So, How many RUs for how many years...

[pendragonman]

Well, we have from Rob's investigations, both likely have A starports.

I would expect that the one with 900 likely has a better health care system as it also has billions of inhabitants instead of 100's of millions. Likely a better food distribution network as well. Probably similar TL as we aren't talking about a large difference, just a hundred RU. I would expect a greater tonnage of shipping on average for the one with 900 as well. All of this is nice information for a GM. The extra shipping might relate to a wider range of cargo types available to PCs playing a merchant's game, or a greater chance for exotic equipment. Better healthcare might mean the 900 RU system has those nifty med beds from the movie "Elysium", while the other just has TL standard healthcare.

I have never seen Pocket Empires, so I have no predetermined idea that RUs MUST have purchase power. Perhaps releasing that idea and thinking about RU as a scale instead may make your frustration level with RUs lower.

 

[rancke]

It seems to signify that System B is only slightly more (economically?) powerful than System A.

System B has a GWP 90 times that of System A yet it is only 12.5% more powerful?


Hans

 

[rancke]

I would expect that the one with 900 likely has a better health care system as it also has billions of inhabitants instead of 100's of millions. Likely a better food distribution network as well. Probably similar TL as we aren't talking about a large difference, just a hundred RU. I would expect a greater tonnage of shipping on average for the one with 900 as well. All of this is nice information for a GM. The extra shipping might relate to a wider range of cargo types available to PCs playing a merchant's game, or a greater chance for exotic equipment. Better healthcare might mean the 900 RU system has those nifty med beds from the movie "Elysium", while the other just has TL standard healthcare.

The two systems has the exact same per capita income. Are you thinking about some economics of scale effect perhaps?

I have never seen Pocket Empires, so I have no predetermined idea that RUs MUST have purchase power. Perhaps releasing that idea and thinking about RU as a scale instead may make your frustration level with RUs lower.

I'm trying to set aside such preconceptions (although I would have found that easier if MM had come up with a different term than Resource Units for whatever-it-is; it's a bit difficult to think of Resource Units as not being units of resources). The trouble is that every suggestion you make (and every idea I get) have some sort of economic connotations.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Look what up? I'm relying on the formula quoted here on the boards some time ago. Do you think that it's been misquoted?

As for the Pocket Empires version, I checked that myself.


Hans

I don't know. I've spent a few hours with T5 and can't find anything. If someone who can see better than I would provide a page number, or numbers, I'd love to take a close look.

 

[pendragonman]

The two systems has the exact same per capita income. Are you thinking about some economics of scale effect perhaps?


I'm trying to set aside such preconceptions (although I would have found that easier if MM had come up with a different term than Resource Units for whatever-it-is; it's a bit difficult to think of Resource Units as not being units of resources). The trouble is that every suggestion you make (and every idea I get) have some sort of economic connotations.


Hans

Per capita income? Based on World Bank analysis, Germany and Norway have almost identical per capita income. Germany has a pop digit of 7, Norway has a 6. Which one has greater economic power?

Germany

Canada has a per capita that is also almost the same as Germany and a pop digit of 7. Which country has more economic power?

Germany

per capita isn't as much a factor in economic power of a nation, which is what I am suggesting that T5 RU represent.

 

[whulorigan]

I don't know. I've spent a few hours with T5 and can't find anything. If someone who can see better than I would provide a page number, or numbers, I'd love to take a close look.

T5 Core Rulebook, p.56:

Resource Units (RU or Aryu). The basic governmental form of money is the Resource Unit. The RU is a relative unit of value useful for comparison of different governments. The RU is also used in accounting by MegaCorporations. There is no direct correlation between Resource Units and Credits or MegaCredits.

T5 Core Rulebook, p.427:

Resource Units. The Economic Extension can be used to compute the Resource Units of a world (in effect, its world budget).

T5 Core Rulebook, p.427:

Resource Units = R * L * I * E

If any value = 0, use 1 (to avoid multiplying by zero). Resource units can be negative: a world can be a net drain for Resource Units.

Efficiencies. All economies have efficiencies and barriers to efficiency. As used in the Economic Extension, Efficiencies range from -5 to +5, with higher values (because of the structure of the formula) being preferable. In the RU formula, Efficiency at -1 or less turn the RUs available negative: the Inefficiencies are so destructive as to make the economy a net drain. Such barriers represent a welfare state; cultural influences which do not value wealth, even physical limitations. On the other hand, since some economies have positive efficiencies: positive multipliers increasing available RU. Note Efficiency-0 uses 1 to avoid multiplying by zero; Efficiency- 0 and Efficiency +1 are functionally equivalent.

