Odd starports

[atpollard]

Those rules sections don't say that having a shipyard makes it a class A starport. They say that a Class A starport has a shipyard. There's a difference, you know. And if you'll pardon me for sounding just a little exasperated, that's the point I've made three times already!

If what you said was true, governments would not be able to build starships on worlds with class B-E starports. But HG clearly and specifically states that they can. You even quoted that yourself!

So, once again, I ask:

"So what's the difference between a world with a Class A starport where the government can get ships built and a world with a Class E starport where the government can get ships built? It's obviously not that one has a shipyard and the other one hasn't."​

Hans

I will gladly answer you question in detail if you will please point out a rule that explains the difference between a class A starport and a class B Starport EXCEPT for the ability to build starships. Building and repairing starships does not appear to be ONE of the criteria for class A, it appears to be the ONLY criteria that distinguishes it from a class B starport.

 

[dean]

I will gladly answer you question in detail if you will please point out a rule that explains the difference between a class A starport and a class B Starport EXCEPT for the ability to build starships. Building and repairing starships does not appear to be ONE of the criteria for class A, it appears to be the ONLY criteria that distinguishes it from a class B starport.

So a Class A starport has an affiliated public shipyard capable of building starships.

Not that you can necessarily get one there for a variety of reasons....

 

[rancke]

I will gladly answer you question in detail if you will please point out a rule that explains the difference between a class A starport and a class B Starport EXCEPT for the ability to build starships. Building and repairing starships does not appear to be ONE of the criteria for class A, it appears to be the ONLY criteria that distinguishes it from a class B starport.

I agree. It does seem like the only thing that distinguishing a Class A starport from a Class B starport is that you can buy starships from it rather than just boats. It is evidently NOT that one builds starships and the other doesn't, because a world with a Class B starport can build starships for its government (provided it has the requisite technology).


Hans

 

[rancke]

So a Class A starport has an affiliated public shipyard capable of building starships.

Not that you can necessarily get one there for a variety of reasons....

Well, the rules unequivocally says you can, but I quite agree that those rules are simplified. IMO there may be occasional reasonable delays without threatening a starport classification. It's only if the delays become chronic that reclassification may be the result.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Since starships must be at least 100 tons, is it fair to say that any Class A starport on a world below pop 5 is potentially "problematic"?

AT,

Given my work history(1), I'd say yes. I'd even go as far as saying it's stretching things with pop code 6; 1 million sophonts. That, however, is just my opinion for my Traveller Universe...

... and even I have an exception for MTU's Grote!


Regards,
Bill

1 - I've worked for shipyards, worked in shipyards, visited shipyards as a tech rep, and visited shipyards as a customer on four continents.

 

[atpollard]

So, once again, I ask:

"So what's the difference between a world with a Class A starport where the government can get ships built and a world with a Class E starport where the government can get ships built? It's obviously not that one has a shipyard and the other one hasn't."​

Hans

Your answer is on THIS topic.

 

[shadowdragon]

i think one thing that has been lost in the shuffle is that the UWP starport is the Imperial starport...at least that's how i read it to mean. a planet may or mayn't have its own star and spaceports, and it may or mayn't have its own associated shipyards, but the classification that is recorded is what the Imperials have built/leased there. so yes, imo a system with an official Class E starport could still have refined fuel, and fully capaple shipyards available to commercial interests. They just are not imperial businesses per se and will probably charge significantly more than an imperial base for services, especially to offworlders.

but i could be wrong
:smirk:

 

[Whipsnade]

i think one thing that has been lost in the shuffle is that the UWP starport is the Imperial starport...at least that's how i read it to mean.

Shadowdragon,

That's how I've always viewed and it is, I believe, the consensus opinion within the Hobby. As with many things in Traveller, the basic depiction of starsports changed somewhat as Traveller became more and more OTU-focused.

I no longer have the 1977 version of the First Three LBBs, but my 1981 version of LBB3 explicitly mentions extraterritoriality while not mentioning the Imperium or an imperium at all. Not much later we've John Ford's JTAS article describing an Imperial "Skyport Authority" that operates starports followed by MT strongly implying starports that are Imperially operated, T4 explicitly stating the same, and GT depicting the SPA as an Imperial ministry.

... a planet may or mayn't have its own star and spaceports, and it may or mayn't have its own associated shipyards, but the classification that is recorded is what the Imperials have built/leased there. so yes, imo a system with an official Class E starport could still have refined fuel, and fully capaple shipyards available to commercial interests.

Again, a view well supported in canon. In CT there's a very early JTAS adventure featuring a corporate "starport" with restricted access, Al Morai's various facilities that create Class B ports for their ships in systems that have none, and other examples. MT baldly states that spaceports can handle starships, but that extraterritoriality is usually not present. In MT's terms, extrality is the only actual difference between a system's sole starport and the many possible spaceports. (Which neatly "solves" our questions about how a system with a Class E starport can have a navy.)

BTW, this "Starport = Spaceport w/o Extrality" method is how I explain worlds like Burtson/Trin's Veil IMTU.

That system has five trade routes passing through it, two of which are GT:FT main routes(1), while the system itself only hosts a Cass C port with a pop code of 6 and a TL of 8. IMTU the trade passing through the system uses a "farport" operated for that purpose by a shippers consortium and placed beyond the primary's 100D limit. Independents can use this farport, albeit at inflated prices and reduced services, or they can travel further inward and use the Class C port on the planet. Extrality concerns for the farport are moot because the goods and peoples passing through the port are not staying in the Burtson system and the system itself is a colony of Squanine, a world with significant shares in the shipper's consortium.

