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Shipyard Production

Actually money does grow on trees, and on bushes and in fields.
Landownership used to be the greatest generator of wealth either by selling produce or just renting the land to tenants.
Yes, if you have a few billion, it's not very difficult to make a few million.

Still does not make money free. If you con a random noble out of a few billion, he expect them back with interest. And he has friends, the police and courts kind of works for him.
 
Note that the estimates I have made are "best case". They leave no room for malfunctions, acts of god, or labour action. E.g. if the power plant breaks down, or we collide with something the ship spends a few months in the yard and we go bankrupt.
 
Capital is never free. Someone wants their money back, whether it is a private owner, shareholders, or the bank. The mortgage cost is a handy estimate.

Shareholders don't need to be returned the money. If they need it back, they sell the sares. What they expect is either dividends or see their shares rise in price before selling them.

In order to sell to consumers we also have to have a retail operation, like a gas station, with tanks, pumps, rent for space, and more staff.

Not if the skimmer is part of starport assets, as it would be sold directly to the customers (and is a must if you want to maintain your rating as a starport). Of course you need some infrastructure, but I guess costs would be minimal (in comparison), and can be sared among various such ships.

Or we can try financing from the stock market.

We issue MCr 2000 in stock. We buy a ship for MCr 1955. It takes 3 years to build, so we lose money for three years without any income.

Those 3 years would only be for the first ship, and the only costs while it is build are shareholders dividends. In such a long term busines, it's not rare to specify in the contract that no dividends will be given until the business start to run.

Yearly costs:
Fuel is free, since we skim.
Life Support 50 / 2 × kCr 2 × 47 ≈ MCr 2.35
Salaries: 47 × 12 × kCr 3 × 300% ≈ MCr 5
Maintenenace: ~MCr 2
Total yearly costs: 2 + 5 + 2 ≈ MCr 10

Why the 300% in salaries?

In a going concern, we have to save some money to buy a new ship when the old one is worn, say after 40 years (aka depreciation). MCr 1955 / 40 ≈ MCr 49 / year.

You're right. I forgot this one before, and it's quite considerable, as you say. My fault

The shareholders expect some dividends, say 5% or MCr 2000 × 5% ≈ MCr 100.

Dividends are not fixed, but depend on the business results, so I will caclulate them latter, as a final step.

So we need to earn MCr 10 + 49 + 100 ≈ MCr 159 / year. Divided by 224000 dT that is Cr 709 / dT refined fuel.

So we need MCr 10 (accepting your 300% in salaries, 6 otherwise) + 49 so about MCr 59 per year-

Accepting you numbers (224000 dtons of fuel delivered per year), your cost is 263.34 Cr/dton. If you sell them at 500 (as is refined), you end up with about MCr 53 as anual benefit.

To make numbers easy (and to keep some money as reserve), let's say MCr 50 are paid as dividends. The would mean Cr 25000 per share per year, or 2.5%. Not bad in an inflation free (or nearly so) economy as Traveller's is depicted for a long term investment...

The retail operation is in addition to this. Again we cannot sell refined fuel for Cr 500 to consumers.

Why not?

I already told about the retail, but if you add them then the dividends can be a little lower (let's say 2%, still not bad in such an economy). And I guess in most cases the main (if not only) shareholder will be either the Starport company or the planetary government, that will not be on it for profit (though they won't complain on it).

After all, excepting subsized merchants (but we kept subsides out of equation here, even while they are not ruled out, if the planet needs to maintain its fuel source to keep the Starport Rating) , what Traveller merchant owner can expect a constant 2.5% yearly benefit over his initial investment (the ship)?

That would mean about KCr 927 yearly benefit on a free trader (cost MCr 37.08, according LBB2)...

Note that the estimates I have made are "best case". They leave no room for malfunctions, acts of god, or labour action. E.g. if the power plant breaks down, or we collide with something the ship spends a few months in the yard and we go bankrupt.

That's what insurances are for.

And, in any case, you're not expected to have a single such ship, but probably several in opperation if the starport receives any traffic to buy fuel, and the temporary loss of one of them would affect the business, but not necessarily send you to banckrupcy. Thats why the dividends are not fixed, and the risk the shareholders accept.
 
Going back to the original question as to ship production, I have been re-reading a book for my summer history class called The Liberty Ships, by L. A. Sawyer and W. H. Mitchell, which is a history of the Liberty Ships built during World War 2, and includes a fair amount of construction information. Some of the very large yards which were turning out a dozen or so ships a month employed in excess of 20,000 workers, and relied heavily on pre-fabricated sections being shipped in, with the engine machinery being outsourced and then brought it. A Liberty would equate to a very simple 1420 Traveller dTon ship, basically a powered steel box. Typical ship assembly time was running about 60 days or so in the best yards. The first ship, the "Patrick Henry" took 242 days to build. Based on this, for the best yards, the construction rate was equivalent to about 10 Traveller dTons per worker per year. That is a rough but reasonable estimate, but for a very basic steel hull. It should be noted that over 2700 Liberty ships were built. I am not sure how many Traveller ships would be built in terms of 144 of the same ship by the same yard in one year.

