Navy Ranks in a Small Ship

[Mithras]

I know there are a few Navy guys on the board, I wonder if I could pick their salty brains on the rank structure for smaller ships ...

I understand bigger ships have officers who are often department heads, with junior officers as deputies etc. And that ratings or POs 'push the buttons'.

What about a small ship, crew of 5 or 6 or 10? I understand the captain will probably be a junior officer, Lt.Cdr or even Lieut, but what about the rest of the crew?

Any and all help Naval appreciated, including directions to any websites!

 

[aramis]

Nam era PBR's had coxswains, not skippers... (enlisted, not officer)... the squadrons had Lt's in command.

A Navy boatswain's mate captained the PBR with a crew of three others -- normally a Navy engineman serving as the boat engineer, a gunner's mate serving as both gunner and seaman, and a third crewmember, frequently a Vietnamese interpreter who knew the peculiarities and geography of the river. The boat captain and crew had an enormous responsibility. The PBRs logged up to 70,000 patrol hours in an average month and were involved in about 80 firefights per month.

http://www.marinelink.com/Story/MSC+Moves+Vietnam-era+MK1+PBR+for+Veterans+Group-9077.html

Another lists crewing as BM/1, GM, Engineman(Able or PO), Seaman (Able). A two boat patrol having a separate patrol officer aboard one of the two. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/788764/posts )
ISTR that Patrol officer typically being an Ens, LtJG, ot Lt, in the bios I've read.

(note: PBR's are boats, not ships...)

Here's a link to the PHM-6 memory page, listing 4 officers and 17 crew. http://navysite.de/pboats/phm6.htm

 

[Mithras]

That would certainly transfer well to ship's boats and cutters, maybe even SDBs...

Nam era PBR's had coxswains, not skippers... (enlisted, not officer)... the squadrons had Lt's in command.
http://www.marinelink.com/Story/MSC+Moves+Vietnam-era+MK1+PBR+for+Veterans+Group-9077.html
Another lists crewing as BM/1, GM, Engineman(Able or PO), Seaman (Able). A two boat patrol having a separate patrol officer aboard one of the two. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/788764/posts )
ISTR that Patrol officer typically being an Ens, LtJG, ot Lt, in the bios I've read.

 

[aramis]

What I normally use is the shipdriver being a line officer, the chief engineer and navigator as well, everyone else enlisted, for Type T's. Usually a LtJG or Ens for the Engr and nav, and Lt or LtJG for the CO.

 

[Mithras]

I see, I can use that advice, thanks! Of other ranks, who amongst them would be a PO? That involves specialisation and command doesn't it?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what do we make of Spacehands or POs who are navigators and pilots?? That always made me wonder, particularly when many ship descriptions say the captain and pilot are one and the same ...

 

[jawillroy]

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what do we make of Spacehands or POs who are navigators and pilots?? That always made me wonder, particularly when many ship descriptions say the captain and pilot are one and the same ...

The way I see it IMTU the Captain has to sleep sometimes, and there has to be somebody manning the bridge who can pilot the ship and fill a navigator's chair. On bigger ships, it'll be another officer. On the small ones like a T, you have to be more flexible about rank because you can't be so flexible about skill.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Of course, you can crew your ships' boats like an aircraft, too. Because the person flying it has to have specialized instruction, etc., it will probably be an officer who is on the flight deck and in charge. All the crew in the back would be enlisted (from the engineer on down to the steward) (on up to the steward? :smirk: ).

This from your Air Force/Army/Navy/Marine Corps vet/contractor.

 

[Border Reiver]

Of course, you can crew your ships' boats like an aircraft, too. Because the person flying it has to have specialized instruction, etc., it will probably be an officer who is on the flight deck and in charge. All the crew in the back would be enlisted (from the engineer on down to the steward) (on up to the steward? :smirk: ).

This from your Air Force/Army/Navy/Marine Corps vet/contractor.

Beat me to it. Think of a small vessel like a Type T as being a little like a B-17. A few officers up front and the rest enlisted. The ranks of the officers can be as low as a Subaltern, Ensign, whatever.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

So, assuming that you have a ship with a crew of 10, say a Type T or Gazelle/Firey...

Commanding Officer: Lieutenant (Line branch)
Exectutive Officer: Sublieutenant or Ensign (Cross-Trained in Line or Engineering)
Chief of the Boat: Additional duty given to senior NCO
Engineering: 3 ratings
Gunnery: 4 ratings
Medic: 1 rating

Some of the ratings would be ASH's (Able Spacehands) who are striking toward their rate (that is, their specialty skill [aka Bosun's Mate, Gunner's Mate, etc])

I'm taking this from descriptions of PT Boat crewing levels in the Pacific in WWII.

