Tech Levels - Are They Needed?

[BetterThanLife]

learning how to use it is not an issue. using it is. a culture adapted over ten thousand years to living one way, when suddenly presented overnight not only with the ability to override and bypass every limitation but also to do things it never before conceived, will not respond well.

Except that the people got there somehow and they don't live in isolation. This isn't a question of teaching them something their culture or the people never had. It is taking them back to the stars that they obviously traveled before.

Sure you will have some technophobes, but an irrational fear of technology, especially given the technology required to live on most of these planets, can not be the majority view.

 

[far-trader]

Or maybe it's not techno phobia but a choice to live simpler (like the Amish). And maybe that hell-hole to you and me is comfy for the low tech genadapted population who don't need a fancy environment suit to live on the surface.

Lots of ways to cope with the seeming incongruous nature, dictated as you note by the near totally random generation, of wide ranging tech levels.

And for what it's worth, I include the upper spectrum here too. That TL15 world may not be all gadgets and geegaws (at least not visibly). Could be they too live a very simple life that looks quite primitive, supported by well hidden tech that they all tend to ignore. So they don't export anything because it's not part of their life-style, and they don't import anything because they lack for nothing. They could care less, or may not even know, if there is a TL3 world a parsec away. What's it to them?

 

[flykiller]

an irrational fear of technology

given industry that contaminates entire water supplies, surveillance that can focus in on any individual at any time, weapons that can obliterate entire cities, 60 hour work weeks to afford enforced lifestyles and taxes, and centralized behavior-modifying comm and educational systems, is fear of technology necessarily irrational? is technology even necessarily desireable?

some things just have to be grown into.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Or maybe it's not techno phobia but a choice to live simpler (like the Amish). And maybe that hell-hole to you and me is comfy for the low tech genadapted population who don't need a fancy environment suit to live on the surface.

Lots of ways to cope with the seeming incongruous nature, dictated as you note by the near totally random generation, of wide ranging tech levels.

And for what it's worth, I include the upper spectrum here too. That TL15 world may not be all gadgets and geegaws (at least not visibly). Could be they too live a very simple life that looks quite primitive, supported by well hidden tech that they all tend to ignore. So they don't export anything because it's not part of their life-style, and they don't import anything because they lack for nothing. They could care less, or may not even know, if there is a TL3 world a parsec away. What's it to them?

The issue is that there are only so many excuses, they get old after a while.

 

[aramis]

"... simply ... getting folks to advance"? doesn't happen overnight, especially if they don't see a need for it.

Who could say no to an IPOD or a PDA?

My mother, for one. My grandparents, and several teachers I know.

In fact, quite a large chunk of the population don't want or don't use such items. It's only been recently (last few years) that personal tape players have become hard to find in Anchorage, and audio cassettes onl became scarce about 5 years ago. Video cassettes are still quite prevalent in stores, despite players being rather hard to find.

I find that I don't much use my iPod. (It's actually because I keep misplacing it!)

 

[Spinward Scout]

Riddle-Me-This: can you be on a Trade Route/X-Boat Route and not be above TL9? Trade should average out the TL, whether the rules say so or not. It's not just food and clothing being shipped interstellarly. But if you're off the Trade Routes, that would definitely be different.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Riddle-Me-This: can you be on a Trade Route/X-Boat Route and not be above TL9? Trade should average out the TL, whether the rules say so or not. It's not just food and clothing being shipped interstellarly. But if you're off the Trade Routes, that would definitely be different.

The issue is that, in the OTU, trade routes are not defined. In a couple of places there are some squiggly lines on the maps of the Spinward Marches, but they are not defined as to volume, types of ships, or volume of trade along these routes. GT has some ways to determine trade routes but GT is ATU not OTU and the Trade rules are part of the reason that it can't be OTU because they differ radically from the other versions of Traveller's trade rules.

X-Boat routes is another matter, and they are pretty much the closest routes between Subsector capitals, High Pop worlds and a few other important worlds.

 

[flykiller]

Trade should average out the TL

not necessarily, for two reasons.

1) trade is conducted in commodities, but education, competence, property rights, work habits, desire for independent ability to produce goods, and industrial plants and infrastructure are not often commodities.

2) up-and-coming worlds may find their fledgeling industries are up against well-established manufacturing and trading interests. they might have a hard time breaking out from under this "competition".

The issue is that there are only so many excuses, they get old after a while.

(smile) especially if they're viewed as excuses, not reasons.

