• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

The gap between NASA and Traveller

So far as I know (and I don't know much), NASA's plans for the foreseeable future are:

1) send more kewt little wobots to Mars to find some puddle with microbes in it;

2) send people to the Moon (again);

3) do more stuff on that space station thing;

4) send people to Mars.

Are there any plans to do something more, well, ambitious? :devil:

Because all that microbe collecting feels a bit like PR to me, and even the moon mission feels a bit redundant--as though NASA think that if they don't send a wobot to Mars/launch people into space once a year the public will stop caring (and funding them).

This may well be true, but...

Are there plans to send a probe to another star system? A probe powered by some awesome sublight engine, and steered by a kewt but supersmart wobot?

Is there a NASA statement of long-term purpose out there? Is there a group of NASA scientists who are doing nothing but planning for that long term?
 
You do realize anything we do in the realm of extra-solar vehicles will take millennia right :)

Humans just don't think on that order of time. Until someone cracks ftl or at least builds a steady long duration acceleration engine (like maybe the oh so scary we can't use that nuclear pulse engines) we won't be throwing anything at another solar system except by accident and without any expectation of any results. Like Voyager.
 
IF we keep to the free market style of inspiring people to do things versus NASA then I think you will find some of your projects happening.

When Militiary spending was funding NASA besides the little bit that they got directly from the government, they were able to do much.

Now, well, I suggest you look at some of the Xprojects where if you are the first to accomplish the goal you get millions of dollars.

Dave Chase
 
That's the thing... humans in general are imaginative... but presidents with tight budgets on a four-year term or two can't afford to be.

But *somebody* at NASA must be thinking about the long haul?

Voyager was exactly what I was thinking--it just needs to be rather faster, and able to return. Would it really take millennia, rather a century or three, to develop an engine for that?

How long would be the trip to Alpha Centauri at sub-light anyway?
 
Folks remember that it was not NASA that sent people to Bernard's it was under the rubric of United States military mission who then reported to the UN. Because, the UN was the biggest space player by the early 2020s. With the deepening of this current Depression, that might jolt the United States to do more in space by internationalizing the effort. Obama has already talked about the re-engagement and reinventing of multilateral institutions. Space travel has long been a worthy endeavor for all of mankind to start this process. This together with the creation of a World Parliament that I was reading about the other day on Wikipedia could well mean Art setting the precedence for Real Life.

Canon always has assumed that Earth is going to through quite a number of major crises before coming out with a jump drive...so we might shorten the time by fighting for the things that unite mankind rather divide us. I think it was Buzz Aldrin who said the history of the 20th century was a dialogue between the image of the mushroom cloud and the whole Earth as seen from the moon. The task in the 21st is to realize the winners are the one's who stand for the whole Earth and make it happen. The rest of this arguement could be taken up in the pit...but quite frankly, I find I don't have the time to waste there. I would rather be playing Traveller.
 
So far as I know (and I don't know much), NASA's plans for the foreseeable future are:

1) send more kewt little wobots to Mars to find some puddle with microbes in it;

2) send people to the Moon (again);

3) do more stuff on that space station thing;

4) send people to Mars.

Are there any plans to do something more, well, ambitious? :devil:
Not really, sadly.

At present there ain't no place to go, nor any way to get there. The moon is an airless rock, Venus makes Hell look frigid, Mars makes the Sahara look like an oasis, and Antartica look tropical. Any place we go, with present technology, is going to take too long, and cost too much. Besides, it is a bureaucracy, accountable for the tax dollars they spend. They can't take the risk of something failing spectacularly, wasting too much money, time, effort and lives. They would lose their jobs.

Interstellar missions would take far too long for the public to care, and besides, even if you were to go to Alpha Centauri, there is no guarentee that there is anything there of interest to the general populace i.e. taxpayers footing the bill. Especially when those funds and resources can be devoted to more immediate concerns. And even if there is, who cares? It is too far away, and takes too long to get there for it to be of any value to those same taxpayers.

