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A Traveller Webcomic

The real problem here is the "Special Olympics" mindset that has developed over the last few decades: Everyone gets a medal just for showing up and everyone is told they've done a good job no matter what. This way of thinking began with good intentions, but we all know which road is paved with those. The "Special Olympics" mindset is now so prevalent that nearly all constructive criticism, no matter how carefully presented, is automatically viewed as mean spirited personal attacks.

When we begin to expect nothing but praise, and automatic praise at that, we're lost.

Let me again recap my opinion of the webcomic so there is no more misunderstandings. I like the webcomic and I look forward to reading it in future. There are certain aspects of the webcomic, however, that, in my opinion, set it apart from the Traveller setting.


Regards,
Bill

Criticism is better handled in smaller doses. Come up with a major thing that you think can be changed or improved and talk about that. Taking criticism is important to improvement in what you do but coming at someone with a laundry list does put people off. also smaller inconsequential crits often do the opposite of helping they just make you look bad. So my advice one at a time don't sweat the mall stuff. In the end try not to take away others enjoyment of the piece.
 
I'm not really into comics and I only looked at this one because of the deteriorating tone of the comments and I wondered what all the fuss was about.

My 2Cr:

I like it. There are limits on what you can do in 8 pages of pictures and speech bubbles, and I think it is well-presented and a good attempt to portray the difficult, often ambiguous and controversial, and sometimes downright contradictory universe of Traveller.

Real space flight is boring, Space-opera is exciting, the Traveller rules are a mechanistic compromise between the two. You can't afford a compromise between exciting and boring in a comic book, like you can in several hours of a game, so if something has to give, it must be the pedantry.

There is nothing there IIRC to suggest that the pilot isn't making an emergency jump way too close to the planet. The alternative is getting shot at all the way out to the 100D limit. What would you* do? And of course, a comic is by definition 'cinematic', so they have every chance of avoiding a mis-jump consequence.
If this is the case, those small ships might have only just emerged from the sensor-clutter of the planet.

I'm happy to put the anti-missile 'jinking' down to an artistic representation of Maneuver-Evade, though I have to say I'm less happy with the non-detction and evasion of the big ship. That did seem a little contrived, and I'm not sure what was supposed to be going on there. It could have been 'sitting cold', but...

On the whole, I think it's as good as any comic can expect to be, and there's more to Traveller than the mechanics of ship movement.

Bill brought up a few good points from a gamer's perspective, but I think the main thing to extract from his comments is to maintain an awareness of how your story would play out in a game and steer as close to that as the medium will allow.

I'd give it 8/10. Pretty darn good for a comic, but with room to improve.
Keep up the good work. :)

*I'm not afraid of using bold. It provides necessary emphasis.

Whipsnade, this is the type of criticism that is acceptable, it contains negative points and things that the poster would like to see added or changed in future issues, but the overall tone is positive and upbeat.

First of all, I'm not from a generation that values this whole 'special olympics thing' people don't and shouldn't get awards just for trying, I do firmly believe in kindness and sensitivity and is possible to be an excellent critic and worthy contributor with both kindness and sensitivity.

Lets not start the 'nasty olympics' in this thread, else you might get the Gold Medal.
 
Whipsnade, this is the type of criticism that is acceptable, it contains negative points and things that the poster would like to see added or changed in future issues, but the overall tone is positive and upbeat.
Acceptable to whom? IMO taking offense at what Bill said and/or the tone in which it was said was unacceptable. Note that "not taking offense" is not the same thing as necessarily agreeing with him.


Hans
 
my impression as well. and the "bold beat-stick of death" ought to become an internet/texting classic.

I owe it all to Dave Chase. (Though I did tack on the "of death" part myself, I have to say.)

