TL equipment changes in the 3I?

[Garyius2003]

In our world equipment has stayed close to the same price during our recent TL upgrades (still no grav plates, darn it).

A portable communicator has been about the same price but has greatly increased in features. I now own one that has a GPS/navg feature, access to the net, still camera and video, music player...

But is hasn't gotten much smaller. No implanted gear, and it still is a little too large for our current clothing pockets.

Is that what happens in the 3I? Do my PRIS goggles from TL10 get smaller and lighter at TL15, or do they turn into a 'do everything' device that is about the same size? What about cheaper?

Same basic idea, trucks and farm tractors are about the same size as they were in the 60s, they just do a lot more. Military rifles are about the same size and weight they were in 1965, they just shoot better overall, and much better at distance and in the dark.

 

[whartung]

A lot of this is simple ergonomics.

Consider music players, like the iPod Shuffle or iPod Nano. They get as small as practical, but human fingers are only so big.

Other things like cell phones, a bulk of these devices are batteries. The Motorola Razr was one of the smaller phones, but the smart phone have got larger. Both display size and battery life come in to play here.

But there are some smaller phones, like the short lived Microsoft Kin or the new WebOS models.

Then consider something like a home DVD player. Component size is largely based on fitting right in the cabinet. We've seen how small a DVD player CAN be, but it just doesn't fit well on the shelf. So you get a big, empty box that looks nice instead.

 

[aramis]

My BR/DVD player is just under 1" thick, 18" wide, 12" deep. Much of that is to accomodate the wiring patch panel on the back (10" wide), and the access and data panel on the front.

 

[McPerth]

In Mercenary (B4), page 43, tells that hardware prices (it talks about military hardware in this cse, but I guess can be used too for other things) get lower about 5-15% per TL above the minimal necessary to build it. So, if you try to buy an ACR (TL 10) in Efate (TL 13), price should be expected to be about 30% less than in Regina (TL 10).

 

[rancke]

In Mercenary (B4), page 43, tells that hardware prices (it talks about military hardware in this cse, but I guess can be used too for other things) get lower about 5-15% per TL above the minimal necessary to build it. So, if you try to buy an ACR (TL 10) in Efate (TL 13), price should be expected to be about 30% less than in Regina (TL 10).

(Regina is TL12).

This runs up against the Law of the One Price. If Efate sells ACRs for 70% of what a Reginan manufacturer can sell them for, enterprising merchants will buy them on Efate and sell them on Regina for 70%+transportation costs.


Hans

 

[Jame]

(Regina is TL12).

This runs up against the Law of the One Price. If Efate sells ACRs for 70% of what a Reginan manufacturer can sell them for, enterprising merchants will buy them on Efate and sell them on Regina for 70%+transportation costs.


Hans

Supp3 lists it as TL10 (I prefer Regina to be TL12 myself - better tech for a better subsector capital and victory!!!).

 

[rancke]

Supp3 lists it as TL10 (I prefer Regina to be TL12 myself - better tech for a better subsector capital and victory!!!).

Supplement 3 has been superseded, as have any other early canon source that has Regina's tech level at 10.

(12 is bad enough for a world with Regina's history of being the most important world for many parsecs around. )

Incidentally, Regina's shipyards are capable of building ships with jump-4 drives.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Incidentally, Regina's shipyards are capable of building ships with jump-4 drives.

Yep, in up to 400tons of hull at TL 10 (up to 600tons at TL 12) I'm sure you know I'm talking Book2 build rules

And of course there is no reason to presume that importance equates to or requires high TL. Nor that Regina can't build ships above it's native TL by importing assemblies.

 

[rancke]

Yep, in up to 400tons of hull at TL 10 (up to 600tons at TL 12) I'm sure you know I'm talking Book2 build rules

Which means you're talking rules that are incompatible with the setting as it later evolved[*]. Which I've never understood the reason for doing.

And of course there is no reason to presume that importance equates to or requires high TL. Nor that Regina can't build ships above it's native TL by importing assemblies.

No? I have to disagree with you there. I think there's every reason to assume a strong correlation between political importance and economic advantage and a strong correlation between economic advantage and technological advancement.

