Navy Ranks in a Small Ship

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

I've found that instead of using the Air Force manning system, that the Navy works better in a Traveller sense. The AF's tend to be officer-heavy at the 'sharp end of the stick' while the Naval system provides a more realistic sense of spaceborne power projection. I'd encourage you to look at the Destroyer-and-smaller naval ship manning tables from WWII. For example, during the Battle of Leyte Gulf in the Phillipines a flotilla of destroyer escorts (that is, too-small-to-be-a-destroyer) fought an action that saved the beachhead against a VASTLY superior Imp. Japanese Navy force. That flotilla (radio callsign Taffy-3) was commanded by a mere Commander. This is why I quoted a PT Boat (or a MTB in British parlance) as a good manning table for your Type T patrol 'cruiser'.

Naval units depend on their Chiefs to get the technical aspects of the job done AND to provide leadership, training, and a role-model to swabbies in the preassure-cooker environment of a ship at sea, whereas in an Air Force environment senior NCOs are really just highly skilled wrench-turners. Now before any of you zoomies out there get ticked off at an old tread-head, I am talking about combat leadership. Since the AF's combat units are officer-heavy, they don't expect a Technical Sargeant to be a platoon sargeant, whereas the Navy DOES expect a Chief to keep his men fighting a fire aboard even while the ship is taking hits.

Also consider that, like the US Navy and Marines, the RAF's Bomber Command often used Sargeants (or petty officers) as navigators and and Fighter Command used sargeants as fighter pilots thoughout the WWII.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Thanks Far Trader, neatly summarising the thread for me in one post... I get the feeling that a chief engineer is an officer though, and its not just Star Trek that gives me this vibe, but the fact that on airacrft the flight engineer is (was - redundant now with computerized systems) an interal part of the officered flight-crew.

Aboard a ship with a jump-drive, I'd expect one of the officers to able to supervise the ratings and advise the ship captain about Engineering matters. Aboard boats (which seems to be any space vessel under 200 tons that lacks a jump drive, anything bigger becoming a Monitor or Battle Rider), a PO2 could be the flight engineer. His supervisor back at squadron would certainly be an officer, but the name stencilled on the hull will be MMM/2 E. Killuurgi, Flight Engineer (or Crew Chief).

In the US Navy, all officers serving on submarines are expected to be professionally conversant with the reactor that drives the boat. They are then trained in Weapons or Communications, or Sonar or whatever.

My mental version of the IN has always had the Destroyer/Submarine model for the small-ship side of things, as they offer the best modern day equivilents. Now, when we get to talking big-ship operations, then we start dealing with Admirals with aides de camp, spinal mounts that can kill entire cities, and real 'as-far-as-you're-concerned-I-AM-the Emperor, Governor' power projection. But that's a whole 'nother thing...

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

What I normally use is the shipdriver being a line officer, the chief engineer and navigator as well, everyone else enlisted, for Type T's. Usually a LtJG or Ens for the Engr and nav, and Lt or LtJG for the CO.

Hi,

On some ships it may be possible that the guy in charge of engineering may not be an officer. Specifically, I seem to recall that during WWII on small ships like a Flower Class corvette, the guy in charge of engineering wasn't necessarily an officer but rather something called a Cheif Engine Room Artificer, or something like that, which I believe was a Sr Enlisted type rank (like a CPO or similar).

I tried searching the internet, and the best info I could find was this link which seems to indicate that the guy they call a cheif engineer was not an officer, but rather a senior rating, lumping him in with the Cox'n, Chief Bos'ns Mate, and the Gunlayer.

Anyway, its just some additional info that I thought might be of interest.

Regards

PF

 

[aramis]

The UK in WWI and WWII was much more liberal than the US

Keep in mind, both parallely developed the same system of ranks from a shared earlier 3 grouping system, with Officers holding a Commission from the Gov't, Warrants (Bosun, Gunner, Sailing Master, Surgeon, Cook) issued by the Captain or Admiral, and ratings, advanced by the captain based upon reports from the Lieutenants and Warrants. Both evolved to the same Officers and Ratings model that the US started moving away from in WW II... by reintroducing warrants.

In the UK, the warranting was extended down to CPO's, and then the Lieutenant-Equivalent warrants were done away with.
In the US, the warrant was simply done away with (in, IIRC, 1908),and then reintroduced mid war to allow replacing lost junior officers faster by grabbing petty officers and giving them officer authority (and uniform), but not officer rank.

