The nobles of Cognarth

[rancke]

Here's a little thought experiment born of some musings I've done about how important Imperial nobles would be compared to the kind of nobles that we Earthlings tend to think of when we think of nobles (Briefly: IMO even an Imprial baron would be more important that planetary royalty.)

But that's not what I want to discuss today.

Imaging a world that very, very closely resembles Earth anno 2010, except that it is part of the Classic Era Imperium. I call it Cognarth (a contraction of 'cognate Earth'). The history may or may not differ a lot from our own, but there's an Old World continental mass and a New World continental mass; there's a cognate US run by a cognate President Obama, with a cognate Canada to the north and a cognate Mexico to the south, etc. etc.

Cognarth was contacted by the Imperium a few years ago (enough time for the necessary negotiations but not enough time for contact with the Imperium to change conditions on Cognarth... yet). The benefits of joining the Imperium was enough to get every sovereign country to join up[*].

[*] This bit may require a goodly dollop of WSD, but please suspend any disbelief you may have.​

Tomorrow there's going to be a ceremony celebrating Cognarth joining the Imperium. Present is a high-ranking member of the Imperial family (maybe even the Emperor himself) and the noble that he is going to appoint as Count of Cognarth (an outsider -- not one from Cognarth). And in his pocket is a sheaf of noble patents that he intends to hand out to The Powers That Be on Cognarth. Specifically, six marquisates and 18 baronies (plus 50 baronetcies and a lot of knighthoods -- ~150 major knighthoods, ~500 lesser knighthoods, ~1500 lesser still, etc. I don't know how far that would go, but as I don't expect anyone to get as far as through the baronetcies, it's moot).

My question is this: Who gets those noble titles? (Feel free to drop the 'cognate' from 'cognate <name>'; we'll take that as read.) Who would you put on the list? Who would you leave off? The number of peerages is fixed, but you can make any or all of them lifetime peerages, if you like.


Hans

 

[boomslang]

Who would you put on the list? Who would you leave off? The number of peerages is fixed, but you can make any or all of them lifetime peerages, if you like.

Take Forbes' list of the wealthiest international industrialists/financiers, add a few token other-source billionaires like Bill Gates and Rupert Murdoch who have media influence, and the offworld Imperial interests are fully served.

We need to always bear in mind that the local politics of Balkanized worlds are not important to the rest of the universe, so long as the markets are open and the resources move. The 3I is a trading and defense alliance established first and foremost to insure the economic and political security of its ruling families; the persons of Imperial interest are those who wield the most economic capital. Social, cultural, and political capital bigwigs are nothing more than "local color"; throw them the lesser knighthoods for the PR value only.

 

[Icosahedron]

Ok, trying to keep my toes on the right side of the line...

Boomslang puts forward a very 'Western Capitalist' viewpoint there, IMO.

Yes 'New Continent' businessmen will feature strongly, but there are some nations on such a balkanised world who will buy a 'fair share' of places at the table by other means - including global war if necessary. I can't imagine leaders of the 'other' political persuasion handing 'their' places to corporate heads, nor can I see any 'renegade nuclear' nations taking a back seat when galactic power and influence is being handed out. The same goes for religious leaders, even of the smallest nations, if their influence extends significantly beyond their borders. There will be many nations whose power and influence does not rest with company directors.

Contact with a balkanised world would be an extremely delicate matter, and I sincerely doubt if it could be achieved without significant bloodshed. The stakes are too high for any nation to sit back and watch someone else get the gravy. Wars would be fought for those peerages - wars that would make all previous wars look like petty territorial squabbles. Nothing would be more likely to bring about Armageddon than Contact with a powerful ET.

IMO.

 

[abomination]

Since the sovreign counties signed up it can be assumed that thy will have managed to protect their own interests. The easiest way would therefore for the titles to be distributed to counties (lots of arguing in the UN) & let them decide who gets them by whatever means they fancy.

I suspect that the five permanent members of the UN security council would consider marquisates theirs, and then lots of horse trading among the wealthier nations would follow for the remaining titles.

So in the UK Brenda would add another title then defer that power to her democratically elected representative David Cameron. And the US could elect Marquis Obama.

So you would end up with something like:

Marquis Hu Jintao (China)
Marquis Barak Obama (USA)
Marquis Elisabeth Windsor (UK & NI)
Marquis Dmitry Medvedev (Russian Fed)
Marquis Nicolas Sarkozy (France)
Marquis Akihito (Japan)

Baronies to the remaining G20 countries:
South Africa, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, South korea, India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, EU, Germany, Italy, Australia.