I also think that there is every reason to believe that any ship built on Regina by importing subcomponents and assembling them would be more expensive than buying a similar ship from a world at the requisite tech level. So while the demonstrated ability to build jump-4 ships doesn't prove that Regina's Space TL is at least 13, it is strong evidence to that effect.

(Of course, if you go with the canonical rule that forbids the manufacture of a ship of higher TL than the manufacturing world, there IS a reason to believe Regina can't import sub-components and assemble them, but as I believe that that rule is a simplification of "reality", I'm not going to belabor the point ).

[*] EDIT: Incidentally, if you do go by Book 2 rules, Regina needs a TL of 15 to be able to build jump-4 1200T ships. 1200T hulls function as 2000T hulls for purposes of selecting jump drives, so you need a Type Y drive to provide it with jump-4, and Type Y drives require TL15 to build. ​

Hans

 

[Dragoner]

(Regina is TL12).

This runs up against the Law of the One Price. If Efate sells ACRs for 70% of what a Reginan manufacturer can sell them for, enterprising merchants will buy them on Efate and sell them on Regina for 70%+transportation costs.


Hans

Why wouldn't Regina manufacturers just set up their factory on Efate? Then the 30% -shipping goes on to their profit margin.

 

[McPerth]

(Regina is TL12).

This depends. On CT (1007-15) Regina is TL 10. It seems between 1015 and 1020 ot upgraded its TL to 12 (having your leader proclaimed Domain Archiduke seems to have its privileges...)

Supplement 3 has been superseded, as have any other early canon source that has Regina's tech level at 10.

(12 is bad enough for a world with Regina's history of being the most important world for many parsecs around. )

Instead of thinking it has been superseded, I prefer to think it has evolutioned on those years, as not only Sup3 gives Regina as TL 10 (Spinward Marches Campaign, FFW, TNS UPP entries in JTASs...)

Incidentally, Regina's shipyards are capable of building ships with jump-4 drives.

I guess you talk about the Kinunirs. Following the rules, they cannot i any way be built in Regina (though Kinunir Adventure talks they are). As both are canon, you can take it as you want...

Not only Kinunirs need jump 4 (TL13), but also computer 7 (TL13 too) and Black Globe (TL15) and TL 15 PP. In HG (page 52) Kinunir is shown as TL 15 Starship, so it couldn't be built in Regina in any way, as rules state.

As I cannot explain this canon paradox, I hope someone can...

 

[mike wightman]

Easy to explain - in CT the ship building TL paradigm is different to HG.

A TL10 planet can build lettered drives which can easily give up to jump 4 performance for certain hull sizes.

 

[mike wightman]

Oh, and I personally stick with Regina being TL10 during the FFW since I don't want to take a ballpoint pen to my game

I also think that given the typos in SMC that Regina's TL rise was unintentional but that it stuck.

Makes sense that investment and TL increase would come after Norris wins the FFW and is proclaimed Archduke

 

[mike wightman]

Yep, in up to 400tons of hull at TL 10 (up to 600tons at TL 12) I'm sure you know I'm talking Book2 build rules

And of course there is no reason to presume that importance equates to or requires high TL. Nor that Regina can't build ships above it's native TL by importing assemblies.

There is a rule buried somewhere that allows components to be bought offworld and then assembled.
It could be HG1 or TCS.

Can't check 'til I get home but it's definitely somewhere.

 

[rancke]

This depends. On CT (1007-15) Regina is TL 10. It seems between 1015 and 1020 ot upgraded its TL to 12 (having your leader proclaimed Domain Archiduke seems to have its privileges...)

Not so. Originally (1977-198?), Regina was said to be TL 10. At some point it was realized that this was too low and it was retconned to TL12. (Or perhaps it was accidentally changed to TL12 and Marc Miller decided that worked better.) Personally, I believe in the deliberate change. Spinward Marches Campaign had a number of UWP changes, mostly star types, and it lists Regina as being TL12.

Be that as it may, MGT:The Spinward Marches lists Regina as being TL12 in 1105.