 

[BetterThanLife]

(smile) especially if they're viewed as excuses, not reasons.

Semantics.

 

[Icosahedron]

Except that the people got there somehow and they don't live in isolation. This isn't a question of teaching them something their culture or the people never had. It is taking them back to the stars that they obviously traveled before.

Sure you will have some technophobes, but an irrational fear of technology, especially given the technology required to live on most of these planets, can not be the majority view.

This assumes that the 'natives'
a) need the technology to live there (not artificially or naturally acclimatized)
b) were 'brought there' within living memory, or at least within recorded history
c) are not 'repressed' by social, political, cultural, or religious dogma.
d) are not a 'reservation' population
e) are sufficiently humanoid to use our technology

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone out there *will* want the tech.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, I'm going to try not to go over the line with this, but there is a RL example: those places where (for lack of a better term) islamofascism holds sway. In every place I can think of where Islam holds sway in an oppressive manner, they may or may not use hi-TL goods, but they couldn't make them (or repair them, for that matter) to save their lives. (See Icosahedron's point "c".) And, of course, in many places where this holds, they aren't even allowed to use the items.

 

[BetterThanLife]

This assumes that the 'natives'
a) need the technology to live there (not artificially or naturally acclimatized)
b) were 'brought there' within living memory, or at least within recorded history
c) are not 'repressed' by social, political, cultural, or religious dogma.
d) are not a 'reservation' population
e) are sufficiently humanoid to use our technology

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone out there *will* want the tech.

a. Majority of worlds in Traveller require some tech to live there. (Most of the OTU is populated by humans. Mixed Vilani is the most prevalent genetic option in the actually detailed parts of the OTU and is the assumed character race for char gen purposes.)
b. Accounts for 90% of the worlds of the OTU. Virtually all of those worlds, that aren't interdicted, are visited on at least a semi-regular basis by traders.
c. these are the extreme ends of the government table and accounts for, at most, 5 out of 16 government types.
d. Interdicted world, or special circumstance only.
e. What Traveller Universe are you playing in? The vast majority of populations in or close to the Imperium or the Solomani Confederation, in the OTU are Human. Even the wildest genetically modified humans in the OTU can and apparently do interbreed with "pure" Solomani humans.

In the OTU, there are 6 major races, aside for tech that has to account for tails, Vargr, and Aslan can use virtually all human tech without modification. Account for wings and Droyne can as well. K'kree and Hiver are slightly more restricted, but again that restriction is primarily in situations where body shape is the issue.

Of the minor races, Virushi and Ursa, have to worry about size, Bwaap (SP?) have no apparent issues. The humanoids of Alphaaric have no issues, are high tech and don't leave their world much. Ithukaar and Sydites have no issues. Vegans use human tech. To which alien races are you referring?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Well, I'm going to try not to go over the line with this, but there is a RL example: those places where (for lack of a better term) islamofascism holds sway. In every place I can think of where Islam holds sway in an oppressive manner, they may or may not use hi-TL goods, but they couldn't make them (or repair them, for that matter) to save their lives. (See Icosahedron's point "c".) And, of course, in many places where this holds, they aren't even allowed to use the items.

Which accounts for 1 of the 16 government types. It is at an extreme end of the scale and will not account for all governments of that type. In fact both Masada and Grayson, (from David Webber's Honor Harrington series) fall into that government type and neither of those has any issues with using most tech acquired from elsewhere.

 

[atpollard]

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone out there *will* want the tech.

Reality check please.

Every parent living a simple pastoral life in the ecologically harmonious rainforest at TL 1 will eventually be faced with the issue of dealing with a sick or injured child. Would you carry your sick infant to the noisy, polluted starport to visit the TL 9 medical clinic, or just bury her next to her four siblings?

There is nothing like the security of knowing that 20 percent of the village will starve if the crops fail again this year.

Who would be willing to give up a 16 hour work day in a TL 4 industrial city for the possibility of a job at McDonalds at TL 6?

After all in the real world, Africans would never dream of trading their simple life tied so closely to the land for a modern Education and a job in the city. Right? :file_21:

 

[mbrinkhues]

Tech needed/wanted/used:

Just because I can does not mean I do. How many passenger jets are build each year in Sweden (They obviously CAN build advanced jetfighters and do), how many nuclear subs in Germany (We CAN build nuclear ships - See Otto Hahn) Sometimes you don't need the stuff, sometimes it is cheaper to buy it from someone else.

