So I guess that makes my old group one of the original splitters from 'pure' Traveller
It's odd really that this rule causes so much heat and debate but is so easy to houserule.
1st Preview up for Mongoose Traveller
- Thread starter Echo
- Start date
So I guess that makes my old group one of the original splitters from 'pure' Traveller
It's odd really that this rule causes so much heat and debate but is so easy to houserule.
Having to write Char modifiers on the character sheet kinda ruins the elegance of the UPP. If you're going to do that you might as well ditch hex notation too and voila, it looks pretty much like any other rpg system.
I've used something similar to Echo's system and it works a treat.
+1 if char => than Task Difficulty number
-1 if char < half Task Difficulty number
Automatic +1 for chars 13, 14, 15.
Automatic -1 for chars 1 and 2.
Therefore the mods run from -2 to +2, to match the weapons table modifiers.
For tasks I don't use categories. I just assign a difficulty rating out of 10 and add 3. This is fine for most tasks. If something really difficult crops up, I can go up to 15.
Dead simple, and no goddamn constant referring to tables at all, my biggest bugbear with Traveller (2 weapon tables!!!???!!!! to consult???!!!!????)
I've used something similar to Echo's system and it works a treat.
+1 if char => than Task Difficulty number
-1 if char < half Task Difficulty number
Automatic +1 for chars 13, 14, 15.
Automatic -1 for chars 1 and 2.
Therefore the mods run from -2 to +2, to match the weapons table modifiers.
For tasks I don't use categories. I just assign a difficulty rating out of 10 and add 3. This is fine for most tasks. If something really difficult crops up, I can go up to 15.
Dead simple, and no goddamn constant referring to tables at all, my biggest bugbear with Traveller (2 weapon tables!!!???!!!! to consult???!!!!????)
Ok now had a chance to look at S&P I'm slightly alarmed at the cynicism present on this thread!
I don't like char-7 either but without a shadow of a doubt that won't survive to the final product - it's mentioned because it's in the T5 briefing.
The new font is pretty good actually. Optima is so dated nowadays: it screams "Seventies". Keeping the original design but with a few new flourishes is exactly what good branding is about.
And I completely disagree that such things will go un-noticed on the rpg shelves. The shelves are in fact stacked with books with illustrated covers which all blur into each other after a while. And if I see another dog in a crushed velvet smoking jacket I will cry.
(Now perhaps the reprints didn't sell well, I don't know, but who, apart from me, is going to buy a reprint of a 70's rpg they've never played before?)
The way for Traveller to do well is to be different rather than ape all the rest. And anyway, it's going to be running Starship Troopers, Strontium Dog, Judge Dredd, etc. It is garanteed shelf space.
People aren't happy with what they did with RuneQuest. Fair enough. But Conan and Judge Dredd are pretty fantastic.
Chris Longhurst isn't a sci-fi fan? So what! Nicholas Meyer didn't like sci-fi and had no interest in Star Trek, yet he directed Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country, the most highly regarded (justly so) films of the lot.
And he dislikes science. Again, not necessarily a problem. This is an rpg, not a physics class, and science is ultimately just colour. As long as there are advisors who can say, no that can never exist, then fine.
The original LBBs look like textbooks on the inside. That's not what we want this time.
I can't remember reading in any Traveller product (at least mainline ones) that nanotech or AI or whatnot is anathema. Just because there are no rules for it does not mean it can't exist. There is no listing for shoes on the equipment list; that doesn't mean everyone goes barefoot. This is a theological debate. I don't want a game set in aspic circa 1979.
Basically it is far too early to have written this off. To use another gaming type analogy, they said similar about the Wii...
I don't like char-7 either but without a shadow of a doubt that won't survive to the final product - it's mentioned because it's in the T5 briefing.
The new font is pretty good actually. Optima is so dated nowadays: it screams "Seventies". Keeping the original design but with a few new flourishes is exactly what good branding is about.