The cold war is over, the Soviets don't exist anymore, and we beat them to the moon. China and India, while they have some ambitious plans, also have much larger populations of taxpayers, and can ill afford such vanity projects. They have more pressing concerns as well. With the global economy the way it is today, I don't see it changing much in the future.

Besides, with the constant assault on the rich, and class warfare, it makes it very difficult for any organization, besides a government, to accumulate sufficient capital to invest in such projects with so low a perceived return on that investment and such a high risk. If that ain't enough, any interstellar manned missions, even at near light speed, would mean their crews would essentially return to a very alien enviroment and cultures. Those crews could never come home, because home would change so much while they were gone, they would not recognize it.

I wish none of this were true, but it is the way it is right now, and there is nothing on the horizon that I know of that is going to change this, at least in my life time. Nobody wishes I was wrong more than me, but there it is.

What is needed is something like Jump Drive, (or warp drive, like Alcubierra's) that would make FTL travel affordable. That would require some kind of very smart scientist backed by a very wealthy patron who has discretion and desire to "waste" his money on such a project. Thanks to what we have done so far, the rest of the space craft should be pretty easy to design. But without a propulsion system, it is just a very expensive and possibly cramped building, stuck on this bloody rock like the rest of us.

Sorry for being so depressing
 
Folks remember that it was not NASA that sent people to Bernard's it was under the rubric of United States military mission who then reported to the UN. Because, the UN was the biggest space player by the early 2020s. With the deepening of this current Depression, that might jolt the United States to do more in space by internationalizing the effort. Obama has already talked about the re-engagement and reinventing of multilateral institutions. Space travel has long been a worthy endeavor for all of mankind to start this process. This together with the creation of a World Parliament that I was reading about the other day on Wikipedia could well mean Art setting the precedence for Real Life.
Why would the UN be better than any national government? Granted a world government would have a larger tax base, but with that comes more demands on those tax dollars. There are going to be plenty of folks who have, will, and are saying that those funds could be better spent to take care of problems here on earth, to feed the poor, clean the environment, built better roads, bridges, whatever for those taxpayers. Nobody wants to give their money up for nothing, and taxpayers who perceive their money wasted get upset about that. And politicians at all levels want to hold onto their jobs, or at least not put up against a wall and shot.

While folks like you or I, if we had the cash, might invest in such an R&D project, I don't see how you are going to get even a plurality of politicians to go for it, short of some earth threatening catastrophy. The key component in all this is the drive system. We have very few ideas on how to make one, no funds to research those few we have thought of already, no idea how much it would cost in money, time and effort to develope and little desire amongst the general populace to take such an enormous risk for such low personal reward.

Again, sorry for being so depressing. These are the challenges we face, and why we have not had a real space program since Apollo. If you can think of a solution to these, you have made the first step to accomplishing the goal.
 
Once big money decides that there are things in outerspace (nonEarth) that they need or want then we will be going beyond the moon.


Dave Chase
 
Voyager was exactly what I was thinking--it just needs to be rather faster, and able to return. Would it really take millennia, rather a century or three, to develop an engine for that?

How long would be the trip to Alpha Centauri at sub-light anyway?

No, with any engine we can built right now, it is the trip that will take millennia!

Well, here is the current speed of the Voyager probes:
http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/weekly-reports/index.htm
RANGE, VELOCITY AND ROUND TRIP LIGHT TIME AS OF 10/3/2008

Velocity Relative to Sun (Km/sec); (Mi/hr)

Voyager 1: 17.098; 38,246

Voyager 2: 15.527; 34,732


Since the speed of light is 299,792.458 Km/sec (≈ 671,000,000 Mi/hr), this means the faster of the two, Voyager 1, is traveling at .0000570 times the speed of light.

