TL equipment changes in the 3I?

[E.D.Quibell]

Remember Sup 3 is explained as "old data" in A0... (which carries the same data set for the most part).

PC's are sent to do a revision survey in A0... in 1101 or so.

Therefore, it's over 40 years, not 2.

Not even that. The Second Survey took 70 years to compile and Regina would likely be one of the first to be surveyed. This could mean that Regina is TL10 in 995 giving it 100 years to upgrade it's TL to 12.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[McPerth]

But it's a TL7 world within a TL15 empire - so yes importing the gear makes sense.

I would personally reinstate the rule from HG 1.

I'm not sure it was overwritten, just ommited

So, what keeps it at TL7?

In most cases I guess it's not only hardware what is TL 7 in this world, but also the techinicians' expertise and productoin capability, and I'm not so sure they have the machinery to work TL 10 matherials nor miniaturized hardware...

And, in any case, probably would be beter to import from a higer TL world, as it will not have to be custoum manufactured with imported tech and personnel, resulteing probably cheaper and more raliable.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Not quite.

The Imperium is TL15 and that TL15 database is accessible. A world may only be only TL10 but it can obtain TL15 designs etc. because the infrastructure and knowledge base is understood.

The Imperium would struggle to assemble a TL16 warship from recovered Darrian tech, TL17 would be almost impossible and don't even think about TL18.

While I agree with your point, the knowledge being available to lower TL worlds, however your TL16 and TL17 stuff is incorrect I believe. There are a number of TL16 systems in the Imperium pre rebellion, as well as the Darrians, and the ocasional TL17. It's likley that Imperial resurch stations are pushing at the boundires of TL18 due to the knowledge base provided by those systems at TL16 and 17.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

So, what keeps it at TL7?

Good Question.

 

[McPerth]

Not quite.

The Imperium is TL15 and that TL15 database is accessible. A world may only be only TL10 but it can obtain TL15 designs etc. because the infrastructure and knowledge base is understood.

The Imperium would struggle to assemble a TL16 warship from recovered Darrian tech, TL17 would be almost impossible and don't even think about TL18.

I'm not so sure that database will be os decisive. People in a TL 7 world may know there exists TL 15, and maybe some schoolars (most of them trained offplanet) can even understand it, but I don't believe the possibility of working with materials so higer TL.

About TL 16-17, as in MT there are some planets at TL 16, and all the adventure in Rebelion book is about recovering components for an experimental TL 17 system, so it's assumible cutting edge tech in imperium is at least TL 17.

In fact, acording World Builders Book, a TL 15 planet may have even some fields at TL 18, and a TL 16 could theroretically achieve TL 19 in some fields. Even so, I personaly believe those TL 16 planets are just achieving this TL, and so may not be too much advanced in any field (I'd keep the maximum at occasional TL 18 as if TL 15 to reflect that...)

 

[mike wightman]

All those TL16+ worlds are a DGP invention - bin them. Cutting edge Imperial research is TL16-17.

Also Darrian doesn't really have a TL of 16 - it's another of those strange things in the OTU when is a TL16 world not a TL16 world

 

[mike wightman]

While I agree with your point, the knowledge being available to lower TL worlds, however your TL16 and TL17 stuff is incorrect I believe. There are a number of TL16 systems in the Imperium pre rebellion, as well as the Darrians, and the ocasional TL17. It's likley that Imperial resurch stations are pushing at the boundires of TL18 due to the knowledge base provided by those systems at TL16 and 17.

Best regards,

Ewan

DGP is responsible for the TL inflation of MT - Darrian isn't really TL16 - and there is only 1 TL17 world within the Imperium during the MT era and that is interdicted.

 

[rancke]

It can import them from Efate

Or from any other world in the Imperium. But if its TL was only 10 it wouldn't be able to install anything of TL 14 and higher. The limit of what its shipyards can build for themselves is Regina's tech level. The limit for what they can install is Regina's tech level plus three.That seems reasonable enough. Shipyards just don't have the expertise to handle technology that is too far in advance of what they're used to handle.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

I'm not so sure that database will be os decisive. People in a TL 7 world may know there exists TL 15, and maybe some schoolars (most of them trained offplanet) can even understand it, but I don't believe the possibility of working with materials so higer TL.

TL15 humans aren't any more intelligent than TL7 humans, anymore than TL7 humans are more intelligent than TL1 humans.

I agree that they may not have the machinery and tools - so import them too

About TL 16-17, as in MT there are some planets at TL 16, and all the adventure in Rebelion book is about recovering components for an experimental TL 17 system, so it's assumible cutting edge tech in imperium is at least TL 17.

MT was written by DGP and I sometimes wish someone had put a bit of a brake on their TL inflation of the Imperium.
I don't see a problem with Imperial research stations pushing the boundaries all the way to TL18.

In fact, acording World Builders Book, a TL 15 planet may have even some fields at TL 18, and a TL 16 could theroretically achieve TL 19 in some fields. Even so, I personaly believe those TL 16 planets are just achieving this TL, and so may not be too much advanced in any field (I'd keep the maximum at occasional TL 18 as if TL 15 to reflect that...)

In MT there is at least one Imperial world on the cusp of TL17, and there are so many high pop TL16 worlds in Massila that it should be rated as TL16.

Like I said - DGP inflated the Imperial TL.

 

[mike wightman]

Or from any other world in the Imperium. But if its TL was only 10 it wouldn't be able to install anything of TL 14 and higher. The limit of what its shipyards can build for themselves is Regina's tech level. The limit for what they can install is Regina's tech level plus three.That seems reasonable enough. Shipyards just don't have the expertise to handle technology that is too far in advance of what they're used to handle.


