those routes so changing a route will result in chaos.

In South south Texas a railroad was built connecting the board area with the Houston area in 1911. Since trunking and air traffic take care of modern shipping needs the rail only carries super bulky stuff like coal. The Cities however built up around the stops. Since 2000 they have been trying to move the train out of the cities for safety and express. It is said it will cost in the 10's of billions. Imagine trying to do this across 100s of parsecs.

Now you could bring some jump 5 or even jump 6 routes online over time. Maybe as super express boats. They would be the backbone of the network with the jump 4 moving to feeder routes or opening up new routes.

As far as the xboats go they just designers taking the design a bit to far. Weight isnt an issue if your just talking messages. Now if your talking packages thats a whole new ball of wax

 

[rancke]

Frankly, I can see Naval couriers and X-boats coexisting: the couriers are only for Imperial Navy business, the X-boats for non-Navy business.

So can I. According to the story, the X-boats were conceived as a means of shortening the information lag between the core and the fringe of the Imperium. I can't see the emperor and the dukes failing to forward orders and reports by the fastest available means and I can't see the Imperial Navy refusing to carry government dispatches. That obviates the need for the Imperium funding the X-boats in addition to the Imperial Navy once the IN gets jump-5 couriers.

I use that as an explanation for the parlous state of the X-boat network in the Classic Era. It has been largely irrelevant for 400 years. But, you know, once upon a time the X-boat service must have been hell-bent on wringing every last bit of speed out of their jump-4 ships. Back in 700 the netwqork must have made sense. Bureaucratic inertia being what it is, it still ought to mostly make sense and any changes must have been for reasons someone thought good.

But now we come to the civilian side of it. We know for a fact that civilians are allowed to have jump-5 ships (there's a reference to Oberlindes having jump-5 couriers). If we take the ship design rules at face value, civilians are allowed jump-6 ships too (PCs can have jump-6 ships built if they have the money).

Whatever the case with jump-6, jump-5 passenger liners are a possibility. If even a handful of millionaires and powerful corporate managers and high government officials are willing to pay the admittedly steep price of jump-5 passenger service (or, in the case of managers and bureaucrats, be willing to have their organizations pay the price for them) between selected important worlds (like all sector capitals), information will be brought along with those liners, beating the X-boats like a big bass drum. Jump-6 mertely makes the boom bigger.

I can also agree with minimal maneuver drives for an X-boat, but closer to .1G than 1G.

You'll get no arguments from me. Might get some from people who think the rules disallowing fractional maneuver drives means that fractional maneuver drives are physically impossible.


Hans

 

[rancke]

In defense of jump 4 routes I say not everyone have access to higher jump capable ships and navy couriers.

No, and evidently the X-boat Service does not have the budget to upgrade even on the trunk routes.

Looking at the Five Sisters there is definitely needs something to cross the empty space between the core and rimward system. I ll even have ferry ships.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Now you could set up jump six routes but you would skip some systems delaying messages because you have to double back to.

So keep the jump-4 net. Canon says the busy routes have an X-boat leaving every six hours. Along the trunk routes you change that to evey eight hours and send off a jump-6 X-boat every other day. You'd improve communication speed tremendously and still stay within the same budget.

Another issue is that since 700 business would have built up over those routes so changing a route will result in chaos.

1) I doubt that very much.

2) See above.

In South south Texas a railroad was built connecting the board area with the Houston area in 1911. Since trunking and air traffic take care of modern shipping needs the rail only carries super bulky stuff like coal. The Cities however built up around the stops. Since 2000 they have been trying to move the train out of the cities for safety and express. It is said it will cost in the 10's of billions. Imagine trying to do this across 100s of parsecs.

X-boat don't run on rails. All you need to do to change a route is to move an X-boat Tender from one system to another and to change the coordinates of the X-boat jumps. Sometimes you wouldn't even need to move a tender, just change the jump. It would be hard to imagine anything more (potentially) versatile than X-boats.

