AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
In LBB2?You do not fly like a rocket, you take off like a plane as shown in artwork, deckplans and starport layout (runways).
Where are starport runways defined as standard in CT?
In LBB2?You do not fly like a rocket, you take off like a plane as shown in artwork, deckplans and starport layout (runways).
The rules are wrong, because you really want all starships to land on all worlds?Then Striker is wrong.
A streamlined ship can fly.
Physics is wrong, because you really want all starships to land on all worlds?The values are whatever they need to be for a TL9 hull to achieve hypersonic flight in trace atmosphere. I wouldn't worry about heat transfer, and as for ionisation the m-drive has that covered.
Agreed completely: Your TU works however you want, not because the LBBs told you it had to be that way, but because you house ruled it.But again, it's a game, and fiction to boot. It works if you want it to.
I'm kinda wondering now... and this may be a pointless digression, but ...I think you have to establish if the Classic manoeuvre drive creates a field effect, pure thrust, or a combination of both.
Depends on how much Handwavium you want to incorporate into your TU, I guess ... (beyond the obligatory minimum, that is).does that give a streamlined ship extra "wing area" since the bubble is bigger than the ship?
Depends if we want to believe the rules in LBB2:If the M-drive makes a 'drive bubble' around the ship, such that everything inside is accelerated at the same time...
Thrust is a force. If the M-drive produces thrust, there are no magical bubbles or field effects necessary.LBB2'81, p26:
_ _ 3. Thrust: Maneuver drive thrust is measured in Gs (gravities) expressed as a vector of both length and direction.
So you are saying all ships in your Traveller universe take off like rockets.I can answer that question using only a single word.
You ready?
You watching?
Okay, here I go ...
DIFFERENTLY.
The way that a CTOL plane takes off is not the same as the way a VTOL helicopter takes off ... or a starship lifts off ... or a rocket launches skyward.
Sure, there may be common principles in engineering and the "physics problem" involved is relatively similar ... but the methods and processes used to "solve that problem" are not UTTERLY IDENTICAL, nor are they interchangeable, between the different varieties of craft.
Stop trying to conflate THIS ...
... with THIS ...
I think you just proved that Airplanes cannot Fly under RAW.Have to agree with @AnotherDilbert here on this one, but I've got even more corroborating evidence that you neglected to look for.
LBB2.81, p26-37 deals with Space Combat and (wait for it) ... vector movement!
Specific (repeated!) mentions of gravity in vector movement are highlighted in bold text.
Note that the "standard design type A free trader" IS DIRECTLY MENTIONED within the vector movement rules.
LBB2.81, p27:
LBB2.81, p28:
LBB2.81, p28:
LBB2.81, p28-29:
LBB2.81, p31:
LBB2.81, p36-37 even has formulas and a table for easy use to determine gravity bands around planetary surfaces.
Note that the table provided on LBB2.81, p37 specifically details the surface gravity of Size: 8+ worlds (at 1.000G, 1.125G and 1.250G respectively).
Not to put too fine a point on things that ought to be beyond obvious enough already ... but you need to achieve a "negative G vector" if you want to Go To Space Today™ from a planetary surface. That's just vector math for you!
- Size: 7 = 0.875G - 1G = -0.125G vector
- Size: 8 = 1.000G - 1G = +0.000G vector
- Size: 9 =1.125G - 1G = +0.125G vector
- Size: A =1.250G - 1G = +0.250G vector
Also, LBB2.81, p28 includes this tidbit:
In other words ... THERE IS NO OVERCLOCKING of maneuver drives available for "bursts" of maneuver in CT.
Extra bonus points to anyone who reads through LBB2.81, p26-37 and realizes that "atmospheric LIFT due to streamlining" is conspicuously absent from any mention AT ALL as an available modifier to movement vectors for starships and small craft. In fact, the closest thing you can get to the notion is (wait for it) ...