 

[BlackBat242]

I see, I can use that advice, thanks! Of other ranks, who amongst them would be a PO? That involves specialisation and command doesn't it?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what do we make of Spacehands or POs who are navigators and pilots?? That always made me wonder, particularly when many ship descriptions say the captain and pilot are one and the same ...

First, using US ranks, a "PO" is a Petty Officer"... the Navy way of saying "NCO"... Non-commissioned Officer.

An E-4 (Corporal) is a Petty Officer 3rd, an E-5 (sergeant) a PO-2, an E-6 a PO-1, an E-7 a Chief PO, E-8 = Senior CPO, E-9 = Master CPO.


Second, up to and into WW2 it was common in the USMC, USN, and USAAC/USAAF to have E-4/5/6s taken from the technical branches (usually aircraft mechanics) and trained as pilots and navigators, while retaining their NCO/PO rank.

It was actually interesting to find a Marine Staff Sergeant acting as PIC (Pilot in Command) with a 1Lt (Lt JG) as co-pilot, due to the SSGT having more flight hours in the type.

This was more common in fighters, 1/2-man attack aircraft, and transports... bombers were virtually always commanded/flown by officers.


During the latter stages of WW2, nearly all such enlisted pilots/navigators received commissions as normal officers, and after the war all pilots/navigators had to be commissioned officers before entering training (except for a select few "Warrant Officer" pilots... usually Army helicopter pilots).

Warrant Officers are enlisted selected for promotion to a quasi-officer status... to gain the benefit of their technical expertise in a position of authority & responsibility without having to make them "real officers".



Crew sizes of small ocean-going military vessels:
WW1 Submarine Chasers (85 tons) had 2 officers and 24 enlisted.
The WW1 Eagle class Patrol craft (615 tons) had a crew of 5 officers and 56 enlisted.

So figure 1 officer for each 10-12 enlisted crew.

 

[aramis]

Actually, since DoD recently changed some terms, E4's are not NCO's... period (This was noted on a DoD web-page, along with the deletion of the USAF E4 Sgt). So, PO3's are not NCO's, but are petty officers... A buddy of mine on the USCG Chief's list also noted the change...

In general, however, most Able Spacehands will have already either struck for a rating or will have been schooled in it; many apprentices will have as well. (USN has been doing this since Korea, and putting rating marks above able and apprentice stripes since before 1979, when my copy of the Bluejacket's manual was printed...)

So your able engineeringman is at least Engineer 0, if not 1. Your able gunner is at least gunner 0.

Also, in re Warrants: Traveller has no "US-Type Warrants"... in the board games, they are "UK-Type Warrants", which are the Chief Petty Officers and Sgt's Major (equal to US E7-E9). Only the US and Russian models have Warrants like the US, the russian title being Praporshik. Given that the current edition is being done in the UK, be well aware of the term and that for the UK, a warrant officer is a senior NCO, not a limited duty officer.

Keep in mind the puddle results in some different understanding of terms.

 

[Vargas]

This was more common in fighters, 1/2-man attack aircraft

Which half did they use?

Warrant Officers are enlisted selected for promotion to a quasi-officer status... to gain the benefit of their technical expertise in a position of authority & responsibility without having to make them "real officers".

Yup, with the distinction being that they derive their authority from a warrant and not a commission.

 

[veltyen]

Which half did they use?

The important half

As a side hobby I've been trying to model the RAN. One of its vessels is approximately the size you are looking at, the Armidale Class Patrol Boat. Being a recent design it has a fair bit of information on the web.

In role and size it is a somewhat close match to a Type T.

The Armidale class has 29 berths for 7 officers, 4 NCO's, and 18 sailors, and another 20 "austere" berths.

In operation they have a complement of 21 with the captain being a Lieutenant Commander.

 

[Mithras]

Great info guys I never realised there would be so few officers to so many men. I guess that's the misconception generated by knowing too much about Star Trek and not enough about RL naval organization

I've certainly got it wrong on my IN freighter, with a commander, two lieutenants, two Petty officers and two spacehands!

One source of confusion for me was Book 1, where ratings could be navigators and pilots, much like the modern navy I suppose. But Book 5 looks like only Flight branch personnel get to fly and navigate - I think they are all commissioned officers, which certainly fits with the air force model mentioned on page 1 (of this thread). The Traveller navy does seem to be a bit of a mis-match between those two services.