Since the distance to Alpha Centauri is 4.3 light-years, Voyager 1, at its present velocity, could make a one-way trip in 75,440.5 years!

Yes, space IS a big place!!
 
Last edited:
All you need to do* is rewrite the Constitution, to the effect that from 2009 to perpetuity, one billion US$ annually shall be be earmarked for foundational R&D of interstellar flight. In a hundred years that should have gotten us *somewhere*.

I mean, the Defense dept.'s *base* budget for 2008 is almost 500 times that.

*Yeah right.
 
The BIG prize.

Sending a ship to the asteroid belt and returning an asteroid would be a stretch goal for someone with the right connections, knowledge and ability to raise funds.

I have always believed that if asteroids are anything near the composition that is theorized anyone who accomplished that task would set a new standard for wealth.

The resulting rush to repeat the trip, combined with enough material, manufacturing capability and interest would lead to a rapid migration into space, at least a large enough group to jump start all that you have discussed.

At the moment, a pipe dream, but soon enough, that is our likely boost into space.

By the way, if the report I though I heard was real, the moon was discovered to have ice trapped in it's soil. Water on Mars makes it colonization, if the moon also can create water, with the soil already proven to be useable tas a base to grow plants, someone will be colonizing the moon is relatively short order.

The moment there are more than a handful of humans in space, engine technology will expand rapidly. Everyone will want to get from point a to point b, either faster, cheaper or both.

Also once manufacturing in low gravity becomes a reality, at lot of these long term projects become viable. The real expese of space is boosting material from the ground. Both in terms of fuel and in terms of building delicate craft that must survive gravity while under construction and the stresses of launch.

In short, once the first commercial venture is under way, the exodus begins, and with it, missions to other planets, and work toward near c travel to other systems.

There are also experimental results that given the time and money suggest FTL is practical, and not super far from our current technological reach.

Just my thoughts. Just like all advances, spaceflight will be innovated by entrepreneurs, followed by larger corporations, with occasional leaps necessitated by the inevitable armed conflicts.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 
History Repeats Itself

One of the great migrations of recent history was fuled by the 'gold rush'. Once fusion power becomes more nessassary and practical, we'll need Helium-3.

Helium-3 is somewhat rare on Earth due to our magnetic shielding. But the Moon is littered with it.

When Helium-3 becomes the new 'gold', we'll see another gold rush.

Hopefully with salloons.
 
Sending a ship to the asteroid belt and returning an asteroid would be a stretch goal for someone with the right connections, knowledge and ability to raise funds.

I have always believed that if asteroids are anything near the composition that is theorized anyone who accomplished that task would set a new standard for wealth.
That wealth would be in the form of metals and minerals. What would the world economy do with all those metals? I remember when NASA did the mission to Eris, there was an estimate that there was something like 14 trillion dollars worth of gold alone. But of course if there were that much gold, gold prices would collapse.

Gold has just two uses, electronics and jewelry. It's pretty, shiny, doesn't rust. But it is too soft to use as anything more than decoration. It can't be used structurally, and won't hold an edge. But then, its rarity limited any kind of research into new uses.
By the way, if the report I though I heard was real, the moon was discovered to have ice trapped in it's soil. Water on Mars makes it colonization, if the moon also can create water, with the soil already proven to be useable tas a base to grow plants, someone will be colonizing the moon is relatively short order.
Both are still harsh environments that is going to require a lot of work to simply construct livable spaces. The amount of effort and resources to construct viable environments will limit population growth.
The moment there are more than a handful of humans in space, engine technology will expand rapidly. Everyone will want to get from point a to point b, either faster, cheaper or both.
Good point. That first step is a big one though.
There are also experimental results that given the time and money suggest FTL is practical, and not super far from our current technological reach.
Would you elaborate on this a bit more? It sounds interesting.
Just my thoughts. Just like all advances, spaceflight will be innovated by entrepreneurs, followed by larger corporations, with occasional leaps necessitated by the inevitable armed conflicts.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
I don't think there is any other way, or group that will accomplish this. It will be the Paul Allens, Richard Bransons and Burton Rutans that will do it. Folks like that.
 