Now you could bring some jump 5 or even jump 6 routes online over time. Maybe as super express boats. They would be the backbone of the network with the jump 4 moving to feeder routes or opening up new routes.

400 years seems enough time to get something done. Even a mere century would seem to be time enough.


Hans

 

[Garyius2003]

I just had a look at Dan (Far-trader)'s Traveller blog, and it reminded me of a couple of bits of legacy canon that it positively astonishes me remain un-retconned. One is the absurd and completely unjustifiable maneuver-drive-less X-boat. The other is the likewise absurd randomly generated X-boat routes.



Hans

Yes, and no. The American freeway system only half makes sense, the other half varies between political muscle in a given city in the 50s, or pure corruption back then.

I agree, though, that jumping a few tenders and re building a new base with a few thousand tons of ramp space, hanger/shops, HQ, and living quarters for 3-400 scouts don't seem like a big drop in the 3I budget. On the other hand, the 3I is 1100 years old. Maybe they have massive regulations that allow moves like that to be blocked (such as with the US Army armored vehicle rebasing being blocked in real life). Maybe a baron makes his income off the scout base supply business (or his friends do).

Maybe, just maybe, Megas and large regionals rely on info spreading in a pattern, and they invested in couriers and distribution facilities to take advantage. That would account for many reports being produced every decade, with no final decision ever being made.



Or maybe I just love the LBB for the Marches so much I demand nothing change, it only gets more detailed. That was the first book I had to "rebind" with tape.

 

[Dragoner]

Or maybe I just love the LBB for the Marches so much I demand nothing change, it only gets more detailed. That was the first book I had to "rebind" with tape.

Aptly named thread when one talks of destroying 33 year old material. I found that one could erase and change the print in S3 (at age 14 my friends and I decided to 'high guard' the marches), I penciled it back in years later but still.

IMO the x-boat network is for control and dissemination of information, especially popular info, cultural stuff, entertainment, official announcements, etc.; while the navy and megacorps have their own networks they work from. The lack of a m-drive is to prevent barratry by the crew or others, seeing that information can be valuable and the x-boats act in a similar way to armored cars with currency today.

 

[rancke]

Yes, and no. The American freeway system only half makes sense, the other half varies between political muscle in a given city in the 50s, or pure corruption back then.

There must still have been reasons for the twists and turns of the nonsensicval half. No one expends political capital or bribe money for no reason.

On the other hand, the 3I is 1100 years old. Maybe they have massive regulations that allow moves like that to be blocked (such as with the US Army armored vehicle rebasing being blocked in real life). Maybe a baron makes his income off the scout base supply business (or his friends do).

Then why don't they have massive regulations that prevented the original twisting of the routes? Back in the late 7th Century, when the X-boat people were planning how to cover the Marches, someone measured the distance between Mora and Rhylanor. "Rhylanor is one of the four most important worlds in the Marches," he said, "so we have to get there by as short a route as we can. Let's see. It's 10 parsecs, so we need three links. Hmm... no worlds in between that rates a link in their own right... Mora to Somem, Somem to Gitosy, and Gitosy to Rhylanor seems the best bet. Next, how about Heroni and Natoko? They both have populations in the billions." "We have a bribe from the 10,000 people on Garrinckski to put the link through them instead." "Yeah, I can just see Heroni and Natoko standing for that! But, seriously, they are a bit of a problem because of the big chunk of empty space between them and Mora" "They're both four parsecs from Somem. Have links to them both from there." Etc. etc..

What happened between then and now?

Maybe, just maybe, Megas and large regionals rely on info spreading in a pattern, and they invested in couriers and distribution facilities to take advantage. That would account for many reports being produced every decade, with no final decision ever being made.

They can't do that. Leaving aside the question of whether the Imperium can prevent civilians from taking advantage of jump-5 and jump-6 (IMO it can't, at least not without becoming far more oppressive than it is generally portrayed), no corporation can prevent information from going pretty much directly from one high-population world to the next. All an information broker needs to do is buy a ticket to one of the many regular jump-4 liners that would connect such worlds. The owner of the ship might get an 8-hour jump on such people by blocking communication between the ship and the destination world, but there's no way to take advantage of twisting an X-boat route to impose week-long delays.