The 1981 edition of book 2 of the LBB gives the construction time of a standard 1000 dTon hull of 27 months, and for a custom 1000 Traveller dTon hull of 30 months. That does not strike me as a reasonable difference in building speeds, but it is what we have to work with. I would expect a standard ship to be built considerably faster than only a 10% difference. Working from the 10 Traveller dTons per worker for a basic steel box in mass production, it probably would be safe to say that a very efficient yard assembling ships, where the basic hull is constructed from scratch at the yard, with drives and electronics being brought in from elsewhere, you could get an assembly rate of 2.5 Traveller dTons per worker per year for commercial vessels primarily carrying cargo. The limitations as to how many workers could be used on a vessel at one time would account for the minimum building times.

Therefor to build a custom 1000 dTon ship in 30 months would require a construction force of 160 persons. Not all of those would actually be working on the ship, as you would have administrative and support staff included as well. To produce say 5000 Traveller dTons of commercial ships per year would require a staff of 2000 persons. With that, you could produce 25 Free Traders a year, not a negligible quantity.

Based on the construction times of military ships in World War 2 that were in mass production, I would say that the average worker could assemble 1 (One) Traveller dTons of military ships per year. I understand that would play havoc with the idea of 100,000 to 500,000 Traveller dTon warships in terms of manpower to construct them, but that would be up to the Game Master.

If you then take the number of workers in the shipyard and multiply it by about 10, you can get an idea of the size of the community the shipyard is located in. This, in turn, would set the minimum planetary populations of Class A and Class B starports, as the Class B can build non-starships, which only lack the Jump Drive. As jump drives could be shipped in, I am not exactly in favor of that distinction. I would say that a better distinction between Class A and Class B starports would be that a Class A starport always has a High Port, while the Class B does not. Note, this would also increase the population of planets with Class A starports to support the High Port. I take the view that not all Class A and Class B starports have building yards, as some of the planets with A and B starports have very small populations of 4 or less. See the Spinward Marches supplement for examples.
 
What I took from that episode of history is whether you can have a starship with a concrete hull, and from another, a hull manufactured from a mixture of sawdust and ice.
 
How do we know hulls are not grown in moulds as single crystal iron alloy hulls suggest?
(Superdense hull material then relies on collapsing the electronic structure of the material to increase its density - I wonder if this is a spin off from damper or meson screen tech?)
Or how about 3d printing them?
Or using robots instead organic labour...
 
Shareholders don't need to be returned the money. If they need it back, they sell the sares. What they expect is either dividends or see their shares rise in price before selling them.
Certainly, but that means that the company must maintain its value by saving up money for a new ship. Which is the same thing.

Not if the skimmer is part of starport assets, as it would be sold directly to the customers (and is a must if you want to maintain your rating as a starport). Of course you need some infrastructure, but I guess costs would be minimal (in comparison), and can be sared among various such ships.
Yes, but the consumer price must still pay for the retail operation. A low port operation should be cheaper, but a high port location might cost more. A 10000 dT tank in the high port is probably not exactly free.

Those 3 years would only be for the first ship, and the only costs while it is build are shareholders dividends. In such a long term busines, it's not rare to specify in the contract that no dividends will be given until the business start to run.
OK, that is not much of a problem. It is still a small cost we have not accounted for.

Why the 300% in salaries?
I assumed two full crews with some extras to cover vacations, training, sick leave... If you want to make it 250% I will not protest.

You're right. I forgot this one before, and it's quite considerable, as you say. My fault
No worries, we have all missed things here.

Dividends are not fixed, but depend on the business results, so I will caclulate them latter, as a final step.
OK, that is the right way to do it. I tried to do it backwards to estimate what the market would require to invest.

So we need MCr 10 (accepting your 300% in salaries, 6 otherwise) + 49 so about MCr 59 per year-

Accepting you numbers (224000 dtons of fuel delivered per year), your cost is 263.34 Cr/dton. If you sell them at 500 (as is refined), you end up with about MCr 53 as anual benefit.

To make numbers easy (and to keep some money as reserve), let's say MCr 50 are paid as dividends. The would mean Cr 25000 per share per year, or 2.5%. Not bad in an inflation free (or nearly so) economy as Traveller's is depicted for a long term investment...
I would not expect 2 or 2.5% to excite potential investors. The basic mortgage implies a bank interest rate of 5 - 5.5% meaning you can probably get 4% if you lend to the bank, almost risk free. If our company returns less than 5% you are better off lending to the bank.

