Traveller Theme 1: Proto-Traveller

[creativehum]

"specious".

I had already fixed the typo by the time your post went up.

Could you please address the points? Or are you this lacking in any foundation for your arguments that all you have is to call out a typo?

Also, because you continue to refuse to use the quote feature as established, I can't tell who you are responding to in recent posts. I've tried to find the phrases using search functions... Still don't know who you are responding to. Would it be so terrible to let us know who you are responding to?

 

[robject]

I *think* (but at this point am not sure) that I am saying that the Third Imperium is relatively light at this point (even fungible), and is relatively unentangled with the rest of the materials which make up Proto-Traveller.

I *don't think* I'm trying to say anything more than that.

 

[creativehum]

I *think* (but at this point am not sure) that I am saying that the Third Imperium is relatively light at this point (even fungible), and is relatively unentangled with the rest of the materials which make up Proto-Traveller.

I *don't think* I'm trying to say anything more than that.

Cool. Thanks.

The only bump I have with this is, for example, you bringing up Space Vikings as an example of a possible Proto-Traveller type setting. But there is nothing like the Imperium in the Space Vikings setting. (An entity like The Imperum would break a setting like Space Vikings.)

However, all the elements in Books 1-3 (the implied setting material) would function quite comfortable in the Space Vikings setting.

My own thinking is:

1) There is "original Traveller" (Books 1-3) which has awesome implied setting material that can still grow out countless ways (and must, in fact, since the SF elements in Books 1-3 are incredibly light!).
2) And then there is Proto-Traveller, which is an awesome, lightly sketched setting of a stretch of space called The Spinward Marches at the edge of an even more lightly sketched thing called The Third Imperium.
3) And then ther is everything after, where the elements becomes heavily focused on The Imperium, high level politics, beuracracy, military issues, and, at the SF end of things, The Ancients and their genetic manipulations.

In (2) the setting, even though lightly sketched, is still up for grabs by the Referee, is a rough and tumble frontier, and there's lots of room for all sorts of SF weirdness* if the Referee wants it. In (3) the Imperium enforces a peace across the Spinward Marches, the SF elements of weirdness are almost non-existent, and the setting becomes less of a frontier full of golden age SF adventures and seems like a setting focused more on late 20th Century Cold War geopolitical issues and trade issues.

So, that's where I'm bumping. But, again, not challenging. This is a project you are pursuing. I was just curious about what you're thinking about this.


* SF Weirdness: See Jack Vance, Poul Anderson, E.C. Tubbs, Alfred Bester, and others.

 

[kilemall]

true that. but then (heh) one determination leads to another, then another, then another, mostly ad hoc. and then the game can bog down in ad hoc determinations the players wave in your face from 3 years ago.

you can't pre-determine everything. but game expansion will go more smoothly if you have a pre-existing framework of coherent rational pre-decided determinations available.

like, oh, say, the third imperium ....

Death to the Imperium!

As far as 3 year player waving is concerned, show that it was all a corporate/government/charismatic personality lie, the science had not caught up with the engineering, etc.

 

[flykiller]

Death to the Imperium!

a clear and present threat to the emperor and the peaceful citizens of the imperium. assemble the fleets.

As far as 3 year player waving is concerned, show that it was all a corporate/government/charismatic personality lie, the science had not caught up with the engineering, etc.

oh man, referee fiat on steroids. once you start going down that road there's no turning back.

we have always been at war with darria.

 

[aramis]

the concept of nobility alone carries vast amounts of baggage, nothing sparse about it at all. and while the implemention may be vague (blood nobility? bureaucratic nobility? cleos nobility? imperial nobility? clan nobility?) the implementation cannot be permitted to be at all vague.

the concept of navy carries enormous baggage, nothing sparse about it at all. it implies large-scale and complex and well-developed industrial capabilities, large-scale and complex and well-developed social structures, and border disputes among multiple significant or a few very large polities who are equally capable.

etc.

Nothing in the concept of a Navy is absent from a TL10 society. Not having a space navy in such a technical setting would require explanation.

Nobility is a concept which is apparently near-universal with the rise of empires. It arises in China, Japan, Korea, The Roman Empire, Pharonic Egypt, the Inca, Aztec, and Maya... Even in modern American society, we have the hereditary elites ... Kennedy's, Carnegies, etc. Each State has lesser versions; Alaska has the Carr, Gottstein, Sullivan, and Kito families, and the more obvious but less entrenched Murkowski, Knowles, and Palin families. And then, the "Crime Families." (Note: despite their political ambitions, the Knowles and Murkowski families are business families first, political families second.)

 

[aramis]

one can make it "more generic" sure - it's a game, the referee says "I decree!" and it is thus - but unless you drop parts of lbb1-3 then I think you'll wind up with a 3i variant - maybe young, maybe decayed, maybe with cyber or something, but an interplanetary polity ruled by an absolute bureaucracy (the 3i) nonetheless.

Not really. You have 7 Government Services (Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Flyer, Sailor, Diplomat) and 9 non-service careers, plus two that make the border fuzzy (bureaucrat and Noble)... but any one or two of those can be dropped out without much effect on play and change the setting considerably. The only ones that really are essential are Army and Navy - without them, the setting is likely to collapse. Note that neither career implies nor requires an imperium, just a technologically advanced society.

Noble doesn't even imply the Third Imperium. It merely implies a functioning and promotable noble hierarchy - something that arose repeatedly in history.

probably the easiest variant would be to drop the "nobility" thing. be more like republican rome, sending the space legions out spqr for glory and fame. or like early america, pioneers in the wilderness. or something.

