Travel time for in system jumps?

[Icosahedron]

Sounds like hair-splitting to me.
As I read it:
Jump-1 takes you approximately 1 parsec and dumps you in an adjacent hex. This is the minimum travel for a misjump.
Jump-0 can be deliberately engineered, but will not occur as a natural misjump (for whatever reason) and places you elsewhere in the same hex. There is no minimum distance: you could Jump on the spot, theoretically, though in practice random exit parameters would probably result in some positional uncertainty.

 

[far-trader]

Sounds like hair-splitting to me.
As I read it:
Jump-1 takes you approximately 1 parsec and dumps you in an adjacent hex. This is the minimum travel for a misjump.
Jump-0 can be deliberately engineered, but will not occur as a natural misjump (for whatever reason) and places you elsewhere in the same hex. There is no minimum distance: you could Jump on the spot, theoretically, though in practice random exit parameters would probably result in some positional uncertainty.

Actually, iirc, the canon function for spatial displacement is 1000km(?) x Jump# which for a J0 (anywhere in the same hex if you prefer that, including nowhere at all, spatially) would of course be zero. A J0 will be spatially accurate to a very high order. Technically precise with no variation in fact. Which thinking about it is also interesting.

 

[aramis]

EDIT: Incidentally, if a system is able to be anywhere in hex 1204, then it can be anywhere from 11.000[...]001 to 12.0 and from 3.000[...]001 to 4.0. Look at a hex map.


Hans

Hans: Mathematically, Locations are typically quantized by rounding nearest, not rounding up, hence 11.5 to 12.4999, not 11.000000001-12. ±0.5 rather than -0.9999 to +0. This also is how error in accuracy is expressed normally, so it is more consistent.

a 4 hex distance on the map is 4±0.5 Pc... (actually, due to other issues of hex grids, an additional error can happen when not exactly along the grid grain...)

Further, Hans, there is no reason to assume that the numbers are not the measure of the center of the hex; it being one edge would be implied by making it -0.999 to -0.

 

[rancke]

Hans: Mathematically, Locations are typically quantized by rounding nearest, not rounding up, hence 11.5 to 12.4999, not 11.000000001-12. ±0.5 rather than -0.9999 to +0. This also is how error in accuracy is expressed normally, so it is more consistent.

a 4 hex distance on the map is 4±0.5 Pc... (actually, due to other issues of hex grids, an additional error can happen when not exactly along the grid grain...)

Further, Hans, there is no reason to assume that the numbers are not the measure of the center of the hex; it being one edge would be implied by making it -0.999 to -0.

Wil, cartographically, a hex on a hex map occupy the space I indicated, not the space you implied.

And why do you respond to the throwaway remark but not the main question? Is the +/- 0.5 hex mentioned anywhere in the rules? Or is this just your opinion on what would be a reasonable interpretation? As I said before, the game rule places a misjumped ship at least one hex away from the origin hex, never in it. Is there any game rule that indicates that a hex is less (or more) than a parsec away from the neighboring hex? Are you, for example, ever unable to go from a system in one hex to the system in an adjacent hex by jump-1 because they're each at the far side of their respective hexes, making the actual distance between the two almost two parsecs?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Actually, hans, a hex is 0.67 wide by 1 tall...

And I responded to the part of the post that was relevatn to the discussion.

Anyway, if I am at center of Hex 0, and I go to the near side of hex 1, that's 0.5 hexes, not 1 hex; if I go to the far edge of hex 1, it's 1.5 hexes. The game explicitly treats anything in the adjacent hex as 1 hex distance.

And the exvidence of quantization is sup 10 map compared to Imperium Map. Whole parse vs half parsec hexes... and the distance conversions. 1 hex apart on the imperium map is still in a different hex in the S10 map.

 

[rancke]

Actually, hans, a hex is 0.67 wide by 1 tall...

Very well. Consider my previous remark amended to correspond to that.

And I responded to the part of the post that was relevant to the discussion.

No, you didn't. I know that because the part of the post that you didn't respond to was the part where I continued the discussion I was having. Whereas the part you responded to was a throwaway remark that introduced a new (minor) issue.

Anyway, if I am at center of Hex 0, and I go to the near side of hex 1, that's 0.5 hexes, not 1 hex; if I go to the far edge of hex 1, it's 1.5 hexes. The game explicitly treats anything in the adjacent hex as 1 hex distance.

Exactly my point. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't go 0.5 parsecs to the near side of the hex you're in according to any of the game rules that deal with hex movement. You either don't leave the hex or you leave the hex. You don't almost leave the hex, but not quite. Do or don't. There is no half try.

