A Traveller Webcomic
- Thread starter Beech
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Gaming Glen
SOC-12
I liked it, too. My only complaint: there wasn't enough! Well, maybe have more dialogue or narrative and less wordless panels.
As for a statue of a critic, if one was ever built it was probably built to be placed under a pigeon roost....
more like artistic necessity. bill is absolutely correct in his criticism, but so is Beech - traveller space action (or any realistic space action) just does not lend itself to an exciting visual presentation. Beech will have to find a way to take that into account.
for all the supposed talent of the traveller fan base, I'm impressed to see anything at all. the art, posing, and tropes are pretty good so far, but I'd like to see how the setting and story line progress.
damn no-one.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Key being combat craft imo, and well maintained, top tech, military crewed. Not a poorly maintained, older tech, under crewed, civilian craft
I still think civilian craft in Traveller are going to have a blind spot directly aft. I'd think even military craft will to a degree. It can be covered sure. Think missile drones, fighters, and/or small craft in an AWACS role for full situational awareness in all directions. Or simply maneuver off axis routinely to keep an eye on your blind spot and hope whatever's back there can't or won't anticipate and correct to stay in your blind spot.
That said (and back to the comic
) I'd forgotten the context Beech mentioned. So in the comic the sensors do work, but the crew didn't. And I did actually take the "look out the window" bit as intended at the time Beech,
I did notice it. It's right there on panel 1 of page 3.
That's an excuse, not a reason. And I'd suspect it's an excuse made up after the fact too.
Skip the Pilot didn't bother to look at the scanners because he was too busy? That's plausible, barely plausible but plausible nonetheless. What excuse does the Del the Gunner have then? He's obviously been watching the scanners because, you know, they are kind of important when he needs to aim his weapons and because you, the writer, said he's been watching them.
So, this is the story you want us to believe: Del's been sitting in his turret during the multi-hour run to the jump limit. He's been watching the scanners like any good gunner because you said he has. He has been watching the fighters and SDBs on those scanners get closer and closer until they're in visual range. He's also been watching them close for all that time without telling anyone. He doesn't hear anyone else mention the fighters and SDB for all that time, but he doesn't speak up about their presence until Skip brags about getting away.
Does that story sound plausible to you? Do you expect us to find it plausible?
How about the real story instead? You wanted a dramatic series of pages that would instantly set the story and grip the reader's imagination. Therefore, you chose to write and illustrate the following scenes in the following manner:
- The BurrowWolf dramatically makes orbit and begins preparations for jump - regardless of the existence of jump limits.
- The BurrowWolf crew is dramatically and humorously surprised by the fighters and the SDBs - regardless of the existence of scanners.
- The BorrowWulf dramatically "jinks" around the SDB and jumps - regardless of vector movement.
You chose to do all that. That's the only reason it was done. You chose to do it.
That's the only thing that didn't work.
So you've ignored a vitally important part of the setting in order to make your job as an artist easier? Ships in Traveller normally jump after clearing the 100D limit, desperate ships jump after clearing the 10D limit, and suicidal ships jump at any time. You could have shown the planet and you could have also indicated some passage of time before the BurrowWolf jinks around the SDB like some atmospheric fighter and jumps away if you chose to do so.
Think minor setting details are either unimportant or can be ignored for "artistic" reasons? Let me tell you a story...
I've seen a Star Trek comic book issued during the original show's first season. The ship looks the same, the characters look the same, the uniforms look the same, everything and everyone have the same names. It was 99.99% Star Trek except for one thing: the illustrator chose to have flaming rocket exhaust plumes coming out of the end of each nacelle and the shuttle bay doors.
The Enterprise is a spaceship, spaceships use rockets, and the illustrator needed to show the Enterprise moving so he ignored a minor setting detail and added flaming rocket exhaust. Of course, the failure to adhere to that minor setting detail means that no Star Trek fans will ever think of that comic book as Star Trek despite the title or the illustrator's intentions.
I liked your webcomic. As I wrote earlier, some of the technical aspects of it reminded me of the Eisner Award winning Criminal series. I fully expect the comic to get better too. I also think there isn't enough Traveller in your webcomic to say it's Traveller-based.
The comic is good, it just isn't Traveller.
Regards,
Bill
P.S. RockViper is right. The engineer is seriously creepy. Finding out more about him and his species as the comic progresses will be fun.
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Beech,
Sure, take your ball and go home.
And don't bother addressing all the other points I raised either, just focus on one sentence and ignore the entire context of the post.What I said was that you chose to draw and plot the comic the way you did for one reason and then you came up with these other reasons for that choice only after we began asking questions.