This is why I added a 5% dividend before.

Why not?

I already told about the retail, but if you add them then the dividends can be a little lower (let's say 2%, still not bad in such an economy). And I guess in most cases the main (if not only) shareholder will be either the Starport company or the planetary government, that will not be on it for profit (though they won't complain on it).

After all, excepting subsized merchants (but we kept subsides out of equation here, even while they are not ruled out, if the planet needs to maintain its fuel source to keep the Starport Rating) , what Traveller merchant owner can expect a constant 2.5% yearly benefit over his initial investment (the ship)?

That would mean about KCr 927 yearly benefit on a free trader (cost MCr 37.08, according LBB2)...
It is my understanding that the trade system is carefully tuned to make adventure class ships marginal, so forcing the would-be traders to speculate and go adventuring. A free trader is not representative of most companies.

That's what insurances are for.
Quite, but we have not included any cost for that.

It could be argued that the insurance premium is included in the mortgage cost for simplicity. If so, my implied interest rate is overstated.

And, in any case, you're not expected to have a single such ship, but probably several in opperation if the starport receives any traffic to buy fuel, and the temporary loss of one of them would affect the business, but not necessarily send you to banckrupcy. Thats why the dividends are not fixed, and the risk the shareholders accept.
I agree it's safer to have several ships. But to accept the risk the shareholders would expect a higher return, on average, than the lower risk bank interest.
 
Pretty sure the Liberty ship was an anachronism, but who knows. They were designed for a 5 year service life (though many survived that).

I'm not a commercial vessel geek, but I do watch a lot of Deadliest Catch. And while those boats are all similar, being mid size (I assume there are actually larger ones) commercial fishing vessels, none of those ships are the same. They all seem to be a custom build.

So, if the shipyards are pounding out clones like GM stamps out Malibu's, you can expect an actual boost in production. But I'm assuming some kind of continual production model where one ship completes after another. The suggestion being that you should only get the money and time benefit of a common ship class while the ship in continuously in production. When you start and stop, you have tooling and startup and shutdown times and costs involved.

For a common Free Trader, I have to assume that someone, somewhere (or several someones from several somewheres) have a line that just builds Free Traders. Fast enough for the market to absorb them. The tooling is set up, the templates are in place, the workers are trained.

Finally, y'all aren't considering leasing the ships. For sole proprietors, ownership makes a lot of sense. For a large corporation, they may simply lease the fleet and sell it off every 10 or 20 years once the ships depreciate off the books.
 
This is an excellent post because it also brings to mind how megacorporations can afford to run jump 3 and 4 ships - they don't pay mortgage cost.
I think I did an estimate of what it would cost to ship things 10 Pc. I remember large J-3 being cheapest for longer routes, since they can do many more trips per year. So the megacorps do not need free capital to operate J-3 ships.
 
Based on this, for the best yards, the construction rate was equivalent to about 10 Traveller dTons per worker per year.

... you could get an assembly rate of 2.5 Traveller dTons per worker per year for commercial vessels primarily carrying cargo.

Based on the construction times of military ships in World War 2 that were in mass production, I would say that the average worker could assemble 1 (One) Traveller dTons of military ships per year.
Thanks, great start for estimates.
 
The major omission in TCS to me are the costs associated with building and maintain naval bases.

[...]

There is a picture in the T5 rulebook (printed version not the latest pdf) that shows Regina highport - on one of its spokes is a Tigress class dreadnaught no bigger than a boil - that highport is huge, so how big are IN stations?

I thought it was a naval base, not the highport... but regardless, it's enormous, and blew away my former conception of orbital ports. It looks to me like you could fit a thousand Tigresses into that structure... in other words, 500 million tons. Or more.
 
I always wondered why it takes so long to build a starship. Wouldn't higher TLs have more advanced and faster manufacturing techniques?
 
What I took from that episode of history is whether you can have a starship with a concrete hull, and from another, a hull manufactured from a mixture of sawdust and ice.

Actually, the concrete ships were developed in World War 1, and there is at least one concrete junk sailing around the world checking on coral reefs. I was onboard it while in the Solomon Islands. Reinforced concrete with a good sealant would work nicely. Just be a bit bulky, but terrific for absorbing the energy of laser fire.

As for Pykrete, I do not know why you could not, but you would have to be careful how close you got to the system primary to avoid melting it.

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2013-09/concrete-canoe
 
I always wondered why it takes so long to build a starship. Wouldn't higher TLs have more advanced and faster manufacturing techniques?

In theory, yes. In practice, I would not be sure. It would be hard to go to a mass production line as you have for cars. Once you have the outer structure completed, then you have to work inside and begin running into space constraints. Basically, it would be up to you to decide how you wanted to work it.