There were, however, VAST differences in the utilization of these blokes. The USN generally considered those below CPO as non-leaders, and Chiefs as leaders. The UK considered its petty officers to be the right men to deal with crew, and considered them leaders.

In the US, most departments had an officer (Deck, Engineering, Gunnery, Stores). In the UK, very few specialist officers existed, and Chief Petty Officers would serve in those roles.

Incompatible models, despite the same titles and similar insignia.

 

[rancke]

I've been working on an adventure where the PCs are the officers of a Dyaus-class Patrol Cruiser (The GTL12 version of the Type T). I've made a few changes which increased the crew to a total of 21. Here's the crew list I came up with:

Crew list:

#  Position (function)       Rank                Department    S     D     B

01 Captain (astrogator)      Lieutenant (O3)     Bridge       15    26    26
02 XO (astrogator)           Sublieutenant (O2)  Bridge       19    26     5
03 2nd Officer (gig astrgtr) Sublieutenant (O2)  Bridge       19    26   Gig
04 Chief Helmsman (pilot)    CPO                 Bridge       21    26     5
05 2nd Helmsman (gig pilot)  PO                  Bridge        8    26   Gig
06 sensor operator           Rating              Bridge        9    26     5
07 communication operator    Rating              Bridge        9    26    26
08 Chief Engineer            Sublieutenant (O2)  Engineering  23     2     2
09 Engine hand               Rating              Engineering  10     2     2
10 Bosun                     CPO                 Maintenance  21     -     -
11 Med tech                  PO                  Medical      14    16    16
12 Nurse                     Rating              Medical      14    16    16
13 First Gunner              PO                  Gunnery       8     -     7
14 Gunner                    Rating              Gunnery      10     -     7
15 Deckhand                  Rating              Maintenance  12     -     -
16 Deckhand                  Rating              Maintenance  12     -     -
17 Marine Officer            2nd Lieutenant (O2) Marines      23    30    30
18 Marine Sergeant           Sergeant            Marines      11    30    30
19 Marine                    Private             Marines      11    30    30
20 Marine                    Private             Marines      13    30    31
21 Marine                    Private             Marines      13    30    31

S = Stateroom; D = Duty Station; B = Battle Station

A dash indicates that the crewmember is employed in general maintenance ATSR
(As The Service Requires) with varying duty station according to need.

Note: The numbers refer to a set of deck plans that I worked out. They differ considerably from the GTL10 version in Starships.


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

I have no personal knowledge of the armed forces, but I'd question the inclusion of a Marine Officer. Since you have what amounts to a single fire team, a sergeant or even a corporal should be sufficient to command them.

IMTU I'd probably combine Gunnery and Marines as Defence (on the basis that they are both shipboard defence systems) and have them supervised by the first gunner. Maybe I'd lose those Deckhands, too, and put brushes in the hands of the Marines, otherwise, most of the time they'll be sitting polishing their buttons - and that ain't good for discipline.

 

[rancke]

I have no personal knowledge of the armed forces, but I'd question the inclusion of a Marine Officer. Since you have what amounts to a single fire team, a sergeant or even a corporal should be sufficient to command them.

You're quite right that an NCO would be sufficient. But there may be reasons why the Imperium prefers a minimum of one marine officer per star system, and since patrol cruisers occasionally operate on their own, they all get a marine officer.

Or maybe there's one officer per squadron (8 patrol cruisers) and the officer for this squadron just happens to be stationed on the Gosha. Though admittedly this explanation doesn't quite fit with the background for the adventure I'm working on, since the captain of the Gosha is not its squadron's senior captain.

The real reason is, of course, that I want all the PCs to be officers.

IMTU I'd probably combine Gunnery and Marines as Defense (on the basis that they are both shipboard defense systems) and have them supervised by the first gunner. Maybe I'd lose those Deckhands, too, and put brushes in the hands of the Marines, otherwise, most of the time they'll be sitting polishing their buttons - and that ain't good for discipline.

There are only two gunners because the marines man two of the turrets. This bit (marines performing various shipboard functions) is canonical, IIRC. As for polishing buttons, the marines assemble in their own spot, but they're employed in shipboard maintenance if required.


Hans

 

[aramis]

With not even a squad of marines, the Marine Lt makes little sense.
I'd have a Sgt, a Cpl, and 3 marines, and when an officer was needed, pull him from elsewhere.