LBB2.81, p34:
Last I checked, being on the surface of a planet with a standard or dense atmosphere counted as being within 1000km (10mm using the vector movement scaling) of a planet. So a Standard or Dense atmosphere adds a 0.1G drag force to vector movement under LBB2.81 (and LBB2.77 for that matter)!
So if we circle back to our vector math assumptions that resolve movement vectors and add in the atmospheric DRAG (not lift! drag!) of Standard and Dense atmospheres, we get this result:
So a "standard design type A free trader capable of 1G acceleration" CAN LIFT OFF from a Size: 7 world (0.875G) at either 0.125G vertical (Atmosphere: 5-) or agonizingly slowly at 0.025G vertical (Atmosphere: 6-9) under LBB2.81 vector movement RAW.
- Size: 7 = 0.875G + 0.1G - 1G = -0.025G vector
- Size: 8 = 1.000G + 0.1G - 1G = +0.100G vector
- Size: 9 =1.125G + 0.1G - 1G = +0.225G vector
- Size: A =1.250G + 0.1G - 1G = +0.350G vector
That same "standard design type A free trader capable of 1G acceleration" is going to remain FIRMLY MIRED in the gravity well of any Size: 8+ world ... and adding Atmosphere: 6-9 only makes things WORSE ... not better!
BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO.
Any tabletop wargamer who can compute vector math in their head could figure it out (for themselves!) VERY VERY QUICKLY.
I guess my question is : if it produces thrust, what does it apply it to?Depends if we want to believe the rules in LBB2:
Thrust is a force. If the M-drive produces thrust, there are no magical bubbles or field effects necessary.
I'd actually considered doing up a set of deck plans for the Type A based explicitly on that.and these resemble the type A, course you would have to scale them up, but TL9 should manage.
Northrop M2-F3 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Rules as written say, "no".
Agreed.
No ... that is a completely wrong perspective and understanding of the question.I think you just proved that Airplanes cannot Fly under RAW.
DIFFERENTLY.How does a plane take off?
The issue here is ships operating in the same aerodynamic regime as aircraft.Broadly speaking ... NO. Aircraft use a different system (which is best detailed by Striker).
Smoking gun?... Except the RULES AS WRITTEN may not actually SAY "No." I just reread this topic and nobody seems to have ever produced that "smoking gun" rule that says that my Type A Free Trader (1G) cannot take off [and should not attempt to land] on a size 8+ world.
Spacecraft does not fly using aerodynamic lift, but by drive thrust.Striker, B2, p46:
_ _ A. Movement: The movement rate of a spaceship is determined in the same way as that for a grav vehicle; the ship's maneuver drive rating is used as its G value. A ship with a G rating equal to or less than the planetary gravity may not take part in combat actions except from orbit.
Not real world physics, but the LBB2 spacecraft movement system very explicitly says:It is always just something inferred from real world Newtonian Physics and 1G vectors.
That is RAW, and also a reasonable simplification of how physics work.LBB2'81, p28:
... During the movement phase, lay out the vector of the ship to determine where it will move. If the exact midpoint of the vector lies in a gravity band, a gravity vector will be added to the course vector to create a new vector. ...
I would say that LBB2 counts as RAW?Well, THAT is NOT RAW ... that is YOUR "House Rule" (which y'all are entitles to). However, the RAW appear to be SILENT on the subject.
Because they don't have to be particularly good at being aircraft!This is, of course, glossing over the fact that most Traveller ships, as illustrated, aren't particularly good at being aircraft.
I think not:But does an M-drive apply thrust to everything in the hull at once?
We would not need these grav plates if everything accelerated at the same rate.LBB5'79, p17:
Tech level requirements for maneuver drives are imposed to cover the grav-plates integral to most ship decks which allow high-G maneuvers while the interior G-fields remain normal.
(meaning they're no help with wilderness refueling where you'll need to VTOL or CTOL without any kind of ground support infrastructure).