I'll be reading up on the websites cited, particularly about US naval striking ranks, which I briefly came across on Wikipedia, and on warrant officers which I could never get my head around.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

One source of confusion for me was Book 1, where ratings could be navigators and pilots, much like the modern navy I suppose. But Book 5 looks like only Flight branch personnel get to fly and navigate - I think they are all commissioned officers, which certainly fits with the air force model mentioned on page 1 (of this thread). The Traveller navy does seem to be a bit of a mis-match between those two services.

Yeah, High Guard generation tends to favor officers. After all, EVERYBODY wants to be a 4-term Fleet Admiral, right? IRL, it has always struck alot of us as odd that for some reason you have to be an officer to fly, but they let a Staff Sargeant command a tank with three additional troops in it...

I'll be reading up on the websites cited, particularly about US naval striking ranks, which I briefly came across on Wikipedia, and on warrant officers which I could never get my head around.

Warrant Officers are essentially highly skilled technicians. They might be a long-service NCOs specializing in a very complicated skill (like Personnel or Ordinance) or a younger person operating a complicated piece of equipment (like a helicopter). They occupy a place between senior NCO's (Senior Chief Petty Officers or Sargeants Major) and Commissioned Officers. They wear officer style uniforms, are entitled to a salute, and are addressed as Mr./Ms. (though never Miss or Mrs.). But there are distinct legal differences in what a Warrant Officer can and cannot do and the expections placed on them.

Mind you, my experience is in the US Army and the Navy (any Navy) has different traditions, but I think I've generalized it enough for gaming purposes. And you could always just ignore the Warrant issue altogether. The Traveller rules certainly have.

 

[Mithras]

So, warrant officers have great responsibility for a technical area and the men working on it, while officers have great responsibility for organising and administrating groups of men assigned to a place or task? Sort of my understanding.

I've just come away from this website:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ny330bg/crews457.htm

Its a fantastic site on B-29 crews and planes that served over Japan. It makes a great comparison for an Imperial gunboat. On a typical plane there would be:

aircraft cdr - 1st L, Cap (often) or Major
(co?) pilot - 2ndL (often) or 1stL
navigator - 1stL or 2ndL
bomb aimer - 2nd L, 1st L even Captain
radar operator - 2ndL
flight engineer - 1stL or master serg (common)
radio operator - staff serg
central fire control gunner - staff serg+
3 other gunners - corporal up to staff serg

This jives with what was said earlier, about officers 'up-front' with enlisted 'in the back'.

I wonder where a medic, loadmaster and steward would figure in there... time for more digging I think.

 

[atpollard]

I wonder where a medic, loadmaster and steward would figure in there... time for more digging I think.

With the Engineer split between the Officer and Enlisted groupings, it might seem logical to assume that Traveller positions that pay MORE than an Engineer are officers and Traveller Positions that pay LESS than an Engineer are not.

 

[Mithras]

Probably as simple as that when it comes down to it....

With the Engineer split between the Officer and Enlisted groupings, it might seem logical to assume that Traveller positions that pay MORE than an Engineer are officers and Traveller Positions that pay LESS than an Engineer are not.

 

[far-trader]

With the Engineer split between the Officer and Enlisted groupings, it might seem logical to assume that Traveller positions that pay MORE than an Engineer are officers and Traveller Positions that pay LESS than an Engineer are not.

Close to the way I figure it. For what it's worth my breakdown is generally:

Pilot/Captain - Officer (rank varies with ship/crew size)

Navigator/XO - Officer (rank varies, one less than Pilot/Captain typically)

Medics - Officer (rank varies, equal or one less than Navigator/XO)*

Aides - Officer (rank varies, one less than Medic, typically provisional Ensigns at the least)

Engineers - Enlisted (rank varies, multiple engineers have a Chief/NCO)

Stewards - Enlisted (rank varies, multiple stewards have a Chief/NCO)

Gunners - Enlisted (rank varies, multiple gunners have a Chief/NCO)

Small Craft - Mixed - Fighter Pilots are Officers, Non-combat Pilots are Chief/NCO, others (mechanics, gunners, etc.) are Enlisted.

* I always figured the pay scale was botched and the Medic should make more than the Steward at least, I'd probably go as far as to say it should be the Medic making Cr4000, the Engineer making Cr3000, and the Steward making Cr2000)

 

[Mithras]

Thanks Far Trader, neatly summarising the thread for me in one post... I get the feeling that a chief engineer is an officer though, and its not just Star Trek that gives me this vibe, but the fact that on airacrft the flight engineer is (was - redundant now with computerized systems) an interal part of the officered flight-crew.