Oh, and the Gig Astrogator should probably be an ensign; making it the junior man.

 

[Pagan priest]

It might be that the reason to have an officer leading the Marines has more to do with law enforcement/politics than with efficient TO&Es. Perhaps an NCO can only hold suspects until an officer formally makes the arrest, or they might have to deal with a yacht full of nobles. That's assuming that your marines are used for customs inspections.

If this marine force actually needs an officer leading it, there would not likely be any NCOs as well. Even if the leader was only an NCO, there would only be one.

Hmmm, if the marine party were actually an elite special forces type unit, that might explain the need for an officer and an NCO...

 

[atpollard]

The real reason is, of course, that I want all the PCs to be officers.

Unless this specific ship is THE ship to serve on and every member of the crew is related to a noble or an admiral who pulled strings to get them in. A chance for your young nephew to rub shoulders with afuture Duke and Barron. Social A+ and a Commission could be part of the minimum requirements to serve.

Of course the crew would need to be 50% Officers and 50% enlisted. You don't expect them to function without servants do you?

 

[aramis]

One possibility for an "officer heavy crew" is a Cadet Ship. Half the crew are officers of standing commission; the rest are midshipsmen or Officer Candidates. Pull a six-month cruise after either Academy or OCS.

The other is the "Noble Gentlemen's Duty"... Everyone abord is an officer or a nobleman, but they may, if they can afford it, have a personal non-military batman, who must share quarters with the officer in question. But every man assigned aboard is an officer, and most are nobles. In general, the officers are assigned aboard because they have issues with "common men" and are thus put outside the norm. (Modeled after certain historical regiments, then exaggerated.)

 

[aramis]

One possibility for an "officer heavy crew" is a Cadet Ship. Half the crew are officers of standing commission; the rest are midshipsmen or Officer Candidates. Pull a six-month cruise after either Academy or OCS.

The other is the "Noble Gentlemen's Duty"... Everyone abord is an officer or a nobleman, but they may, if they can afford it, have a personal non-military batman, who must share quarters with the officer in question. But every man assigned aboard is an officer, and most are nobles. In general, the officers are assigned aboard because they have issues with "common men" and are thus put outside the norm. (Modeled after certain historical regiments, then exaggerated.)

 

[rancke]

With not even a squad of marines, the Marine Lt makes little sense.
I'd have a Sgt, a Cpl, and 3 marines, and when an officer was needed, pull him from elsewhere.

For a whole squadron that amounts to 40 marines, quite enough to warrant a 2Lt. Here's how I think I'll work it: The Gosha's squadron is stationed away from Fleet HQ and the ships rotate back there for annual maintenance. The Gosha has just finished its maintenance and is about to jump back to the squadron. The marine officer is hitching a ride, so I'll make him a supernumerary and take your advice about the marine ranks.

(The adventure starts with the Fleet Admiral cutting new (and secret) orders for the ship).

Oh, and the Gig Astrogator should probably be an ensign; making it the junior man.

I think of ensigns as officers in training. As I see it, they'll always be employed on ships with plenty of more senior officers to educate them. A Type T doesn't have a big enough crew for that. But perhaps I should reconsider.


Hans

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Take a look at Dave Drake's 'Lt. Leary, RCN' series for the incusion of a valet cum bodyguard for the younger noble son if that's your thing.

IMTU, the children of the nobility encouraged to join the Imperial Armed Services as a expected step into responsible (title holding) adulthood. Very few heirs ever rise to the parent's title if they cannot handle the simpler duties of a Watch Officer aboard one of His Imperial Majesties ships or as Platoon Commander of troops. Further, the Emperor and his peers expect a young noble to not only do well, but excell at these duties as an example to his 'lessers'.

Ideally this is done without a batman or valet, though as one's responsabilities increase some officers are assigned an orderly or steward whose extra duties are paid for by the officer. By this I mean that if young Captain the Honorable Lord Bertie chooses to pay a rifleman in his company to attend to his quarters and uniforms, it is in addition to that rifleman's duty as a combat infantryman. Space could likely be found for that orderly on the TOE as a company runner, but putting a civilian with little or no (or even outdated) military training in the line of fire for the sake of personal luxury would be VERY poor form and might even be prosecuted if that civilian (however willing to do the job) is hurt or killed.