Or maybe I just love the LBB for the Marches so much I demand nothing change, it only gets more detailed. That was the first book I had to "rebind" with tape.

I like the Spinward Marches so much that it disturbs me to see it broken and twisted. That's why I'd like to mend it.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Aptly named thread when one talks of destroying 33 year old material.

I don't see the age as relevant. Either it is broken or it isn't. I don't think it is silly to fix broken things.

IMO the x-boat network is for control and dissemination of information, especially popular info, cultural stuff, entertainment, official announcements, etc.; while the navy and megacorps have their own networks they work from.

It would be nice if that explanation worked, but it doesn't. Civilian traffic outperforms the X-boat network.

The lack of a m-drive is to prevent barratry by the crew or others, seeing that information can be valuable and the x-boats act in a similar way to armored cars with currency today.

Except it doesn't prevent a suborned X-boat pilot from jumping to somewhere where an accomplice waits with a ship to pick him up.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

I don't see the age as relevant. Either it is broken or it isn't. I don't think it is silly to fix broken things.



It would be nice if that explanation worked, but it doesn't. Civilian traffic outperforms the X-boat network.



Except it doesn't prevent a suborned X-boat pilot from jumping to somewhere where an accomplice waits with a ship to pick him up.


Hans

In short, The Emperor has no clothes"...

 

[Brandon C]

So can I. According to the story, the X-boats were conceived as a means of shortening the information lag between the core and the fringe of the Imperium. I can't see the emperor and the dukes failing to forward orders and reports by the fastest available means and I can't see the Imperial Navy refusing to carry government dispatches. That obviates the need for the Imperium funding the X-boats in addition to the Imperial Navy once the IN gets jump-5 couriers.

I'm not so sure about that. If the tradition has been established that Naval ships don't carry non-Naval information or passengers, I think it's reasonable to assume the Navy will fight tooth and nail to keep the tradition intact. Nobles who want J-5 or J-6 might have to fund their own private long-distance couriers.

Whatever the case with jump-6, jump-5 passenger liners are a possibility.

Depending on the ruleset, they will have to charge a freat deal more than standard rates to make a profit. If they are operated commercially.

If even a handful of millionaires and powerful corporate managers and high government officials are willing to pay the admittedly steep price of jump-5 passenger service (or, in the case of managers and bureaucrats, be willing to have their organizations pay the price for them) between selected important worlds (like all sector capitals), information will be brought along with those liners, beating the X-boats like a big bass drum. Jump-6 mertely makes the boom bigger.

However, the info they bring will be oriented to their specific interests. Information of general interest to an Imperial citizen will be lacking.

You'll get no arguments from me. Might get some from people who think the rules disallowing fractional maneuver drives means that fractional maneuver drives are physically impossible.

Depends on the ruleset. I know CT ad MT only use whole numbers and GT allows fractional acceleration. Not sure about the other versions.

 

[Brandon C]

The lack of a m-drive is to prevent barratry by the crew or others, seeing that information can be valuable and the x-boats act in a similar way to armored cars with currency today.

The lack of a M-drive makes the X-boat a navigational hazard for other ships in the system. It also makes it an easy target for pirates, spies and such.

 

[far-trader]

The canonical reason for the lack of a maneuver drive is the ship is too tightly fitted for it's mission to spare any room for a maneuver drive.

The rule reason is because the xboat was originally designed with 1st printing of Book 2 design rules where no maneuver drive saves 45tons because it would need the maneuver drive A (1ton and 4G), a powerplant A (4tons and not needed for the jump drive in 1st printing) and fuel for the powerplant for 4 weeks of maneuvering (40tons). Even cutting it to a canon breaking and dangerous 1 week of fuel only gets it down to 15tons added, and it still won't fit. That all changed with 2nd printing (where you can't even build it due to needing the powerplant and fuel). And even more so with High Guard (though the opposite effect in that you could now add a maneuver drive, but had to up the TL for the jump drive), and later rules went etc. etc. ...but the design was grandfathered in despite that. Oh, it's also listed as TL10 (minimum for the model/4 computer iirc).