Hans

Nope, the rule states you build up to 3 TLs higher and import stuff higher still. So no problem for Regina to import TL15 stuff and assemble it.

And those same shipyards can perform yearly maintenance on starships of higher TL than the world.

 

[rancke]

I agree that they may not have the machinery and tools - so import them too

Thereby inflating the cost of building them to no good purpose. Much more efficient to stick to building ships at the local tech level.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Nope, the rule states you build up to 3 TLs higher and import stuff higher still.

Not how I interpret it. And the HG2 rule that superseded it makes it clear that you're wrong.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

There is no superseding rule - it just wasn't mentioned that you can import stuff.

 

[mike wightman]

Thereby inflating the cost of building them to no good purpose. Much more efficient to stick to building ships at the local tech level.


Hans

Provides local jobs for local people - often very politically expedient.

After all governments subsidise loss making traders...

 

[McPerth]

TL15 humans aren't any more intelligent than TL7 humans, anymore than TL7 humans are more intelligent than TL1 humans.

Sure, but I'm not talking about intelligence, but about techical skill and knowledge background. I have my dubts you could teach Newton how to repair a F-14, and I'm not questioning his intelligence.

I agree that they may not have the machinery and tools - so import them too

And who works with them? and what to do when some one breaks down?

The only thing that would achieve is making yourself more dependant from the one who sold you this machinery, as you'll need its help for nearly anyone.

MT was written by DGP and I sometimes wish someone had put a bit of a brake on their TL inflation of the Imperium.

But it's canon anyway, isn't it?

In MT there is at least one Imperial world on the cusp of TL17, and there are so many high pop TL16 worlds in Massila that it should be rated as TL16.

Like I said - DGP inflated the Imperial TL.

IIRC this planet (sorry, I don't remember now the name, nor can I search for it) was already there in CT. IT's inhabited by self sentient robots and quite xenophobic, that's why its interdicted.

There is no superseding rule - it just wasn't mentioned that you can import stuff.

I think when HG's latter edictions said the TL of ships a planet builds is planet's TL supercedes that rule...

 

[rancke]

There is no superseding rule - it just wasn't mentioned that you can import stuff.

High Guard 1 page 21:

'the TL of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the TL of the shipyard.
All higher TL equipment must be imported, at 50% surcharge'​

Superseded by

HG2, page 20:

'Technological level is important in the design of a ship because it governs where the ship may be produced, and how well the crew can operate and mantain it. The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship). Equipment and components of a starship may(*) always be be equal or less than the ship's tech level.'​

Always remember that this isn't a wargame, it's a roleplaying game. Rules aren't just rules, they're reflections of an underlying reality. Even if the original rule could conceivably be interpreted the way you claim, it would be ridiculous to do so. Obviously a shipyard can't manufacture items of a greater tech level than its own. Clan Severn on Rhylanor can't build TL18 equipment, the way your interpretation would allow, and General Shipyard on Regina can't build TL15 equipment. What it should be able to do (even though the HG2 rule expressly forbid it) is to install equipment manufactured elsewhere and shipped to it. That's realistic enough. It's also realistic that a workforce used to a given tech level would have trouble installing technology of much higher level than it is used to.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Pop multipliers scale everything up. if everything scales by the same amount it cancels - there easy

Except that pop multipliers scale things up by nothing on some worlds, by two on other worlds, by three on other worlds, by four on other worlds, and so on up to by nine on some worlds. And subsector and sector fleets by a less easily determened factor of (at a guess) three to five.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

High Guard 1 page 21:

'the TL of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the TL of the shipyard.
All higher TL equipment must be imported, at 50% surcharge'

​

Ah, now I see the earlier seemingly alternate interpretation. At least it looked like Mike and you were reading this bit differently. I didn't see your read of it Hans until now. And I think I have to agree with you in. Academic as it is, being it is HG1

I think Mike was (I was at least) originally reading that as:

Ship TL may be up to 3 greater than listed TL of the shipyard "without importing" and anything higher than listed TL+3 is imported at 50% extra.

While you Hans (and me on this latest reading) are reading it as:

Ship TL may be up to 3 greater than listed TL of the shipyard "by importing" at an additional cost of 50%.

​

 

[rancke]

While you Hans (and me on this latest reading) are reading it as:

Ship TL may be up to 3 greater than listed TL of the shipyard "by importing" at an additional cost of 50%.

That's it. Not a bad rule either, even if it has been superseded. I'm in favor of reinstating it.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Sure, but I'm not talking about intelligence, but about techical skill and knowledge background. I have my dubts you could teach Newton how to repair a F-14, and I'm not questioning his intelligence.

Course you could, 4 years at technical school and he has engineering 2.

And who works with them? and what to do when some one breaks down?

The only thing that would achieve is making yourself more dependant from the one who sold you this machinery, as you'll need its help for nearly anyone.

You ship in replacement parts - is there a factory near you that manufactures computer graphics cards? Mine come from China.

Being dependent on off world trade may actually explain why worlds trade with each other in the first place.

But it's canon anyway, isn't it?

Fuzzy canon at best I would say

IIRC this planet (sorry, I don't remember now the name, nor can I search for it) was already there in CT. IT's inhabited by self sentient robots and quite xenophobic, that's why its interdicted.

Yup, Sabmiqys or something like that. (DGP invention)

I think when HG's latter edictions said the TL of ships a planet builds is planet's TL supercedes that rule...

So why does the Imperial navy transport meson guns to be assembled into its ships?