Plus maybe Sweden, somewhere in Africa possibly Egypt, Spain & somewhere not in Europe like New Zealand.

 

[Dragoner]

The US has laws against accepting titles of nobility from a foreign power. I would think as well, that if the titles came up for grabs, a civil war would break out. If the wealthy tried to grab them, why not the military?

 

[abomination]

The US has laws against accepting titles of nobility from a foreign power. I would think as well, that if the titles came up for grabs, a civil war would break out. If the wealthy tried to grab them, why not the military?

Lawyers might argue that foreign isn't the same as extra terrestrial.

 

[Dragoner]

What is keeping the US from taking 90% of the titles then? This is the end game of nations, fight now or fall forever.

 

[aramis]

The US has laws against accepting titles of nobility from a foreign power. I would think as well, that if the titles came up for grabs, a civil war would break out. If the wealthy tried to grab them, why not the military?

Such titles can be accepted, if one has Congress' permission.

 

[Dragoner]

Such titles can be accepted, if one has Congress' permission.

If such titles came with ultimate power however...

 

[abomination]

What is keeping the US from taking 90% of the titles then? This is the end game of nations, fight now or fall forever.

The US just isn't that stong, certainly not economically. Besides the Imperium is handing out the titles. They have an interest in maintaining peace and the status quo to some degree. Anybody who starts shooting in order to get more titles isn't likely to make themselves popular with the count & may find some very grumpy Imperial marines on their doorstep.

 

[abomination]

Remember any such war would be nuke free. IIRC the Imperium doesn't alow planetary govenments to have them .

 

[Dragoner]

The US just isn't that stong, certainly not economically. Besides the Imperium is handing out the titles. They have an interest in maintaining peace and the status quo to some degree. Anybody who starts shooting in order to get more titles isn't likely to make themselves popular with the count & may find some very grumpy Imperial marines on their doorstep.

One could add NATO to the US, so who would stand against the US/NATO? The sad part of this scenario is that no matter how you look at it, the developing world basically becomes enslaved to the West. The Imperium attacking the wealthiest and most powerful nations on the planet, would lead to an automatic major war where, those nations that took help from the 3I would be traitors. Basically a Lose-Lose scenario for the 3I.

 

[abomination]

One could add NATO to the US, so who would stand against the US/NATO? The sad part of this scenario is that no matter how you look at it, the developing world basically becomes enslaved to the West. The Imperium attacking the wealthiest and most powerful nations on the planet, would lead to an automatic major war where, those nations that took help from the 3I would be traitors. Basically a Lose-Lose scenario for the 3I.

Hmm, I don't know that Nato would do that. The EU countries may decide they want more than the US. After all they have a bigger ecoonomy. The Chinese would want a big slice of the pie and they'd definatly fight for it.

But you're right the little countries would quite literally get royally screwed. Still no change there then.

 

[Dragoner]

Hmm, I don't know that Nato would do that. The EU countries may decide they want more than the US. After all they have a bigger ecoonomy. The Chinese would want a big slice of the pie and they'd definatly fight for it.

The alliance has held for as long as it has, I don't see why it would be discontinued. It is what happens with Russia and China that is the big question, Japan probably follows the west.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

So in the UK Brenda would add another title then defer that power to her democratically elected representative David Cameron.

Brenda? Do you mean Liz?

And the US could elect Marquis Obama.

So you would end up with something like:

Marquis Hu Jintao (China)
Marquis Barak Obama (USA)
Marquis Elisabeth Windsor (UK & NI)
Marquis Dmitry Medvedev (Russian Fed)
Marquis Nicolas Sarkozy (France)
Marquis Akihito (Japan)

Marquis Windsor would be a direct representative for all the other Commenwealth Contries where she is head of state as well, as well as make some represention for those Commenwealth Contries where she isn't (as head of the Commenwealth).

Regards,

Ewan

 

[mike wightman]

I hope that along with patents of nobility these new Imperial lackeys are also going to be gifted with IM and IN assets - 'cos my hypothetical Cognarth self for one would be setting up a resistance cell.

What happens when the en-nobled democratically elected world leaders come to the end of their term of office in their country? Does the Imperial title stay with them or pass to their elected successor?

Or is democracy dead?

Aren't there laws against such things in a lot of these hypothetical countries?

