X-boat tender question

[aramis]

I think, if a Duke wants the X-Boat system to deliver a package, they'll deliver a package.

:rofl:

The Duke isn't in the chain of command of the IISS. Their answerability starts at the Domain.

If the duke asks nicely and bribes the pilot and the CO of the tender, perhaps... unless the package is the Duke himself. In which case, the duke is subjecting himself to the whims of said pilot.

 

[Enoki]

The Duke isn't in the chain of command of the IISS. Their answerability starts at the Domain.

If the duke asks nicely and bribes the pilot and the CO of the tender, perhaps... unless the package is the Duke himself. In which case, the duke is subjecting himself to the whims of said pilot.

I'd say, far more realistically, that the pilot is at the whim of the Duke. It'd be like saying powerful Senator so-and-so wants to ride "space available" on a military flight to wherever. Does anyone really think he's going to be told "No, we can't fit you in or do that, Senator"...?

Somebody that high up the food chain in an empire run by nobility isn't going to be told "no" by some commoner. The Scout Service would kiss his rosy red rectum and make sure he got a seat or whatever.

Now, they might give some lowly knight a hard time, might even stiff a baron at their own risk, but a duke? Not a chance. He's high enough up he knows people. And, he knows the sort of people that the next thing you discover is you are being reassigned to hazardous duty on some ship heading into oblivion, never to be seen again... Or, maybe to a desk where you supervise the parking lot attendants on a TL 5 class D starport world where salt and pepper are luxuries...

 

[savage]

The Duke isn't in the chain of command of the IISS. Their answerability starts at the Domain.

If the duke asks nicely and bribes the pilot and the CO of the tender, perhaps... unless the package is the Duke himself. In which case, the duke is subjecting himself to the whims of said pilot.

In other threads, everyone is saying Dukes can take leadership in the military structure of the navy and throw their weight around.

Yet, you think they cannot in the x-boat system.

I think the X-boat system as electronic only is a bit silly. Does the gov't need to dispatch a courier or warship for every little package? It would be easy for a cutter to pass packages onto the planet.

:rofl:

I should elaborate that IMTU it is a partially electronic communications system. I am referring to OTU above. Does anyone recall if there is a reference to the complete nature of x-boat mail?

 

[whulorigan]

I think the X-boat system as electronic only is a bit silly. Does the gov't need to dispatch a courier or warship for every little package? It would be easy for a cutter to pass packages onto the planet.

My thought has always been that there is a limited amount of high-priority (Read = "expensive" or "critical official") "physical" mail or parcels that an X-Boat may carry in its cargo volume. However, the majority of physical mail/parcels going through the IISS Communications Branch would be handled by Type S vessels in their "Courrier" role, dispatched from the X-Boat relay points.

Aside from that, physical mail would be handled by Subsidized Merchant/Liner contracts and local interstellar "Postal Unions".

 

[whartung]

There is certainly room for a diplomatic pouch on an X-Boat. Or even a diplomatic trunk.

It can even be locked and unavailable to the crew of the X-Boat.

The mechanics of getting the parcels to and from the X-Boat are the detail. The X-Boat would not linger waiting for such packages, rather be available to move them should be they be ready with the tender when the X-Boat is scheduled to leave.

X-Boats wait for no one.

 

[mike wightman]

The Duke isn't in the chain of command of the IISS. Their answerability starts at the Domain.

There is no domain level of government until Strephon's reforms...

If the duke asks nicely and bribes the pilot and the CO of the tender, perhaps... unless the package is the Duke himself. In which case, the duke is subjecting himself to the whims of said pilot.

There's an interesting adventure seed, many thanks for that one

Admirals can use the x-boat route in time of war to transfer from fleet to fleet...

 

[Enoki]

IMTU, there is something akin to Western Union (aka stellar telegraphy). A sort of megacorp that specializes in moving messages, information, and small packages as efficiently as possible from anywhere to anywhere.