You didn't think "Hmmm, I'm going to have to ignore both Traveller's jump limits and vector movement because it's very hard to write/draw those concepts in the eight pages I have to work with and I'll have the entire crew ignore their scanners too so I can insert the joke between the pilot and gunner.
What you actually thought was How can I make these eight pages exciting and dramatic enough to grab the readers' attention and make them follow future releases of the comic? You then deliberately sacrificed certain setting details in the furtherance of that excitement and drama while hoping we wouldn't either notice or care.
You know what? There's nothing wrong with the choices you made. Those choices produced an exciting and dramatic eight page webcomic that left the reader wondering what would happen next.
What those choices also produced - and what I've been pointing out since my first post - was an eight-page webcomic that wasn't really Traveller. Your choices didn't produce a bad webcomic, they produced a very good webcomic instead. But they also produced a webcomic that wasn't really Traveller.
Regards,
Bill
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Commander Drax
SOC-12
welldone, your criticism has been so demoralising and savagely executed that Beech will probably never bother to do another webcomic again which would be a loss to the community.
Criticisms need to be phrased appropriately and handled correctly in terms of tone. You can pass your comments by all means, but choose to be a catalyst not an inhibitor. The negative tone and phrasing of your comments would be enough to make me think why bother. The guy has clearly done a lot of work and like many artists and writers values approval and constructive criticisms. What you've done is attempt to demolish his work...
Criticisms need to be phrased appropriately and handled correctly in terms of tone. You can pass your comments by all means, but choose to be a catalyst not an inhibitor. The negative tone and phrasing of your comments would be enough to make me think why bother. The guy has clearly done a lot of work and like many artists and writers values approval and constructive criticisms. What you've done is attempt to demolish his work...
Commander Drax
SOC-12
Sounds like bullying to me.
That would be sad, yes. However, if one solicits feedback, one should be prepared for both positive and negative feedback. You can't file off rough edges without some abrasive material.
Negative tone? Unless by 'negative tone' you refer to the adverse criticism. Bill's first post was perfectly civil. As the exchange went on, he got a little testy, but nowhere does he cross the line. Or am I wrong? Feel free to point out inappropriate phrasing, if you can find any. I couldn't.
Hans
Sounds like an entirely appropriate comment in view of the preceding exchange.
Hans
Hans,
You just don't understand how tough it is getting patronized by a Traveller grognard that indiscriminantly wields the bold beat stick of death.
No, I don't, and you seem unwilling to educate me, since you consistently fail to back up your assertations with evidence. I'm getting more than a little fed up with that. If you're trying to convince me of anything, don't bother to respond to any of my posts unless you include evidence.Hans,
You just don't understand how tough it is getting patronized by a Traveller grognard that indiscriminantly wields the bold beat stick of death.
(Note the conditional. If you're posting for the sheer pleasure of lecturing me, feel free to continue as you've done before).
Hans
Cmdr. Drax,
Demoralizing? Savagely executed? The very first three words I wrote in this thread were: "Looks very good". In my first post I also wrote that the webcomic reminded me of an award-winning series of comic books. I also explained why I didn't think his Traveller webcomic wasn't Traveller enough and gave three precise examples of the same.
The specific points I made weren't addressed by either Davebill or Beech in any of their replies. Instead, they questioned why I had even presumed to critique their work at all. Davebill trotted out the same old tired logical fallacy that is always trotted out in these discussions; If you can't do X, you can't critique X. He also accused me of slander.
In his posts, Beech came up with a few excuses to explain away the points I raised, none of which passed any real scrutiny. His last post was little more than a bit of histrionics. Doug Berry on the TML once described it as "writing with one arm thrown across your forehead".
Re-read my first post and please point out any inappropriate phrases or tones.
I offered constructive criticism in my first post. I also approved of the work enough to compare it to an award winning series. Instead of demolishing his work, I cared enough about it to point out three concrete examples where, in my opinion, the comic strayed from the Traveller setting and how the comic could get better. In each of my posts, I've also written about how good the comic is and about those things I'm looking forward to see in future episodes.
So, what did I get for the constructive criticism Beech asked for? Davebill bitched me out and accused me of slander, Beech has run away blaming it all on me, you've called me a bully, and no one has yet to address the points I raised.
Boo-hoo, poor little me. I think I'll take my ball and go home too.
The real problem here is the "Special Olympics" mindset that has developed over the last few decades: Everyone gets a medal just for showing up and everyone is told they've done a good job no matter what. This way of thinking began with good intentions, but we all know which road is paved with those. The "Special Olympics" mindset is now so prevalent that nearly all constructive criticism, no matter how carefully presented, is automatically viewed as mean spirited personal attacks.