I'm not British, but I can't imagine that Lt. Harold 'Bullet-Magnet' Winsor, Duke of Cornwall (I think) had some clueless Home Office type hovering about whilst on his recent jaunt into the wilds of Afghan Kush. Or for that matter, did his uncle, Prince Andrew, have someone waiting with his tea after a hard day of bobbing for Exocets in the South Atlantic during the Falklands? And by the by, Prince Harry came by the 'Bullet-Magnet' moniker the old fashioned way... the officers and troops of the Blues and Royals laid it on him.

Now some of you might say, 'Cap'n Ganii, they'd put one of their best special operations types on the job!". To this I can only reply that as a former Special Forces soldier, I don't think that anybody joins the Imperial Marine Commandoes just to fetch Lord Bertie his slippers like well-trained bloodvarg. Commandoes have much more important things to do than babysit the children of the nobility while they grow up.

 

[veltyen]

I'm not British, but I can't imagine that Lt. William 'Bullet-Magnet' Winsor, Duke of Cornwall (I think) had some clueless Home Office type hovering about whilst on his recent jaunt into the wilds of Afghan Kush? Or for that matter, did Prince William's uncle, Prince Andrew, have someone waiting with his tea after a hard day of bobbing for Exocets in the South Atlantic during the Falklands? And by the by, Prince William came by the 'Bullet-Magnet' moniker the old fashioned way... the officers and troops of the Blues and Royals laid it on him.

There is an element of self-proof that is required. I could not see any of the Mountbatten-Windsor clan having personal assistance in the field, if anything they would be trying to rough it more then the next man.

On the other hand American royalty tend to find sinecures or use money to avoid serving in the line of fire.

Different cultures lead to different outcomes I guess.

It was Harry in Afghanistan BTW.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

It was Harry in Afghanistan BTW.

Ouch. See, that's what I get for getting on my high horse... :rofl: One of these days I'll learn to quit replying to this board at 3 am.

But you're right about the privileged getting their free pass, one way or another. Insofar as American royalty goes, I will have to admit that I am impressed that one of John McCain's sons, LCpl Jim McCain USMC, is serving in Iraq and that Jack has graduated from the Naval Acadamy. Neither son's service is being used as a talking point in the campaign for President thus far, and it will speak very well of the man if it stays that way. While I have never been a Kennedy fan, the family's WWII service was noteworthy and honorable, as was the Roosevelt's.

During my time in the US military, we had what we called a 'flag' on your personnel file. Some are positive (such as an officer on the 5% promotion list), some are negative (such as being under investigation for an incident), and some are quite neutral. One of these neutral flags is the 'political interest' flag. This could be that you're related to a Congressman, or you're dad is a big party contributor or noted industrialist. I knew one guy in the Army who had one of these flags in his file because his mother wrote his Congressman who then used the guy's name in a speech on the House floor. After that, he was treated differently. He had to do twice the work for half the recognition, and he never had a positive action (like promotion) that couldn't be explained by regulation. By and large he described it as being a catastrophic pain in the butt...

 

[atpollard]

I knew one guy in the Army who had one of these flags in his file because his mother wrote his Congressman who then used the guy's name in a speech on the House floor. After that, he was treated differently. He had to do twice the work for half the recognition, and he never had a positive action (like promotion) that couldn't be explained by regulation. By and large he described it as being a catastrophic pain in the butt...

He should have written to his mom. :rofl:

 

[aramis]

I was informed by my DI's that I was double flagged... had to invoke a Congressman to get in, and Dad was a LTC.

Yeah, it sucks. Makes them all the more ready to find excuses to make your life miserable. Like being sent to KP on an extra rotation, and the Mess Chief (Retired Spec-9) having been told I was to be on Pots. Too bad for my DI's I enjoyed Pots...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

There is an element of self-proof that is required. I could not see any of the Mountbatten-Windsor clan having personal assistance in the field, if anything they would be trying to rough it more then the next man.

Harry certainly seemed to enjoy it - it was the first time he'd been treated like a normal person.

William, BTW, is currently hunting drug smugglers in the Caribbean aboard HMS Iron Duke.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Still and all, I think we're all on the point of it. Officer-only ships exist firmly in the mind of Gene Roddenberry (etc.). I just have a hard time with the idea that Sblt. Studley Vicount Hungwell, IN, might find himself scrubbing freshers or replacing ducting aboard Type T. You simply don't train somebody for that long and at that expense just to have them chip paint with the deck weenies.