To do this they've gone as near universal as possible. That might mean on some class D backwater starport they have a couple of locals who do other stuff as well sitting in an office near whatever passes for the starport that will fill the needs of people wanting to send a message.

Add that they make things as secure as they can and guarantee a delivery as quick as possible. They're not the government and make a point of ensuring privacy of the sender. They use small merchants like far traders, the X-boats, or other ships as available to move things. Since every, or nearly every, world has an office on it (even if it's just some guy in a closet sized office) the messages or packages get moved and have some degree of security in doing that.

There might be more than one company like this, but it is more likely that you have a single megacorp that everyone kind of knows and trusts to do this sort of thing for the most part.

Something like that makes sense. It would be like the Royal Mail in the time of sail.

 

[McPerth]

There is certainly room for a diplomatic pouch on an X-Boat. Or even a diplomatic trunk.

It can even be locked and unavailable to the crew of the X-Boat.

The mechanics of getting the parcels to and from the X-Boat are the detail. The X-Boat would not linger waiting for such packages, rather be available to move them should be they be ready with the tender when the X-Boat is scheduled to leave.

X-Boats wait for no one.

And that is on of the reasons I don't believe small packages go by X-boat. When an X-boat reaches a system, it electronically relays all information (probably by beam transmission) to the one waiting to leave, and the information goes to jump again hte next step in the chain.

Any physical package would have to wait for the tender to recover the X-boat, move the package to the next X-boat scheduled to the route and wait for it to jump (probably when the next one arrives). That would slow those packages.

So, my guess is that if the package is important enough, a naval (or its equivalent ciivilian) ship (probably J6 capable) will be dispatched to carry it. If there's not such an urgency, my guess is that most such packages are taken by commercial regular lineers (akin of the Mail contract) to the main worlds, and, from there, small freigters (be them subsized or free ones) take them as the Mail contracts shown in most Traveller versions.

There is no domain level of government until Strephon's reforms...

IIRC in MT is specified that the Archdukes had no real power, before Strephon reforms, not that there was no Domain level government or administration. Even without Archdukes or without empowering them, the Domains were kept after the Consolidation Wars (when they were important divisions, again IIRC), even if only as administrative divisions, and I guess this means some form of Domain level was kept, even if only testimonial.

Admirals can use the x-boat route in time of war to transfer from fleet to fleet...

I guess you take this from FFW...

Yes, aldmirals can use x-boat routes, but that does not mean at all that they travel in x-boats. The X-boat routes are also the major trade routes, and I guess the ones followed by regular lineers, so the aldmirals (or anyone else that can afford it) can travel following them, and not only in times of war.

My guess, htough, is that if they are hurried enough, they'll travel in J6 Fleet Courriers and not bound to x-boat routes, but tha is not represented in FFW game...

 

[Enoki]

And that is on of the reasons I don't believe small packages go by X-boat. When an X-boat reaches a system, it electronically relays all information (probably by beam transmission) to the one waiting to leave, and the information goes to jump again hte next step in the chain.

Except for information for that system... It could be downloaded once on the tender to another ship headed to the planet(s) in system. Again, a delay of an hour or two isn't critical considering that it took a week or more just to arrive in the system to begin with.
And, of course, there is still the problem of security. You'd have to have a physical link between the boats to avoid eavesdropping.
Given the way jumps work, taking an hour or two between arrival and the next boat leaving is really meaningless. It's still going to be in jump for 7 to 10 days. Just both boats sitting on the jump event horizon at 100+ diameters is a huge time saver. What's a couple of hours in a system compared to that?

Any physical package would have to wait for the tender to recover the X-boat, move the package to the next X-boat scheduled to the route and wait for it to jump (probably when the next one arrives). That would slow those packages.

That's only a problem if it's going on to another system. Even then, a few hours delay is nothing. The jump consumes all the time between systems.