They just are not imperial businesses per se and will probably charge significantly more than an imperial base for services, especially to offworlders.

Exactly, they could charge more or they could deny access to off-worlders completely.

but i could be wrong :smirk:

Then most of the Hobby would be wrong. Anyway, all that truly matters is your personal TU. You needn't worry about the rest if you're only playing and aren't writing.


Regards,
Bill

1 - A main route consists of as many as 20 ships per day and an average of 1 million dTons and 20,000 passengers per week.

 

[saundby]

From the 1977 Worlds and Adventures, page 1:
"2. Starport Type: Many worlds have starports, their presence being essential to interstellar trade and commerce. Each world must be checked for its starport type...
The starports table indicates one specific distribution of starports as a basis for star mapping. Just as the distribution of stars can be altered (as indicated in item 1), the referee is also free to create his own starports tables, perhaps as many as one for each subsector.
Starports are further described in the starport chart. In many cases, starports will be accompanied by naval or scout bases, and will have a wide range of facilities. In nearly all cases, a planet will consider that a starport is extraterritorial, and not subject to local law, but will enforce strict entrance and exit controls."

So, the 1977 text is very nearly the same as that of the 1981 edition. The starport types table differs significantly, though. In the 1977 edition the starport types table includes the throws to check for naval and scout bases. The lists of services are unchanged, except notes in the 1977 edition that if a type C or D starport has a Scout base, refined fuel is available for scouts.

 

[coliver988]

there are some odd airports here, but this one planes land on the beach. Classic Class E port

MSN link (sorry for the ads)

 

[Condottiere]

Flying boats and float planes were popular, when the construction of airports and airfields was thought to lag far behind demand.

 

[boomslang]

there are some odd airports here, but this one planes land on the beach. Classic Class E port

That aircraft a DHC-6 Twin Otter by the way, and they are built for "off-airport" operations in the bush and near-bush.

Very IISS in flavor and purpose.

 

[Timerover51]

In the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific, if you want to go to the island of Choiseul, as Choiseul is too mountainous for any landing strips, you land on a coral island offshore in the middle of a coconut palm grove on a grass strip. Coconut palms at each end of the strip, no refueling, so Class E. To get to Gizo by air, you land on an island in Gizo Harbor on a cleared grass strip, and take a launch to Gizo proper. Refueling on Gizo is done with 55 gallon drums and hand pumps, just barely Class D. The aircraft I was on was also a Twin Otter, 8 months overdue for an overhaul. The 737 that we flew into Guadalcanal on was 3 months overdue for an overhaul, and Australia was waving the overhaul requirement for a few months, as the Solomons could not pay to have it done. I think that the Australian tax payer finally footed the bill for the overhaul. While out there, I kept thinking that float planes would be highly useful, but the British and Australians did not seem to be into them.

 

[BlackBat242]

In the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific....
While out there, I kept thinking that float planes would be highly useful, but the British and Australians did not seem to be into them.

Unfortunately, commercial passenger-certified float planes/flying boats are a thing of the past.

Something comparable to a modern Boeing 314 (68 passengers) or even just a Grumman Albatross (28 passengers), with turboprop engines instead of piston, would function very well in many places.

Of course, a modern Convair R3Y Tradewind would be a perfect multi-use aircraft for isolated island regions - with the aft half in passenger configuration and the front half (with the lifting nose of the R3Y-2 variant) for large cargo items.

Australia did built a "recent" floatplane - a variant of the GAF N22B Nomad (1975-85 production).

It was used for a little by Barrier Reef Airways and by Alimediterranea in Italy, but the type in general had safety issues, and very few are still flying (all wheeled versions).

Location Sarasota-Bradenton Airport, Fl, USA in October 1997:

 

[Condottiere]

The ShinMaywa US-2 is a Japanese large short takeoff and landing amphibious aircraft developed and manufactured by seaplane specialist ShinMaywa (formerly Shin Meiwa). It was developed from the earlier Shin Meiwa US-1A seaplane, which was introduced during the 1970s.

The ShinMaywa US-2 was developed on behalf of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF), which was procuring the amphibian to replace its aging US-1A fleet. In Japanese service, it is operated in the air-sea rescue (ASR) role. The US-2 can also be used in other capacities, such as an aerial fire fighter, being capable of taking on 15 tonnes of water for this mission.[1] Various overseas operators have held discussions on potential acquisitions of the type, including the Indian Navy and Indian Coast Guard; countries such as Indonesia, Thailand, and Greece have also shown interest in the US-2 for various purposes.

 

[Enoki]

So, what would the equivalent starport be here..?

Maybe a bit more security is needed here?

 

[Timerover51]

Let's see. A wind sock, a building, and maybe a radio. So far, Class E. Refueling drums might be in or behind the building, but no guarantee. So, with the building, an upgraded Class E.

 

[boomslang]

Let's see. A wind sock, a building, and maybe a radio. So far, Class E. Refueling drums might be in or behind the building, but no guarantee. So, with the building, an upgraded Class E.

There's a beach right there, so unrefined fuel is available.

But there is no staff, so it's not up to Class D requirements.

 

[Timerover51]

There's a beach right there, so unrefined fuel is available.

But there is no staff, so it's not up to Class D requirements.

I forgot to take into account the beach with water. My mistake. I was thinking of conventional aircraft with avgas or JP fuel.

 

[coliver988]

and the law level is probably 2 or 3?