 

[Captain Midnight]

There is precedent for titles being valid for a limited duration -- GT Nobles, p. 81, talks about how Vegans often cycle through positions of responsibility faster than would be at all practical for the Emperor to issue letters patent. Instead, the Emperor gives the Duke of Muan Gwi a limited Imperial Warrant, expressly for the purpose of giving out titles as needed. Those titles don't carry fiefs, and they are not hereditary. Something like this could be adapted for a volatile political situation. I'd expect it to depend on something more than "I won the last election", but something less than "Eight generations in Imperial service".

I never saw Imperial membership as a huge deal, especially if a world could manage to negotiate a reasonable treaty. You can't have WMD, you can't have slaves, and you don't get much of a say on your foreign policy. However, you get a break on tariffs when dealing with Imperial worlds, and you get the benefits of having a bunch of high-tech worlds ready to assist in your defense if you need it. Mostly, you're left alone to manage your own internal affairs as you see fit. Your world does owe some additional taxes, but you get trade benefits as compensation.

If there is a balkanized world government, with some elements changing fairly regularly, it wouldn't fit well with the noble hierarchy, unless that was a fairly loose system, with flexibility to handle odd situations. Given the original parameters (which I think would be a poor fit, but that's beside the point...), I'd think that most national politicians would be left as part of the local governmental structure. Instead, look for private individuals, or ones who belong to transnational groups -- the president or directors of the World Bank / IMF, or something like that. Remember that there are other carrots to be dangled besides patents of nobility. There are shares of stock, or promises of technical assistance, or plum contracts to be had; I'm sure you can come up with other things after a little thought.

 

[Captain Midnight]

After thinking about this for a few days, I've actually come to a somewhat unusual point of view. I don't think that many people strongly associated with any particular nation would be given significant noble titles.

Here's why -- instead of presenting the population of "Cognarth" with a "fait accompli" along the lines of "The Chinese rule you, and the Imperium rules the Chinese", which seems likely to provoke significant unrest no matter *what* group is chosen to receive a favored position, I think titles would be given out with an eye toward establishing a supranational elite. Cognarth isn't a world with one pre-eminent grouping and a collection of other powers smaller by an order of magnitude. There is no obvious solution; therefore, one must be created. It will take time, but full Imperial integration ought to be expected to take many years, or even generations.

The people you're going to see given titles will be those who can form an overall governing class. That might be officials in various international organizations, or people who have no strong ties to the current system, or people who (for whatever reason) are early adopters of "loyalty to the Imperial idea". I don't know who those folks might be; they won't get huge amounts of publicity in our society today. However, there are also people who can be induced to get on board... because their livelihood will disappear once the offworld presence makes itself fully felt.

If Imperial megacorps will start selling grav vehicles soon, what role is there for the United Auto Workers?

 

[rancke]

The Imperium has lots of balkanized worlds. The whole point of a balkanized world is that it doesn't have a central world government. I've always assumed that individual countries on balkanized worlds join the Imperium as individual countries. So the Imperium wouldn't be trying to perform any social engineering aimed at creating a world government.

Be that as it may, I had hoped to head off that sort of speculation by asking for suspension of disbelief when it came to just how the squabbling nations of Cognarth all came to join up simultaneously. Maybe they were all afraid of getting left out of the economic bonanza if their neighbors joined and they didn't. Maybe one of the benefits of membership was not getting bombarded with ortillery ordnance. Take your pick. What I was trying for was a discussion of which people the Imperial nobility would consider worthy of becoming their peers.


Hans

 

[Fovean]

What I was trying for was a discussion of which people the Imperial nobility would consider worthy of becoming their peers.
Hans

Then the basis would seem to be at first the highest-level diplomats of the strongest governments, someone like the American Richard Holbrooke; they would most likely be the first to really interact with the Imperials anyway. And it would have to be an honor that stays with the office, not the individual.

After that I would think it would move to the CEOs of multi-nationals since commerce is the point of the Imperium. Depending on the mood of your Cognarth setting it could be Lee Iacoca or it could be Egon Musk. Or as proposed up-thread, the leaders of orgs like the IMF or World Bank. Again, staying with the office, not the person.

If there's anything left, they would almost have to be given to folk heroes like Al Gore or Muhammad Yunus, people who can 'change the world' as it were. This is where hereditary patents would start to come into play.

It seems to me that by the time the Imperium arrives at Cognarth it will be well-versed in balkanized worlds and not interested in term-limited politicians or institutions. They will place the noble patents with the offices they see as most likely to help create a healthy, safe and loyal link on an interstellar trade route, and give hereditary titles to those individuals they believe will support that idea.

EDIT - just had a thought, what if the most able governments/institutions of Cognarth are anti-Imperial? And only the small/weak/non-influential wanted membership?