So, my guess is that if the package is important enough, a naval (or its equivalent ciivilian) ship (probably J6 capable) will be dispatched to carry it. If there's not such an urgency, my guess is that most such packages are taken by commercial regular lineers (akin of the Mail contract) to the main worlds, and, from there, small freigters (be them subsized or free ones) take them as the Mail contracts shown in most Traveller versions.

Don't see it. Why dispatch a naval vessel specifically to deliver a package unless it were ultra-critical? The cost of operation, the crew, etc., would be enormous.
That's one of the big selling points of the X-boat system: It is more cost effective than alternatives.
Sure, bulk mail would go by regular merchant ship on contract, or by small merchants to systems with less traffic or profitability.

 

[Whipsnade]

Which I'm sure is as secure as a certain someone's e-mail server...

Physical mail isn't secure, yet we've used it a "penny post" for centuries.

I doubt that businesses and politicians would trust the system to transmit their sensitive data anywhere.

You forgetting that anyone important enough has their own, faster couriers which fly more rationale routes. You're also forgetting that the x-boat system is a control system rather than a communications system.

Or, military operated ones with the same sort of thing going on for classified data.

The military has it's own couriers too.

Robbing the secure X-boat delivery because someone wants the data its carrying...

I've run one. DGP's first Four Knights featured an x-boat robbery of sorts too.

I'd think most actually do even if it amounts to just a few kilos in weight simply because there is going to be a constant demand whether it is a critical part or information.

I do too, I just don't think that every boat on every jump will be carrying something.

I'd think that would be the norm. Several tenders in the system that "nest"...

IIRC, the current consensus has a "nest" for each x-boat link within a system, mainly due to vector issues. (Canonically, vectors are retained through jump, most people don't use it as it's usually more bother than it's worth.) Regina, for example, would have three "nests", Jewell four, Capital five, and so on.

 

[Enoki]

Physical mail isn't secure, yet we've used it a "penny post" for centuries.

Registered mail? Certified mail?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_mail

Those are reasonably secure depending on the nation. I'd think they'd have something similar in the Imperium, and possibly elsewhere.

You forgetting that anyone important enough has their own, faster couriers which fly more rationale routes. You're also forgetting that the x-boat system is a control system rather than a communications system.

That could cost literally billions of credits to put in place and maintain. I can't see even a megacorp needing such a system on a widespread and regular basis. It'd simply cost far too much to maintain.
Now, I could see them having gone to the Imperial government (in whatever form it was at the time) and getting something like they needed in that respect added to the X-boats or "Imperial Mail service" or whatever the mail system is called.
That major companies would have fast executive ships for top management and special needs I'd think was the norm, but for even important but relatively routine communications having a dedicated system of couriers and ships would simply be too expensive.
I could see the megacorps that have ships in their employ using those as available to move internal information, but not doing that exclusive of other purposes.

The military has it's own couriers too.

Same thing. I could see some limited use of these for really critical or secret stuff, but for routine low level classified stuff it would be really expensive. If they were really concerned about leaks using an officer or high ranked NCO as a courier using a mix of civil and military transport would be a cheaper and safer alternative.
Using warships and such were available would be done too.

I do too, I just don't think that every boat on every jump will be carrying something.

Maybe not every, but I'd think it was pretty common.

IIRC, the current consensus has a "nest" for each x-boat link within a system, mainly due to vector issues. (Canonically, vectors are retained through jump, most people don't use it as it's usually more bother than it's worth.) Regina, for example, would have three "nests", Jewell four, Capital five, and so on.

I require ships to be at a stop to jump unless you want increased risk of misjump or problems on arrival. Having momentum while jumping IMTU has the same effect as being inside 100 D. So, the boats should arrive in a fairly small region consistently... Depending on pilot / engineer skill and how hard the boat is being used.
As for tenders, I'd assume that there are several at a minimum in any system and the number increases as the number of links in the system increase. That allows for maintenance, better coverage of the arrival area, and overlap when a tender is moving a boat to be repaired or replaced, that sort of thing.