Oh, and you're not in the center of the hex; you're in the hex, plain and simple.

And the evidence of quantization is sup 10 map compared to Imperium Map. Whole parse vs half parsec hexes... and the distance conversions. 1 hex apart on the imperium map is still in a different hex in the S10 map.

Rules, Wil. Game rules. I'm asking for game rules. Rules that describe movement between hexes in game terms. Have you got any that support your claim?


Hans

 

[Gray Lensman]

All of the above is an example of why I didn't post here initially .

IMTU I do not have misjump after reaching TL 11 (the software does not really allow mistakes [okay, it's handwavium, so sue me]) before TL 11, misjumps do take place, but are 1d6 in distance AND duration, not 1d6x1d6.

Not within the strict rules but sensible IMO, as a GM I really don't need misjumps to get my PCs in trouble if yoou know what I mean :devil:.

YMMV

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Actually, not really. A J-1 is UP to 3.26 parsecs. (anywhere within one hex) A J-1 can send you to a star 1 LY away. So, J1 is 0-3.26 parsecs. J2 - 3.27 - 6.52 Parsecs, etc. At least that is how Jump space works...

Wrong.

First, a parsec is ~3.26156 light-years (not the other way around), a light-year being the distance that light travels in one standard year through a vacuum.

Second, an engine's jump rating is the number of parsecs the engine is capable of driving the ship. Thus, J-1 is 0 to 1 parsec; J-2 is 0 to 2 parsecs; and so forth.

"Jump drives are rated from 1 to 6: the number of parsecs which can be travelled in one week ... A misjump is an unpredictable random jump. Throw one die to determine the number of dice thrown (1 to 6); throw that number of dice to determine the number of hexes in length the misjump is..." -- LBB2 (1981), page 6

Third, it is obvious from canon that the distance travelled during a misjump is a minimum of 1 parsec (~3.262 ly), and a maximum of 36 parsecs (117 ly). Of course, and as always, results may vary IYTU.

:: I've ruled IMTU that a zero-point jump is a viable tactical maneuver with a +1 DM (in addition to the other DMs) to the misjump roll, thus allowing a 1-in-36 chance that a zero-point jump will initiate a spontaneous misjump, and send the ship from 1 to 36 parsecs away.

 

[rancke]

Second, an engine's jump rating is the number of parsecs the engine is capable of driving the ship. Thus, J-1 is 0 to 1 parsec; J-2 is 0 to 2 parsecs; and so forth.

Though the parsec is highly Terrocentric. The fact that the maximum distance a jump-1 drive can propel a starship is a parsec has to be a coincidence, and the two distances are unlikely to be completely identical. Close enough for daily speech (and game rules ), yes, but not identical.


Hans

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Though the parsec is highly Terrocentric. The fact that the maximum distance a jump-1 drive can propel a starship is a parsec has to be a coincidence, and the two distances are unlikely to be completely identical. Close enough for daily speech (and game rules ), yes, but not identical.

Earth to Hans ... Traveller is a game, not an alternate reality ... that is all.

 

[rancke]

Earth to Hans ... Traveller is a game, not an alternate reality ... that is all.

Traveller is a game set in an alternate reality. That's what makes it so fascinating. If I just wanted to play a game with fixed and limited rules in a fixed and limited game world, I'd play a boardgame. But I want to play a roleplaying game. And the role you play in a Traveller game is someone who lives in an alternate universe.

EDIT: So tell Earth I'll get back to it, but not to wait up.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Third, it is obvious from canon that the distance travelled during a misjump is a minimum of 1 parsec (~3.262 ly), and a maximum of 36 parsecs (117 ly). Of course, and as always, results may vary IYTU.

Actually, a misjump sends you 1-36 Hexes, NOT parsecs. Aramis did an excellent job of defining hexes, below.

I messed up below (yes, I do know the definition of a parsec as a multiple of an A.U.)

 

[nats]

Well as far as I know you have always thrown one dice to determine direction and one dice to determine distance for a misjump in hexes, which is clearly stated in Book 2. And you throw one dice to determine time in weeks spent in the jump. You can force a misjump but you will still do the above either way. I dont know where you lot are getting all this jump 0 and partial jump distance from but its not in my rules.

Yes I suppose you could jump normally a partial distance in system or even no distance at all but why would you ever want to do that seeing as it would take you a week? Unless it was to avoid pursuers who would no doubt just wait around for a week for you to come back and wait around you known appearance point based your jump trajectory (which I presume would be relatively easy to figure out).