:)

I've got no problem with Bill's boldness, personally. He is one of the most valuable resources on these boards... and is easily on par with the other great Traveller uber-fans such as Berka, Oz, and robject. (I have to admit that I'm shocked that poor Hans fails to see the humor in all of this, though. I have no idea what he's upset about, but if he can show me where I've been "malicious, spiteful, or violently unfriendly" then I would be glad to contemplate my own behavior in light of his concerns. I will remind him, of course, that these are, after all, debating forums and that there are rhetorical techniques apart from raw assertions, supported with evidence, and threaded together with logic.)

:D
 
This may or may not be a funny story. (No point, of course.)

When I first got interested in Traveller several years ago, there was this thing called the the TML. I was really curious, because my favorite games from the 70's and 80's were dead as doornails... but here was this old game with what appeared to be a huge following.

So I didn't know anything about Traveller except Double Adventures 1-3 and Supplements 1-2. Maybe I had the 25th Anniversary pack from SJGames by then. I go onto the TML, though, and there are scads of posts with a subject of "Ramen and Whipsnade are Dead."

(What in the world?)

I could not for the life of me understand what was going on with these people on the TML. Such strange people! With so many inside jokes, apparently. But every posting I saw about "Ramen and Whipsnade" gradually made me angrier and angrier until I got fed up and unsubscribed! I have no idea why it made me so mad. I'm almost afraid, even now, to go back and look at those weird postings.

...

Any one else that's relatively new to Traveller have a story about something silly that rubbed them the wrong way when they first made contact with modern Traveller fandom?
 
Any one else that's relatively new to Traveller have a story about something silly that rubbed them the wrong way when they first made contact with modern Traveller fandom?

The TML just rubs people the wrong way, period. :D

I got in a long time ago and quickly got out after seeing the flaming going on. It was not a nice place to visit.
 
I've got no problem with Bill's boldness, personally. He is one of the most valuable resources on these boards...
agree.

(I have to admit that I'm shocked that poor Hans fails to see the humor in all of this ....
eh, people have their perceptions. happens to all of us.

Criticism is better handled in smaller doses.
heck no. put me on point, I want it all up-front so I know what's going on. if I can't handle it, that's because you haven't hit me with it yet. no ginger pussy-footing. c'mon dude, launch! I can take it.
 
Whipsnade, this is the type of criticism that is acceptable, it contains negative points and things that the poster would like to see added or changed in future issues, but the overall tone is positive and upbeat.


Commander Drax,

Once again, re-read my first post in this thread. I see very little difference in both tone or content between my first post and Mandarin Dude's remarks.

Let me quote the very first sentence in that post:

Looks very good. Very technically accomplished. It isn't Traveller, but it looks really good.

I make four statements in that single sentence, three of which are "upbeat" and "positive".

I next listed the things I liked about the comic first, comparing it to an award winning series. I then listed three specific examples of where I thought the comic drifted from the Traveller setting.

After that I summed up my opinions of the comic, praising the creators' skills again and explaining that the comic wasn't Traveller enough. I state that I'll be reading and saving the comic in the future, regardless of whether they make it more like Traveller or not, and then ask if they've any deckplans or other information about the BurrowWolf.

My tone was light throughout and the majority of my comments positive. I couldn't have been more positive without being disingenuous, without slipping into the "Special Olympics" mindset I've mentioned.

... I do firmly believe in kindness and sensitivity and is possible to be an excellent critic and worthy contributor with both kindness and sensitivity.

Please point to any unkind statement in my first post.


Regards,
Bill
 
I go onto the TML, though, and there are scads of posts with a subject of "Ramen and Whipsnade are Dead." (snip) But every posting I saw about "Ramen and Whipsnade" gradually made me angrier and angrier until I got fed up and unsubscribed! I have no idea why it made me so mad. I'm almost afraid, even now, to go back and look at those weird postings.


Jeffr0,

Although I'll be taking the thread further off course, let me briefly explain the whole Ramen & Whipsnade thing.

When I first joined the TML, instead of merely lurking in the archives, I did so under a pseudonym. I did that because of my first experiences with the internet back in the early 1990s. I'd gotten "online" way back then in search of wargame opponents. I traveled quite often for work at the time, so arranging FTF or PBM games was difficult. PBeM seemed like the ticket.