The Golden World. The theoretical (possibly apochryphal) world with maximum values under the Economic Extension would not only have an immense RU value, it would have virtually no barriers to production. Its citizens would value work, production, efficiency, and even customer satisfaction above all else.

Comparative Budgets. RU Resource Units are relative values: they are best understood in comparison to other worlds. Assuming World Alpha produces RU= 100 and World Beta produces RU= 50, one can assume Alpha has an economy twice the size of Beta. Similarly, if Alpha has a naval budget for ship production, Beta probably has a budget equal to half of Alpha’s.

T5 Core Rulebook, p.435:

Resources = 2D (If TL 8+, + GG + Belts)
Labor = Pop- 1
Infrastructure = 2D + Importance (If Ba, Di, Lo, then = 0. If Ni, then 1D.)
Efficiency = Flux

The minimum value for Resources, Labor, and Infrastructure is 0. Efficiency may be negative. Resources are any materials available for processing and exploitation. They include natural resources, minerals, ores, metals, energy sources, biological assets, and any other materials of limited availability. Labor is the workforce available for the processing and exploitation of Resources. Infrastructure is the established technical structures that support exploitation of resources. Infrastructure includes roads, power grids, communications, and factories. Efficiency reflects the current economic system, and includes sensible legal procedures, appropriate tariffs, customs promoting a balanced work ethic, rewards for merit, and social structures which match ability and job. Negative Efficiency is worse.

 

[rancke]

Per capita income? Based on World Bank analysis, Germany and Norway have almost identical per capita income. Germany has a pop digit of 7, Norway has a 6. Which one has greater economic power?

Germany

Actuaqlly, Norway has a per capita income twice that of Germany. But anyway, the reason I brought up per capita income was that the examples you mentioned were things thaty would affect individuals, such as healt care and food distribution.

per capita isn't as much a factor in economic power of a nation, which is what I am suggesting that T5 RU represent.

But if you're talking economic power as in Germany compared to Norway and Canada, then you're talking about a much greater difference than the 17% you'd get in RUs by going from pop 6 to pop 7 or the 0% you'd get from going from pop 7 to pop 7. Germany's GNP is 7 times that of Norway (+600%) and twice that of Canada (+100%).


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

AGAIN, HANS, I am asking that we get back to the questions I am asking. Economic discussions are for another thread. Please, please, please stop sidetracking this thread.

AGAIN, I am not asking to debate the RU, value or otherwise. I am asking how do we use it.

MODS, if we cannot get back on track, please lock this thread.

 

[rancke]

AGAIN, HANS, I am asking that we get back to the questions I am asking. Economic discussions are for another thread. Please, please, please stop sidetracking this thread.

I am trying to answer your question. The problem seems to be that you don't like the answers. As for sidetracking, that requires that there is a track in the first place, and I've been trying to get you to mark out one. So far without any luck.

AGAIN, I am not asking to debate the RU, value or otherwise. I am asking how do we use it.

And the first step in figuring out how to use it is to figure out what it is. I'm as much on track as it is possible to be.

MODS, if we cannot get back on track, please lock this thread.

Tell you what, I'll bow out of the discussion for now. It will be interesting to see what results you arrive at. Good luck with it.

When you have figured out something that you think works, perhaps you could post a summary and let me comment on that?


Hans

 

[Vladika]

AGAIN, I am not asking to debate the RU, value or otherwise. I am asking how do we use it.

If we don't really know what it is, how do we decide to use it? IMO, the RU seems to be only potential, like potential energy, "stored" in a static system.

Factory/ Shipyard sitting idle, raw materials of the planet, untapped labor, etc. If I'm off, please, somebody weigh in. In order to turn these RUs into monetary wealth, productive activity must occur. Again, if I'm off, please, somebody weigh in.

MODS, if we cannot get back on track, please lock this thread.

Why lock it? That would serve no purpose that I can see.

 

[McPerth]

If we don't really know what it is, how do we decide to use it?

I agree fully in this observation.

In fact, I agree so much on it that I started a new thread to discuss it, copying several posts from this one into it.

The posts were copied there, not just moved because some of its information is also worth remaining here, as might be relevant for the question.