Instead of thinking it has been superseded, I prefer to think it has evolutioned on those years, as not only Sup3 gives Regina as TL 10 (Spinward Marches Campaign, FFW, TNS UPP entries in JTASs...)

I really prefer to think that Regina didn't jump two tech levels in four years. Ticking over from fully mature TL X to early TL X+1 is one thing. Shooting through one entire tech level in four years is quite another. (Also, I prefer to think that a world as prominent as Regina never were TL 10.)

I guess you talk about the Kinunirs. Following the rules, they cannot in any way be built in Regina (though Kinunir Adventure talks they are). As both are canon, you can take it as you want...

As both are canon, either one or the other is wrong for any specific Traveller Universe. We can take what we want for our own TUs, but for the Official Traveller Universe either one or the other must be wrong.

Not only Kinunirs need jump 4 (TL13), but also computer 7 (TL13 too) and Black Globe (TL15) and TL 15 PP. In HG (page 52) Kinunir is shown as TL 15 Starship, so it couldn't be built in Regina in any way, as rules state.


As I cannot explain this canon paradox, I hope someone can...

Here's an explanation: Regina has a general tech level of 12, but a space tech level of 13. Kinunirs are TL13, designed as test beds for two experi8mental devices, an AI computer and a black globe. Those two components were delivered to the various shipyards and installed.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I also think that given the typos in SMC that Regina's TL rise was unintentional but that it stuck.

You may or may not be right, but the salient point is that it stuck.

Makes sense that investment and TL increase would come after Norris wins the FFW and is proclaimed Archduke

Norris proclaimed himself Archduke in 1117 and moved to Mora to assume the reins of government. Regina doesn't really come into the action at all, and now you're talking about a two tech level jump in zero years (Regency Sourcebook has Regina's TL at 12 in 1117).


Hans

 

[McPerth]

No? I have to disagree with you there. I think there's every reason to assume a strong correlation between political importance and economic advantage and a strong correlation between economic advantage and technological advancement.

It's quite rational to think the strongest economically should be the capital, as it's probably also the strongest politically. If som the logical capital for the subsector would be Efate, with its larger population and higer TL.

But this logics fail sometimes for historical/political reasons. Why isn't New Orleans Louisinana's capital? or Miami Florida's? (BTW: in this side of the Atlantic, too many people believe they are)

Spinward Marches Campaign had a number of UWP changes, mostly star types, and it lists Regina as being TL12.

You're right here, sorry for my mistake. I spoke from memory. Althugh, the other sources I cited were correct, and gave Regina TL 10 at FFW start. Is not fully unbelievable (though neither easy to expect) a two TLs raise in 3 years of war (mostly becoming one of the war focus for a 5 TL higher fleet). After all, in 5 years of war (WWII), earth TL raised quite a lot... And witout outside help...

I really prefer to think that Regina didn't jump two tech levels in four years. Ticking over from fully mature TL X to early TL X+1 is one thing. Shooting through one entire tech level in four years is quite another. (Also, I prefer to think that a world as prominent as Regina never were TL 10.)

But that's not what canon says...

As both are canon, either one or the other is wrong for any specific Traveller Universe. We can take what we want for our own TUs, but for the Official Traveller Universe either one or the other must be wrong.

And that's the canon paradox.

Here's an explanation: Regina has a general tech level of 12, but a space tech level of 13. Kinunirs are TL13, designed as test beds for two experi8mental devices, an AI computer and a black globe. Those two components were delivered to the various shipyards and installed.

It's plausible (if you accept Regina as TL 12 when they are built, as IIRC that was before FFW) that its space and computer TL have raised 13 (or even 14). As I already said in another thread (Colonial Fleets, The Fleet forum, entry 17, and discussing this same subject also with you BTW), World Builders Book (MT) allows specific TLs to be a little higher than High Common, but hardware of this higher TL is 'a handful of prototypes of dubious reliability'. Perhaps that is why the TL 13 (Rating 7) computer of one of the Kinunirs so catastrofically failed...

Norris proclaimed himself Archduke in 1117 and moved to Mora to assume the reins of government. Regina doesn't really come into the action at all, and now you're talking about a two tech level jump in three years.