In those days, you bought a service at Sears (yes, Sears) and accessed very primitive BBSs through modems you actually placed your telephone receiver in. You'd dial a long distance number, d/l the BBS' content, ring off, and then read it on you computer.

I accessed a few boards devoted to the Avalon Hill game Diplomacy, joined several games, and quickly realized I was being used as a patsy. The three(?) boards I visited had many of the same people on them and those people were very cliquish. They'd allow newbies (yes, they used that term then) to join the games in order get the players they needed. They'd then kill those players off first and continue with the game.

Diplomacy is centered on just that, diplomacy. There are no dice, no combat tables. You talk, talk, talk, and talk some more with all the players involved hoping to influence the movement of their pieces. As a game-filling newbie, no one on the BBSs would bother talking to me. I'd last three or four turns, in the dark, until one or more of the other players gobbled me up. Let's just say I didn't take very kindly to being used in such a manner and left the early internet with a very bad taste in my mouth.

Jump forward nearly a decade to 2001 and I really, really, really, wanted to become active in the then premier Traveller forum online; the TML. The trouble is I'd been burned before and the TML at the time was noted for flamewars. (The worst flamewar I've ever seen was on the TML.) I love Traveller, but I don't want to burn any bridges online. Although I hate using pseudonyms, while understanding the internet etiquette behind their use, I subscribed to the TML as "Larsen E. Whipsnade". I figured if things got bad I could later resubscribe under a different name.

Let's just say things didn't go bad. They went very good instead, too good as a matter of fact. When I tried slowly shedding my defensive pseudonym people got upset. They didn't recognize me, it was if I were typecast. Making matters worse, the bits of fluff Fred Ramen and I had improvised together were so well liked that people wanted nothing but more improv from us. We'd get dozens of private emails a month suggesting, demanding, and pleading that we write Traveller novels, scripts, webcasts, and so forth.

We both tried to live with the typecasting, but it wouldn't work. While Fred was the first to suggest out loud that we kill off our alter-egos, I suspect we'd both been thinking about it for a while. We then collaborated on a huge story full of in-jokes and sci-fi references in which Ramen & Whipsnade died. High profile members of the TML got cameos, even Mr. Miller and Mr. Wiseman showed up.

After killing them off, I unsubscribed from the TML and resubscribed under my own name.

The trouble is that I'd already joined COTI. Dan "Red River" Roseberry, bless his soul, had migrated here from the TML bringing some of my materials with him. He contacted me saying folks had questions, so I joined up under the Whipsnade moniker. Unlike with the TML, I can't change my name here and still keep the statistics I've developed under it.

So I'm stuck with being "Whipsnade", no matter how I sign my posts.


Regards,
Bill
 
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From my point of view, I see nothing wrong with the tone or content of Larsen's post. If anything, some of the follow-up posts by others could be criticized for their tone and content. Anytime you post something publicly, you invite comments. Whether you think Mr. Whipsnade was correct or not, his post was entirely in order.

It's a fun strip, too. Very well done, even if I recognize all the ship models. Again, though, I understand Bill's reasons for positing that it is not Traveller. Not sure I entirely agree, but I understand.

So, were the fighter-looking things the SDBs? And big ship the destroyer? Or were the fighter-looking things fighters, and the big thing the SDB?

Hmm. Maybe the "Special Olympics" comment was going too far.
 
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I could not for the life of me understand what was going on with these people on the TML. Such strange people! With so many inside jokes, apparently. But every posting I saw about "Ramen and Whipsnade" gradually made me angrier and angrier until I got fed up and unsubscribed! I have no idea why it made me so mad. I'm almost afraid, even now, to go back and look at those weird postings.
Oh, they stopped making those posts as soon as they'd gotten rid of you. They were driving the rest of us crazy too.