Even Republican Rome had nobility.

 

[creativehum]

Aramis,
I think your formatting went wonky in your last post. (The [/quote] became [/q])

 

[flykiller]

Nobility is a concept which is apparently near-universal with the rise of empires.

sure, like the 3i.

It arises in China, Japan, Korea

most westerners would have trouble playing any kind of eastern culture.

The Roman Empire

byzantium or persia fit the circumstances better, except for the excessive bureaucracy and taxation.

Pharonic Egypt

huh. the people worship jump and the wealth it brings them and the pharaoh who controls it. the great pyramid of vland ....

the Inca, Aztec, and Maya

human sacrifice for each jump.

yeah, they all have nobility, but the religious/cultural baggage of each might deter quite a few gamers. the 3i model where there is a "nobility" that usually keeps things under control and yet is far away from the player characters seems to support gaming (by a typical western audience) better ....

Even Republican Rome had nobility.

sure, as long as they didn't say it ....

 

[aramis]

sure, like the 3i.



most westerners would have trouble playing any kind of eastern culture.



byzantium or persia fit the circumstances better, except for the excessive bureaucracy and taxation.



huh. the people worship jump and the wealth it brings them and the pharaoh who controls it. the great pyramid of vland ....



human sacrifice for each jump.

yeah, they all have nobility, but the religious/cultural baggage of each might deter quite a few gamers. the 3i model where there is a "nobility" that usually keeps things under control and yet is far away from the player characters seems to support gaming (by a typical western audience) better ....



sure, as long as they didn't say it ....

A hereditary class of voters... that comprised less than 10% of the population, and owned 25% of the population... Pretty damned similar to many later noble centered systems.

The functional nobility still exist. In all modern societies, there are priviledged groups with power and money that are self perpetuating oligarchies and which are movers and shakers in overall society, determining policy well out of proportion to their means.

 

[kilemall]

Nothing in the concept of a Navy is absent from a TL10 society. Not having a space navy in such a technical setting would require explanation.

Nobility is a concept which is apparently near-universal with the rise of empires. It arises in China, Japan, Korea, The Roman Empire, Pharonic Egypt, the Inca, Aztec, and Maya... Even in modern American society, we have the hereditary elites ... Kennedy's, Carnegies, etc. Each State has lesser versions; Alaska has the Carr, Gottstein, Sullivan, and Kito families, and the more obvious but less entrenched Murkowski, Knowles, and Palin families. And then, the "Crime Families." (Note: despite their political ambitions, the Knowles and Murkowski families are business families first, political families second.)

RIght, that's why even in my IMTU which has countries that would still balk at such titles, the function is still there even if not the form.

 

[kilemall]

Not really. You have 7 Government Services (Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Flyer, Sailor, Diplomat) and 9 non-service careers, plus two that make the border fuzzy (bureaucrat and Noble)... but any one or two of those can be dropped out without much effect on play and change the setting considerably. The only ones that really are essential are Army and Navy - without them, the setting is likely to collapse. Note that neither career implies nor requires an imperium, just a technologically advanced society.

Don't forget Merchants could be a service too.

 

[kilemall]

human sacrifice for each jump.

Ooooh we gotta have some of that. Do navigators automatically get Dagger-1? For cheaper jumps, perhaps chicken sacrifice for reading omens.

 

[kilemall]

a clear and present threat to the emperor and the peaceful citizens of the imperium. assemble the fleets.

Bring it, slave to the sunburst!

oh man, referee fiat on steroids. once you start going down that road there's no turning back.

we have always been at war with darria.

If I understand canon correctly, a lot of it is outright lies and/or POV-driven. And if I understand the Galaxiad 'it's all a legend and patched together history with agenda', there are lies potentially lurking in turbocharged T5 canon.

So I am perfectly within canon to not be in canon, published or otherwise. MWAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!

 

[flykiller]

human sacrifice for each jump.

Ooooh we gotta have some of that. Do navigators automatically get Dagger-1? For cheaper jumps, perhaps chicken sacrifice for reading omens.

wine and grain offering for j1, santeria for j2, fattened ox for j3 ....

Bring it, slave to the sunburst!

you will find a home in the outer system.

 

[kilemall]

you will find a home in the outer system.

Ahhh, you must be one of those interdimensional traveller chaps that pop out of the rift every so often after they misjumped.

No 'Imperium' here, this is the Raj sector, Punjab subsector, and by the Grace of His Majesty King George XVI, we are loyal subjects of the United Star Kingdom!

 

[flykiller]

standard battle order.

(heh. we could game this out.)

 

[Vargr Breath]

Hi
After reading all of these post I wonder if we should call the use of only LLBs 1-3 Proto-Traveller.
Using LBBs 1-4, Supplements 1-4, Adventures 1-4 and all of the Double Adventures could be called Proto-Imperium.

 

[flykiller]

could. but given that lbb1-3 involve navies, armies, titled nobility, and social ranking (as an inherent personal characteristic, no less), "proto-traveller" and "proto-imperial" seem distinctions without a difference.

 

[aramis]

Hi
After reading all of these post I wonder if we should call the use of only LLBs 1-3 Proto-Traveller.
Using LBBs 1-4, Supplements 1-4, Adventures 1-4 and all of the Double Adventures could be called Proto-Imperium.

Redefining long established (over a dozen years now) terms is NOT a good idea.