 

[flykiller]

I can't see even a megacorp needing such a system on a widespread and regular basis. It'd simply cost far too much to maintain.

probably not. high level ceo goes to a noble - maybe it's the same person - and proposes to buy some obsolete but serviceable ships at a discount, maintain them at corporate yards on planets that need some extra jobs and so are subsidized by the imperium in the name of industrial development ....

 

[Enoki]

probably not. high level ceo goes to a noble - maybe it's the same person - and proposes to buy some obsolete but serviceable ships at a discount, maintain them at corporate yards on planets that need some extra jobs and so are subsidized by the imperium in the name of industrial development ....

Better the corporation sells off or leases repos and used ships to individuals who are responsible for their operating costs. If the corporation owns them, they have to pay those operating costs. At anything up to 100,000 Cr or more a month per ship, that gets real expensive real quick.
Better to sell or lease to an operator, maybe include a contract to haul for the corporation at a fixed rate, but that still means most of these ships are much slower than X-boats would be (J1 or 2 at most) as a J4 small transport would never be able to generate a profit.

 

[Whipsnade]

Registered mail? Certified mail?

Exactly. You can steal or divert physical mails as easily as you can intercept "radio" mails. During the early part of WW2, the UK routinely diverted physical mails leaving North America to Bermuda where they were "inspected" before being sent on. It's dead simple if you don't mind reading other people's mail.

Speaking of radio, starting with MT the x-boat system seems - seems mind you - to use masers which makes interception more - not impossible, just more - difficult.

Those are reasonably secure depending on the nation. I'd think they'd have something similar in the Imperium, and possibly elsewhere.

They do, you're just not doing the math. How much physical mail can fit on 1 dTon compared to how much electronic mail? And regular shipping - remember those subsidized merchants and their mail contracts? - are going to carry more physical mail to more places than the x-boats can carry or go to.

People are going to send letters. It will cost a lot, but they'll still send them. Sometimes, sending virtual mail will be good enough.

That could cost literally billions of credits to put in place and maintain. I can't see even a megacorp needing such a system on a widespread and regular basis. It'd simply cost far too much to maintain.

We already know they've got them. MT's Rebellion Sourcebook says as much. Don't forget that the megacorp courier systems are going to skip over even more worlds than the x-boat system does. Such systems aren't covering 11,000 worlds or even small fraction of that.

Same thing (re: IN jump6 couriers - Whipsnade).

It is the same because we already know they do it too and from the same source.

The movers & shakers have their own couriers and so get the news much faster than the unwashed masses.

I require...

It doesn't matter what you or I require. Vector retention is canonical. You never used it and I rarely imposed, but it is canonical.

As for tenders, I'd assume that there are several at a minimum in any system and the number increases as the number of links in the system increase. That allows for maintenance, better coverage of the arrival area, and overlap when a tender is moving a boat to be repaired or replaced, that sort of thing.

It's one per link with maybe one or more in-system for maintenance, crew rotation, and so forth. Anything more is a waste of tenders, manpower, and money.

The arrival area is relatively tiny. Jump's physical accuracy is 3,000km per parsec so a 'boat on a 4 parsec hop is going to arrive in a sphere 12,000km in radius. A one gee tender can cover that volume in a trivial amount of time and, seeing as it's handling one arrival and departure every 24 hours, it has the time.

 

[aramis]

Registered mail? Certified mail?

Routinely subject to being opened and read in most of the world.
I've seen it happen.

Maybe not every, but I'd think it was pretty common.

1. it's not their job. Their job is information, not stuff.
2. Physical mail has huge sorting needs; it is unlikely to be able to do the needed sort on the tenders. Specialized machinery or physical bodies, but either way, it's space intensive.
3. A separate and less expensive method is available and already in place. for routine traffic.
4. Naval and Nobles have their own courier systems. Oberlindes operates in the Domain of Deneb; Marc Haut Oberlindes runs it; it's J6, and Norris is aware of it. Norris also knows and uses the Naval J6 courier system.