The Moon is a long term plan. It has to survive 3 more presidential terms and six more Congressional terms, according to the present schedule. If I said we're even money to have the initiative to actually complete the mission I'd be being optimistic. I'm sure we'll get Orion to the ISS, I'm not sure we can get back to the Moon.

You gotta walk before you can run, and with present technology (including our technology for organizing ourselves) getting to the Moon is a Big Thing. The technology and methods we used the first time are gone. Our ability to put things together to make it happen is worse, that's why it's taking us longer. We have weaker leadership, less ability to organize ourselves on the basis of ability rather than social directive, and the skills base is pretty strong but inexperienced in the development of new manned vehicles, so we're having to go stepwise.

Sending working robots to Mars is still a huge accomplishment. Mars missions I've contributed to are getting a batting average of success better than .500 now, finally. Sending people there is beyond our present ability. It'd take a long time, 20 years minimum, or a national/international push far larger than Apollo to get us there sooner and have some hope of success. When I even start to think of all the problems we have to solve for that my head spins.

Asteroids are interesting, but we're not ready to move them. Besides, with a public terrified of the idea of beaming solar power back from space there's no way they'd let you tinker with asteroid orbits near Earth.

As to the value of the Moon, dismissing it as "an airless rock" doesn't show a lot of knowledge about it, I'd have to say. Makes as much sense as people dismissing the whole space program back in the early 70's because all they noticed in any of the pictures coming back from our probes was craters, leading them to dismiss half the solar system as a bunch of worthless dead rocks.

We're in no position to start heading off to other star systems when we don't know jack about our own and can't reliably travel further than Earth orbit. If I'm lucky we'll have a second mission to Titan in my lifetime. If it happens, it may come at the cost of another in-depth look at the Jovian system. Today we still haven't even seen the entire surface of Mercury, our knowledge of the Kuiper belt is minimal at best and the Oort cloud is more conjecture than data. Heck, we still don't grok the Sun.

We've got some cool stuff coming down the pike, though. New space telescopes like the James Webb space telescope and the Herschel mission from Europe are going to teach us plenty about extrasolar systems without waiting on flight time. There seems to be solid support for a major and a big but not so major mission to interesting places in the outer solar system. We're going to keep plugging away at Mars, we're not only learning a lot there, but we're learning a lot about how to learn a lot about other planets.

Give us a chance. It's happening. There is long term thinking going on, but it really can't guide policy much in a short-sighted political environment. The first real commercial ventures are just cutting their teeth. Hopefully we'll see them get a chance to prove themselves rather than see them strangled in the crib like the prior generation of such ventures. That's what will give a chance for some of our tech to get unlinked from politics, and hopefully provide some stability.

The ideas are there, but there's a lot of underpinning work that's got to happen first. Some of it is happening. At least we're working on new ways to get into space. That hasn't always been the case, and it can yet all be shut down. At any rate, take a look at what is going on an enjoy the ride. If you're not impressed by what we're doing, I suggest you need to learn more about what we're doing rather than discount it. :)
 
Last edited:
One of the great migrations of recent history was fuled by the 'gold rush'. Once fusion power becomes more nessassary and practical, we'll need Helium-3.

Helium-3 is somewhat rare on Earth due to our magnetic shielding. But the Moon is littered with it.

When Helium-3 becomes the new 'gold', we'll see another gold rush.

Hopefully with salloons.
Any idea where the next refueling station is? Once you use the moon's He3 to leave earth orbit, do you have to carry enough for a round trip, or is there some place out there likely to have fuel? We know for sure where there is H, but what about He3?

If there are, that makes fuel requirements less, meaning more cargo space. Quicker colony growth, quicker technical expansion.
 
Back
Top