But that doesn't mean he forgot his homeworld and his people...

History is full of statesmen that favored their native city/province even after they've moved to the capital...

 

[rancke]

It's quite rational to think the strongest economically should be the capital, as it's probably also the strongest politically. If som the logical capital for the subsector would be Efate, with its larger population and higher TL.

But this logics fail sometimes for historical/political reasons. Why isn't New Orleans Louisinana's capital? or Miami Florida's? (BTW: in this side of the Atlantic, too many people believe they are)

Which is why it's not inconceivable that Efate has overtaken Regina in technological development. After all, the difference between TL12 (borderline 13) and TL13 isn't that big. But Regina has been the most important world in the subsector since 250 at the latest. The Regina Cluster is named after it. The Regina subsector is named after it. The Duchy of Regina is named after it. The subsector duke resides on it. That's not only a serious political advantage in itself, there's probably a good reason why Regina became the most important world in the region in the first place.

You're right here, sorry for my mistake. I spoke from memory. Although, the other sources I cited were correct, and gave Regina TL 10 at FFW start.

No one is disputing that. That's why I refer to the change as a retcon.

Is not fully unbelievable (though neither easy to expect) a two TLs raise in 3 years of war (mostly becoming one of the war focus for a 5 TL higher fleet). After all, in 5 years of war (WWII), earth TL raised quite a lot... And witout outside help...

But Regina was able to build jump-4 ships back before the 4FW.

But that's not what canon says...

It is what the most recent canon says. Check MGT:The Spinward Marches, p. 66-68.

And that's the canon paradox.

No more a paradox than any two historical RPGs dealing with the same period making conflicting claims. One or the other is wrong. (or, of course, both, but let's not go there).

It's plausible (if you accept Regina as TL 12 when they are built, as IIRC that was before FFW) that its space and computer TL have raised 13 (or even 14). As I already said in another thread (Colonial Fleets, The Fleet forum, entry 17, and discussing this same subject also with you BTW), World Builders Book (MT) allows specific TLs to be a little higher than High Common, but hardware of this higher TL is 'a handful of prototypes of dubious reliability'.

Yeah, I took a pause from that discussion to ponder that. I'd never noticed that bit about advanced tech levels being limited to a handful of prototypes. I've always assumed that a world could be advanced in one or two technological field and not the rest. And while I can't dispute that your reference says what it says, I really don't see why not. The alternative is to list a world that is (for example) TL12 in all fields except one that is at TL13 as a TL13 world with ten of its 11 fields at one level below its High Common TL. And that would, IMO, be absurd. Surely the High Common TL of a world is the one a majority of its technology is at.

But that doesn't mean he forgot his homeworld and his people...

No, but it means the canonocal timeline doesn't leave him time to do anything about it (Assuming for purposes of argument that he would have been able to do anything of the sort).


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Which is why it's not inconceivable that Efate has overtaken Regina in technological development. After all, the difference between TL12 (borderline 13) and TL13 isn't that big. But Regina has been the most important world in the subsector since 250 at the latest. The Regina Cluster is named after it. The Regina subsector is named after it. The Duchy of Regina is named after it. The subsector duke resides on it. That's not only a serious political advantage in itself, there's probably a good reason why Regina became the most important world in the region in the first place.

That's what I was saying (or at least trying to say), that the most important planet needn't to be the capital, as happens in cities in our Earth

(BTW: I hope no offense is taken by anyone from Baton Rouge or Tallahasse. Just trying to give examples. I could have given some Spanish examples too, but I guess US examples are more known by most of the people here)

But Regina was able to build jump-4 ships back before the 4FW.

And in that rules are twisted at least, as much canon as this is.

It's true the first Kinunirs in Regina where built in 1074-75. And the same Kinunir adventure gives Regina as TL 10 again in 1105...

It is what the most recent canon says. Check MGT:The Spinward Marches, p. 66-68.

I have no access to this book, so I trust your word.

No more a paradox than any two historical RPGs dealing with the same period making conflicting claims. One or the other is wrong. (or, of course, both, but let's not go there).