We are given pricing for X-mail. It ain't cheap. Cr10 per 20 kilobits per parsec. Depending upon character set, let's see. 26≤2^x x=5b makes it true, average word is 6 characters (5+space), so... 666 words. Going to a 6 b letter size (64 character set), we get 555 words. Looks like a 6b character set, much like the early digital teletypes.

We know that 20 kb (kilobits) = 2.5 kB (kilobytes), and is tiny by TL8; 10 GB per CC is typical. Sending a program via Xmail... say, Chrome? 32 MB. 32*1024 kB. Cr131072. Yes, KCr131 to ship a browser via x-mail. FAR cheaper to send it as a 50g 2cc thumb drive, and send it in a physical mailer at Cr25 per parsec minimum. (if you're sending it to a bunch of people there, it may be worthwhile to just buy the ton-sized lot...)

 

[savage]

My thought has always been that there is a limited amount of high-priority (Read = "expensive" or "critical official") "physical" mail or parcels that an X-Boat may carry in its cargo volume. However, the majority of physical mail/parcels going through the IISS Communications Branch would be handled by Type S vessels in their "Courrier" role, dispatched from the X-Boat relay points.

Aside from that, physical mail would be handled by Subsidized Merchant/Liner contracts and local interstellar "Postal Unions".

That is exactly where i was going with it. Seems it's the only practical explanation for the system vs a courier system replicating the military.

 

[Whipsnade]

We are given pricing for X-mail. It ain't cheap. Cr10 per 20 kilobits per parsec.

Let me use the Big Mac Rule to put that price in perspective for some of you.

Thanks to LBB:3, we know the yearly cost of average food and lodging living is 4,800Cr.

The monthly cost of food and lodging for a single adult with no children in the US is $271 and $560 respectively for a yearly cost of $9972.

It will cost our average Eneri 10Cr to send 20kb one parsec or 2 tenths of one percent of his yearly food and lodging costs.

Two tenths of one percent of our average Joe's yearly food and lodging costs is $20.78 Anyone bought any twenty dollar stamps lately?

And that's just one parsec too.

Want to send a birthday card to Grammy Hailstone on Mora from your arcology on Rhylanor? That's 13 parsecs, 130Cr, or $270.14.

She better remember you in her will.

 

[aramis]

Let me use the Big Mac Rule to put that price in perspective for some of you.

Thanks to LBB:3, we know the yearly cost of average food and lodging living is 4,800Cr.

The monthly cost of food and lodging for a single adult with no children in the US is $271 and $560 respectively for a yearly cost of $9972.

It will cost our average Eneri 10Cr to send 20kb one parsec or 2 tenths of one percent of his yearly food and lodging costs.

Two tenths of one percent of our average Joe's yearly food and lodging costs is $20.78 Anyone bought any twenty dollar stamps lately?

And that's just one parsec too.

Want to send a birthday card to Grammy Hailstone on Mora from your arcology on Rhylanor? That's 13 parsecs, 130Cr, or $270.14.

She better remember you in her will.

I bought an $14.70 stamp last month. roughly the same percentage of my income as Cr10 would be to the average Impie.... to ship 10kg of books 2000 miles in 3.5 days. Actually, two, plus an almost $19 one for a 4kg box of boxed games. (I'm dreading shipping my whole collection. Cheapest way would be to buy a used 1TEU, fill it, and ship it for about $1500. I can then throw in some other stuff, too... Not this year, tho'.)

Just to put things into comparison, shipping 1 parsec by shared tramp box, if you can wait for the box to fill, is about Cr0.1 per kg, either way per each parsec. The costs of a full mail ton shared would be Cr0.5 per each per kg per parsec. A 100:1 markup is not unreasonable, if the fill rate is ≤50% (which it often is, given RAW.)