Just because some people travell to the stars does not mean all do. Same with other technologies. Germany 1960 was a high-tech nation again yet large parts of it still had no central heating, running hot water or communal sewers (i.e my father worked in the most advanced coal mine in the world yet had to stoke a coal fired oven for bathing water until the 1970s, we got a sewer access in the late 1980s). OTOH medical services where eccelent even then with access to the latest gear because it was needed

Wether or not most worlds in the OTU need tech to live on is still an option, not a fact. The definition of "Tainted" and it's resulting dangers is rather open and based on TL12+ Imperial Scout Service definitions. Tainted may half your livespan compared to the 3I (still leaving you with 60+ years) and therefor get a "dangerous" from the IIS but be accepted as quite normal by the locals

The final element is money and need. If I do not see a need for a Gravcar, I keep using my ground vehicle. If I don't need a semi-robotic agricultural combine my old manual unit will do. And if I don't have the money for a home automation system I'll have to keep closing the windows by hand. Low tech planets are at a disadvantage because their goods don't sell (unless they are valuabel ores/woods etc) and they lack in money for imports. And the fact that higher tech can produce many consumer goods cheaper further weakens the market. Even more so if you are on a major trade lane where transportation volume makes shiping cheap.

Raising ones TL is interesting up to TL6/7/8 for medical, transport and power generation technologies. And even that can often be imported for cheap, depending on your needs and population figure (Small Pop means IMHO imports)

So the best chances to slowly raise your TL past 6-7 is to be a mineral-rich, resonably remote world with a mid-sized population base.

 

[Icosahedron]

BTL, MTU is non canon and my comments were generic. Sorry, I didn't make that very clear.
However, repression does not necessarily restrict itself to certain government types. There are all sorts of idealogical groups within the good old US of A for example, and a government purporting to be democratic or bureaucratic can be pretty dictatorial when they think they can get away with it. Flying cars and WIG craft are available now, for example, but the (democratic) government won't let the public anywhere near them!

ATP, yes, I'll take my child to the hospital in the starport, (unless I don't believe in the 'magic') but that doesn't mean I'm going to let them build one in my forest or go work there myself.
I'll keep my air clean and import my fertilizers rather than build a factory, thanks.
Just because Earth's TL4 included 16 hr days with little in the way of social welfare, doesn't make it a universal law.
And nobody in the big city would ever drop out of the rat race and take up an idyllic lifestyle on the plains of Africa, right?

 

[aramis]

ATP:

Quite a few traditional farmers in africa skip he education, moving to the city for a job that pays cash, so they can pay the taxes... At least, according to several nigerians I've met.

Likewise, in Alaska, many city-raised natives choose to go live at TL 5 in the village, as it's 14 hour days all week in the summer, but only one or two 10-14 hour days a week in the winter. You work like hell during fish camp, and go on several summer hunts, and a couple of hunts in the winter, but once the snow flies, not much work to do... feed the dogs, move the fuel.

BTL:
Important semantics.

 

[BetterThanLife]

BTL:
Important semantics.

In either event the reasons explanations or excuses wear thin in a hurry considering how often they have to be applied. The more logical explanation that there is actually very little interstellar trade going on makes more sense for the TL spread, and the location of so many high pop worlds in uninhabitable systems. However that makes Piracy, and other aspects of Traveller impractical.

 

[Commander Drax]

I've been a keen Traveller since MT first came out, I've always understood, TL to be determined as a representation of that which is most common amongst the general population, needless to say technology leakage can occur, (around starports or other Imperial facilities etc), or even in the form of a ruling prince of a TL5 world importing a TL12 yacht, along with suitably experienced crews and maintainence staff. You've only got to look at Saudi Arabia to see real worl examples of this, (their entire airforce is maintained, by experienced personnel from the USA, Europe and the UK, as these air craft represent technologies not locally available within the Saudi States). Whilst very rich people exist in these areas with access to the best technologies that the world provides, the vast majority of the citizenry exist at TL's ranging from 2 to 4 depending upon their proximity to urban areas. Thus if Saudi Arabia was a world described in the Traveller universe it have to be classified as a very rich low tech world (TL4)...

 

[flykiller]

After all in the real world, Africans would never dream of trading their simple life tied so closely to the land for a modern Education and a job in the city. Right?

just about everyone will take what is freely available. putting in the effort to pay for it or get it independently, however, is another matter entirely.

further, underlying this is an assumption that low tech == poor and unhappy. this need not be the case.