I was coming up with estimates based on the closest example I can come up with for a mass-produced ship of good size. There were a couple of cases where by using a lot of prefabrication, ships were launched in 4 days or less, and accepted for service in less than 2 weeks.
 
This is an excellent post because it also brings to mind how megacorporations can afford to run jump 3 and 4 ships - they don't pay mortgage cost.


That's one of the megacorps' "open secrets". The other is "revealed" in SSOM.

The megacorps are large volume speculative traders. They don't haul freight at one KCr per ton.

They've got their own brokers, factors, and warehouses. They've got their own sales force and advertising budgets. They don't react to market forces as much as they create market forces.
 
That's one of the megacorps' "open secrets". The other is "revealed" in SSOM.

The megacorps are large volume speculative traders. They don't haul freight at one KCr per ton.

They've got their own brokers, factors, and warehouses. They've got their own sales force and advertising budgets. They don't react to market forces as much as they create market forces.

Actually, if one actually processes the information in Bk 7, one finds that secret pretty blatantly in the character generation options ...
 
Actually, if one actually processes the information in Bk 7, one finds that secret pretty blatantly in the character generation options ...


Yup. All the clues to both "secrets" have always been right out there in the open for anyone who chose to think about the topic.

For some people , however, it took a dope slap from the Old Timer to get them to notice.

"I don't see any grouse..." boink "Look at the grouse!"
 
Going back to the original question as to ship production, I have been re-reading a book for my summer history class called The Liberty Ships, by L. A. Sawyer and W. H. Mitchell, which is a history of the Liberty Ships built during World War 2, and includes a fair amount of construction information. Some of the very large yards which were turning out a dozen or so ships a month employed in excess of 20,000 workers, and relied heavily on pre-fabricated sections being shipped in, with the engine machinery being outsourced and then brought it. A Liberty would equate to a very simple 1420 Traveller dTon ship, basically a powered steel box. Typical ship assembly time was running about 60 days or so in the best yards. The first ship, the "Patrick Henry" took 242 days to build. Based on this, for the best yards, the construction rate was equivalent to about 10 Traveller dTons per worker per year. That is a rough but reasonable estimate, but for a very basic steel hull. It should be noted that over 2700 Liberty ships were built. I am not sure how many Traveller ships would be built in terms of 144 of the same ship by the same yard in one year.

The 1981 edition of book 2 of the LBB gives the construction time of a standard 1000 dTon hull of 27 months, and for a custom 1000 Traveller dTon hull of 30 months. That does not strike me as a reasonable difference in building speeds, but it is what we have to work with. I would expect a standard ship to be built considerably faster than only a 10% difference. Working from the 10 Traveller dTons per worker for a basic steel box in mass production, it probably would be safe to say that a very efficient yard assembling ships, where the basic hull is constructed from scratch at the yard, with drives and electronics being brought in from elsewhere, you could get an assembly rate of 2.5 Traveller dTons per worker per year for commercial vessels primarily carrying cargo. The limitations as to how many workers could be used on a vessel at one time would account for the minimum building times.

Therefor to build a custom 1000 dTon ship in 30 months would require a construction force of 160 persons. Not all of those would actually be working on the ship, as you would have administrative and support staff included as well. To produce say 5000 Traveller dTons of commercial ships per year would require a staff of 2000 persons. With that, you could produce 25 Free Traders a year, not a negligible quantity.

Based on the construction times of military ships in World War 2 that were in mass production, I would say that the average worker could assemble 1 (One) Traveller dTons of military ships per year. I understand that would play havoc with the idea of 100,000 to 500,000 Traveller dTon warships in terms of manpower to construct them, but that would be up to the Game Master.

If you then take the number of workers in the shipyard and multiply it by about 10, you can get an idea of the size of the community the shipyard is located in. This, in turn, would set the minimum planetary populations of Class A and Class B starports, as the Class B can build non-starships, which only lack the Jump Drive. As jump drives could be shipped in, I am not exactly in favor of that distinction. I would say that a better distinction between Class A and Class B starports would be that a Class A starport always has a High Port, while the Class B does not. Note, this would also increase the population of planets with Class A starports to support the High Port. I take the view that not all Class A and Class B starports have building yards, as some of the planets with A and B starports have very small populations of 4 or less. See the Spinward Marches supplement for examples.

I was going to post on the ship numbers for WWII, you've already covered it I see.

One thing to keep in mind though, starships are more like fabulously expensive aerospace items, not steel seagoing ships, and so time/costs will be higher.
 
Yup. All the clues to both "secrets" have always been right out there in the open for anyone who chose to think about the topic.

For some people , however, it took a dope slap from the Old Timer to get them to notice.

"I don't see any grouse..." boink "Look at the grouse!"

I thought everybody understood all this.

Oh well.
 
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