When we begin to expect nothing but praise, and automatic praise at that, we're lost.
Let me again recap my opinion of the webcomic so there is no more misunderstandings. I like the webcomic and I look forward to reading it in future. There are certain aspects of the webcomic, however, that, in my opinion, set it apart from the Traveller setting.
Regards,
Bill
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Hans,
You just don't understand how tough it is getting patronized by a Traveller grognard that indiscriminantly wields the bold beat stick of death.
Jeffr0,
I've been using the bold function to emphasize words and phrases for several years now. Because writing lacks the many and varied nuances the human voice uses to indicate emphasis, I began using bold as a way to provide textual emphasis.
Until very recently, when it was mistook for shouting, no one had every taken exception to my use of bold. I have decided to stop using the bold function from now on, however.
Regards,
Bill
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Bah! I say again Bah!
Bold has it's place and you used it well. I see no reason for you to stop.
It might have been taken mistakenly (all CAPS is shouting in typing
) by some in that one case but I think even Jeff was just joking in the last few. I'm only guessing from the "wink" though, maybe I'm mistaken now.There's all kinds of helpful techniques to try to get the message across in written form. You explained yourself (not that I mistook your emphasis) and that should be good enough. A couple jabs in jest, fine. Some of us chuckled (well, one of us anyway
the first time) but I think it's time to move on.Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
I'm not really into comics and I only looked at this one because of the deteriorating tone of the comments and I wondered what all the fuss was about.
My 2Cr:
I like it. There are limits on what you can do in 8 pages of pictures and speech bubbles, and I think it is well-presented and a good attempt to portray the difficult, often ambiguous and controversial, and sometimes downright contradictory universe of Traveller.
Real space flight is boring, Space-opera is exciting, the Traveller rules are a mechanistic compromise between the two. You can't afford a compromise between exciting and boring in a comic book, like you can in several hours of a game, so if something has to give, it must be the pedantry.
There is nothing there IIRC to suggest that the pilot isn't making an emergency jump way too close to the planet. The alternative is getting shot at all the way out to the 100D limit. What would you* do? And of course, a comic is by definition 'cinematic', so they have every chance of avoiding a mis-jump consequence.
If this is the case, those small ships might have only just emerged from the sensor-clutter of the planet.
I'm happy to put the anti-missile 'jinking' down to an artistic representation of Maneuver-Evade, though I have to say I'm less happy with the non-detction and evasion of the big ship. That did seem a little contrived, and I'm not sure what was supposed to be going on there. It could have been 'sitting cold', but...
On the whole, I think it's as good as any comic can expect to be, and there's more to Traveller than the mechanics of ship movement.
Bill brought up a few good points from a gamer's perspective, but I think the main thing to extract from his comments is to maintain an awareness of how your story would play out in a game and steer as close to that as the medium will allow.
I'd give it 8/10. Pretty darn good for a comic, but with room to improve.
Keep up the good work.
*I'm not afraid of using bold. It provides necessary emphasis.
My 2Cr:
I like it. There are limits on what you can do in 8 pages of pictures and speech bubbles, and I think it is well-presented and a good attempt to portray the difficult, often ambiguous and controversial, and sometimes downright contradictory universe of Traveller.
Real space flight is boring, Space-opera is exciting, the Traveller rules are a mechanistic compromise between the two. You can't afford a compromise between exciting and boring in a comic book, like you can in several hours of a game, so if something has to give, it must be the pedantry.
There is nothing there IIRC to suggest that the pilot isn't making an emergency jump way too close to the planet. The alternative is getting shot at all the way out to the 100D limit. What would you* do? And of course, a comic is by definition 'cinematic', so they have every chance of avoiding a mis-jump consequence.
If this is the case, those small ships might have only just emerged from the sensor-clutter of the planet.
I'm happy to put the anti-missile 'jinking' down to an artistic representation of Maneuver-Evade, though I have to say I'm less happy with the non-detction and evasion of the big ship. That did seem a little contrived, and I'm not sure what was supposed to be going on there. It could have been 'sitting cold', but...
On the whole, I think it's as good as any comic can expect to be, and there's more to Traveller than the mechanics of ship movement.
Bill brought up a few good points from a gamer's perspective, but I think the main thing to extract from his comments is to maintain an awareness of how your story would play out in a game and steer as close to that as the medium will allow.
I'd give it 8/10. Pretty darn good for a comic, but with room to improve.
Keep up the good work.
*I'm not afraid of using bold. It provides necessary emphasis.
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