Hans


(I really regret having to do this (it somewhat spoils the joke, IMO), but I suppose I'd better put in a smiley to make sure no one takes it the wrong way: :D. It's a joke. "They" didn't really want Jeff to leave and they weren't really trying to scare him off[*]. So please don't anyone take offense, all right?)


[*] But they did stop making the posts eventually.
 
So, were the fighter-looking things the SDBs? And big ship the destroyer? Or were the fighter-looking things fighters, and the big thing the SDB?


Colin,

Both Davebill and Beech agree that the smaller ships are fighters, and delightfully nasty looking fighters they are too. They're just the sort of illo I'd like to pull out at the gaming table and show to my players; These are the ships you're sensors have picked up.

I'd think an illo of the fighters from BurrowWolf would really get their attention, don't you? ;)

There seems to be some question about the larger ship. Davebill called it a destroyer, the text calls it a SDB, and Beech calls it an SDB too. I'd go with SDB. Davebill was most likely upset when he posted and just plunked in any old warship designation.


Regards,
Bill
 
Well looked over Whipsnade's original post I do think you over did it a bit constructive and never nasty but there is a point of overload.

Would have been nice to see it with all original models but I know from experience that does not work. I failed three times doing 3D comics with all original models. even though the look of them was more toonish I knew introducing a new character would be 40 hours of work (and I work fast) . More elaborate sets the same so going with pre made stuff will make it a huge task down from impossible.

I avoid using existing licenses so I can have a bit more leeway with the story.
 
Whipsnade, this is the type of criticism that is acceptable, it contains negative points and things that the poster would like to see added or changed in future issues, but the overall tone is positive and upbeat.

First of all, I'm not from a generation that values this whole 'special olympics thing' people don't and shouldn't get awards just for trying, I do firmly believe in kindness and sensitivity and is possible to be an excellent critic and worthy contributor with both kindness and sensitivity.

Lets not start the 'nasty olympics' in this thread, else you might get the Gold Medal.

Thanks for the appreciation, Cdr Drax, but I don't think there was much wrong with Bill's original post - except perhaps the laughter. That tended to give the whole post a sneering tone that maybe wasn't intended. It's generally impolite to laugh at someone's work unless it's a comedy.
 
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Thanks for the appreciation, Cdr Drax, but I don't think there was much wrong with Bill's original post - except perhaps the laughter. That tended to give the whole post a sneering tone that maybe wasn't intended. It's generally impolite to laugh at someone's work unless it's a comedy.


Icosahedron,

You're right. My inclusion of laughter in parentheses was a mistake. :(

I stupidly thought it would take the edge off the examples I'd pointed out, sort of add some levity to the three negative points I'd listed after the two positive points.

We all know which road is paved with good intentions... :(


Regards,
Bill
 
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Finally got around to reading it. Great work! I understand Bill's comments, but I've done exactly the same things, for the same reasons, in my animations - a battle lasting an hour, between ships a light-second apart, just doesn't work visually.
 
Lets just put this to bed...

I understand Larsen standing by his comments, as I stand by mine, I'm also prepared to recognise that words in print can read differently in tone to how they sound in your mind when composing them giving the aforementioned words an edge that perhaps isn't there. This is a far as I am willing to extend the olive branch on this subject, because someone's feelings have been hurt when it comes to this thread. Not mine I might add, or Whipsnades, but Beech's who left the thread a few pages back after taking offence when his explanations were challenged.

Enough Said.
 
I understand Larsen standing by his comments, as I stand by mine, I'm also prepared to recognise that words in print can read differently in tone to how they sound in your mind when composing them giving the aforementioned words an edge that perhaps isn't there. This is a far as I am willing to extend the olive branch on this subject, because someone's feelings have been hurt when it comes to this thread. Not mine I might add, or Whipsnade's, but Beech's who left the thread a few pages back after taking offence when his explanations were challenged.
That begs the question of whether it was reasonable of Beech to take offense. I, for one, don't think it was.


Hans
 
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