As for being a navigation hazard without maneuver, nope, not buying it. They jump to the tender in the outer system per the description. An area that is bound to be off limits to general traffic for several reasons. Likewise it's not an easy target for pirates etc. for that reason and the armament of the tender to dissuade casual busy-bodies. As well as the usual scout/courier traffic around the tender.

 

[Dragoner]

The lack of a M-drive makes the X-boat a navigational hazard for other ships in the system. It also makes it an easy target for pirates, spies and such.

No moreso than any other ship.

 

[Brandon C]

No moreso than any other ship.

I strongly disagree. A ship incapable of maneuveting is vastly easier to run into.

 

[Dragoner]

I strongly disagree. A ship incapable of maneuveting is vastly easier to run into.

Do you run into parked cars? IMO ships will avoid areas when/where ships are jumping in, as well as be used to maneuvering around other ships/objects.

Hitting an x-boat is probably doubly bad, like colliding with a police cruiser irl.

 

[Brandon C]

Do you run into parked cars? IMO ships will avoid areas when/where ships are jumping in, as well as be used to maneuvering around other ships/objects.

What about ships coming out of jump at non-zero velocity? (I can think of two good reasons).

Hitting an x-boat is probably doubly bad, like colliding with a police cruiser irl.

It should't be clogging up the space lanes.

I agree eith Hans; jumping to the wrong system is a far more effective way of stealing its information than jumping to the right system and trying to make a run for it on (minimal) M-drives.

 

[rancke]

So can I. According to the story, the X-boats were conceived as a means of shortening the information lag between the core and the fringe of the Imperium. I can't see the emperor and the dukes failing to forward orders and reports by the fastest available means and I can't see the Imperial Navy refusing to carry government dispatches. That obviates the need for the Imperium funding the X-boats in addition to the Imperial Navy once the IN gets jump-5 couriers.

I'm not so sure about that. If the tradition has been established that Naval ships don't carry non-Naval information or passengers, I think it's reasonable to assume the Navy will fight tooth and nail to keep the tradition intact.

First of all, I can't see such a tradition arising. Carrying government dispatches has got to be a prime function of any interstellar navy. Even if the government establishes a separate postal service (which, mind you, the Imperium does not appear to have done prior to the X-boats, though that could just be lack of evidence), the navy works for the government; if the Emperor or a duke wants a dispatch sent somewhere, the local admiral is not going to refuse.

Secondly, if such a tradition had developed, see paragraph one. The navy works for the government.

Thirdly, if the IN didn't carry government dispatches, the X-boats would be jump-6.

Nobles who want J-5 or J-6 might have to fund their own private long-distance couriers.

Nobles acting in their private capacity, sure. But not government officials acting in their official capacity.

Whatever the case with jump-6, jump-5 passenger liners are a possibility.

Depending on the ruleset, they will have to charge a freat deal more than standard rates to make a profit. If they are operated commercially.

About four times as much as jump-3 (Depending a bit on the which rules set is closest to "reality"). Which is why I was talking about millionaires and people with wealthy organizations to pay for them. High-population worlds will have a large number of such people. Hence my assumption that there will be jump-5 and jump-6 passenger liners between high-population worlds.

However, the info they bring will be oriented to their specific interests. Information of general interest to an Imperial citizen will be lacking.

Unless a news service hits on the absolutely revolutionary idea of giving a crewmember a standing offer of a hundred credits for a news"paper" (newsholo?) from the world the ship came from.

There will be news services that could pay for tickets for couriers out of petty cash, but I don't think it would be necessary. If the Megacorporations don't carry mail, the small companies like Al Morai will. A news correspondent on a neighboring world would just record the news and mail it back to headquarters.


Hans