 

[mike wightman]

The jump drive is a more efficient means of travel if your destination in-system is more than a week away using your m-drive.

IIRC the terrans in the OTU actually invented their jump drive for getting around the solar system faster, it was only later they realised they could jump to other systems

 

[nats]

The jump drive is a more efficient means of travel if your destination in-system is more than a week away using your m-drive.

IIRC the terrans in the OTU actually invented their jump drive for getting around the solar system faster, it was only later they realised they could jump to other systems

Yes I can see that now after some looking on the internet it seems that Pluto is 42 days away from Earth at 1G and typical Binary system stars are around 1 to 5 billion km apart which would be 8-42 days at 1G.

 

[iron warrior]

They really only are useful for a few reasons:
1) You're going more than a few AU
2) you don't want the low-energy alpha that is 1PSL+ impact with the interplanetary medium.
3) you want to avoid pirates
4) you're using TNE, T4, or T5
4.1) TNE - fuel restrictions make even 1LM slower than jump.
4.2) T4/T5 1000D limit makes all deep system worlds outside the short-term reach of T-Plates.

Hmm, if the local star was a variable that occasionally put out bursts of hard radiation for prolonged periods a jump might be better than exposing your ship to the radiation for several days too.

 

[aramis]

Hmm, if the local star was a variable that occasionally put out bursts of hard radiation for prolonged periods a jump might be better than exposing your ship to the radiation for several days too.

The secondary of the low-V alpha is as much of a threat most of the time, but yeah.

As one exceeds 1 PSL, the energy of impacting the interplanetary medium (a 5 atoms per cubic centimeter, or 5000 per L or 5E6 per cubic meter) starts to get noticable
3E6m/s x 5E6 AMU/m= 1.5E13 AMU per sec
1.660538782E-27 gg to the AMU
roughly 1E-14kg/s at 3E6m/s roughly 5E-15 x 9E12= 4.5E-2
4.5 cJ per second... per square meter... not a whole lot, until you realize much of that is converted to radiation and heat...

Oh, and that's presuming 100% monoatomic hydrogen atoms... dust grains can be 1E-9 grams, and still count... giving 1E18x the energy... and the density can reach 100 particles per cc, for 20 times the energy. It adds up, since that is joules per second... and a single dust grain of half a millimeter of a 50th of a gram is about 10kJ...

 

[HG_B]

Oh, and that's presuming 100% monoatomic hydrogen atoms... dust grains can be 1E-9 grams, and still count... giving 1E18x the energy... and the density can reach 100 particles per cc, for 20 times the energy. It adds up, since that is joules per second... and a single dust grain of half a millimeter of a 50th of a gram is about 10kJ...

Not a problem in CT

 

[nats]

The secondary of the low-V alpha is as much of a threat most of the time, but yeah.

As one exceeds 1 PSL, the energy of impacting the interplanetary medium (a 5 atoms per cubic centimeter, or 5000 per L or 5E6 per cubic meter) starts to get noticable
3E6m/s x 5E6 AMU/m= 1.5E13 AMU per sec
1.660538782E-27 gg to the AMU
roughly 1E-14kg/s at 3E6m/s roughly 5E-15 x 9E12= 4.5E-2
4.5 cJ per second... per square meter... not a whole lot, until you realize much of that is converted to radiation and heat...

Oh, and that's presuming 100% monoatomic hydrogen atoms... dust grains can be 1E-9 grams, and still count... giving 1E18x the energy... and the density can reach 100 particles per cc, for 20 times the energy. It adds up, since that is joules per second... and a single dust grain of half a millimeter of a 50th of a gram is about 10kJ...

What the hell are you going on about? Why on earth would anyone what to know this stuff, its just an RPG game. And space dust hasnt affected Voyager or Pioneer has it - so I think you are talking rubbish. IMO of course.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

What the hell are you going on about? Why on earth would anyone what to know this stuff, its just an RPG game. And space dust hasnt affected Voyager or Pioneer has it - so I think you are talking rubbish. IMO of course.

Will is talking about the impact of space dust at 1% of light speed, and as some people who play Traveller like a Hard Sci-fi RPG this type of discussion can add to the realisim that players experiance.

Voyager and Pioneer haven't got anywhere near 1% of light speed, by orders of magnitude, so your comparison is flawed, and thus your conclusion is likely flawed as well.

If this discussion is of no interrest to you for your and your players RPG experiance then please just simply ignore it. That IMO is preferable to you being rude.

Best regards,

Ewan