Most those cases are RPGs using different rules and slightly different settings, or at least different points of view. Traveller canon tries to be coherent with itself, though not always as successful as all we would like (but if it was, what would all us argue about? :devil

Yeah, I took a pause from that discussion to ponder that. I'd never noticed that bit about advanced tech levels being limited to a handful of prototypes. I've always assumed that a world could be advanced in one or two technological field and not the rest. And while I can't dispute that your reference says what it says, I really don't see why not. The alternative is to list a world that is (for example) TL12 in all fields except one that is at TL13 as a TL13 world with ten of its 11 fields at one level below its High Common TL. And that would, IMO, be absurd. Surely the High Common TL of a world is the one a majority of its technology is at.

WBB tells that about TLs higher than th High Common (the one given in UPP), as some can be lower. The reference I've given is about those novelity TL (that cannot be higher than High Comon x 1.2).

Anyway, even if we accept Regina is TL 12 and its space TL is 14, that doesn't explain its TL 15 PP nor its Black Globe. The Kinunir is listed as TL 15, so above the capability of Regina's shipyards, and yet canon says they were built there...

No, but it means the canonocal timeline doesn't leave him time to do anything about it (Assuming for purposes of argument that he would have been able to do anything of the sort).

True, if you think this upgrading begining when Norris becomes Archiduke. It may after 3 years of housing a large TL 15 fleet...

After all, The first reference (AFAIK) to TL 12 Regina is just after FFW, while references about it being TL 10 are before FFW. If so, Norris just helped to consolidate it.

PS: all references to Kinunir I make are about Spanish translation, that is what I own. While I trust the translators (I knew personally most of them) and I can vow they love Traveller and won't betray it, I cannot discard some minor changes were made.

 

[rancke]

That's what I was saying (or at least trying to say), that the most important planet needn't to be the capital, as happens in cities in our Earth.

But the point I've been trying to make is that Regina has been the most important world in the region for eight or more centuries.

And in that rules are twisted at least, as much canon as this is.

Yes, but rules are less canon than setting details. Rules are simplifications of reality. They turn "sub-components are rarely imported because that is more expensive" into "sub-components are never imported" in order to simplify things. They reduce the possibilities and ramifications of a richly complicated "reality" to a dull and boring simplicity. And that's not a bad thing as such, because otherwise we wouldn't be able to reduce things to a few simple lines of text and die rolls. But let's never forget that "reality" is much more complicated.

It's true the first Kinunirs in Regina where built in 1074-75. And the same Kinunir adventure gives Regina as TL 10 again in 1105...

Yes, but the retcon didn't resolve the discrepancy by saying that the Kinunir wasn't built on TL10 Regina, it resolved it by saying that it was built on TL12 Regina.

WBB tells that about TLs higher than th High Common (the one given in UPP), as some can be lower. The reference I've given is about those novelity TL (that cannot be higher than High Comon x 1.2).

Yes, I know. See my previous statement for the reply to this.

Anyway, even if we accept Regina is TL 12 and its space TL is 14, that doesn't explain its TL 15 PP nor its Black Globe. The Kinunir is listed as TL 15, so above the capability of Regina's shipyards, and yet canon says they were built there...

I'm suggesting that Regina's space TL is 13 and that its PP is TL13 and its black globe (and computer) are experimental devices delivered to the various shipyards from Imperial Navy laboratories.

True, if you think this upgrading begining when Norris becomes Archiduke. It may after 3 years of housing a large TL 15 fleet...

But it didn't, because Regina was already TL 12 in 1105.

After all, The first reference (AFAIK) to TL 12 Regina is just after FFW, while references about it being TL 10 are before FFW. If so, Norris just helped to consolidate it.

If so, Norris didn't have anything at all to do with it. But since Regina was already TL12 back in 1105 (and before), the question is moot. TPTB could have chosen to explain the change by saying that Regina was TL10 in 1107 and jumped two TLs in four years, but as it happens, they chose instead to retcon Regina's tech level in 1107 (and before) to TL12. I don't quite see the wiggle room here. No matter how many times pre-1985 canon material is referenced, the retcon remains.


Hans