And I completely disagree that such things will go un-noticed on the rpg shelves. The shelves are in fact stacked with books with illustrated covers which all blur into each other after a while. And if I see another dog in a crushed velvet smoking jacket I will cry.
(Now perhaps the reprints didn't sell well, I don't know, but who, apart from me, is going to buy a reprint of a 70's rpg they've never played before?)
The way for Traveller to do well is to be different rather than ape all the rest. And anyway, it's going to be running Starship Troopers, Strontium Dog, Judge Dredd, etc. It is garanteed shelf space.
People aren't happy with what they did with RuneQuest. Fair enough. But Conan and Judge Dredd are pretty fantastic.
Chris Longhurst isn't a sci-fi fan? So what! Nicholas Meyer didn't like sci-fi and had no interest in Star Trek, yet he directed Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country, the most highly regarded (justly so) films of the lot.
And he dislikes science. Again, not necessarily a problem. This is an rpg, not a physics class, and science is ultimately just colour. As long as there are advisors who can say, no that can never exist, then fine.
The original LBBs look like textbooks on the inside. That's not what we want this time.
I can't remember reading in any Traveller product (at least mainline ones) that nanotech or AI or whatnot is anathema. Just because there are no rules for it does not mean it can't exist. There is no listing for shoes on the equipment list; that doesn't mean everyone goes barefoot. This is a theological debate. I don't want a game set in aspic circa 1979.
Basically it is far too early to have written this off. To use another gaming type analogy, they said similar about the Wii...
Speak for yourself.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
The point about nanotech and AI is not to mire Traveller in 1970s sci-fi. The point is that both of those technologies, when used in "traditional" sci-fi ways, change the basic human complexion and experience. The entire premise of Traveller is that humans are humans, and humans in 5700 (or whatever the AD date for 1110 is) are fundamentally the same as they are today. If you let nanotech, genemods, true AI, etc. completely out of the bag, then humans of 5700 (or whatever) become something entirely other than what humans are today.
That is not to say doing so is necessarily bad; it just isn't Traveller.
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
Having the precaled modifier next to the stat is a lot simpler. You don't have to try and figure out if you get to use it or not based on the TN or how it's applied.
And what hexadecimal notation is all that makes Traveller different from other games????
I'm curious if you used the weapon mods from LBB 1/4, and if you did how you recorded them on the character sheet?
I never wrote my characters out using hex and writing;
Str: 10/+1
Dex: 7/0
End: 8/0
Int: 11/+2
Edu: 7/0
Soc: 7/0
is not a problem. Without wishing to open the whole hex debate again I think that any new players that get drawn into the game are most likely going to write characters out as above rather than A78B77.
Actually, (Stat-7)/2 (round towards 0) vs TN is not the same as (Stat/2) vs TN+3.5 ...
Code:
S (S-7)/2 (S/2) (-3)
F +4 +7 +4
[U]E +3 +7 +4[/U]
D +3 +6 +3
[U]C +2 +6 +3[/U]
B +2 +5 +2
[U]A +1 +5 +2[/U]
9 +1 +4 +1
[U]8 +0 +4 +1[/U]
7 +0 +3 +0
6 +0 +3 +0
5 -1 +2 -1
4 -1 +2 -1
3 -2 +1 -2
2 -2 +1 -2
1 -3 +0 -3
0 -- –- --The underlined lines are the difference. Col 3 is col two adjusted by 3 for the centerpoint value... to make a direct comparison. Not much of a difference, but it is one.
Have to disagree here, my friend. In fact I'm not that enamoured with 'regular' sci-fi interpretations of nanotech. Bloo goo is just so much bollox, and Ray Kurzweil is talking out of his arse. Nano ain't magic, it's just engineering. We live in a nanotech world already. MTU is full of nano, just that instead of changing Traveller to fit a single, silly pov of nano, I change nano to fit Traveller.
So, the humans of 5700 are still human, with all their nano-engineered gear. Bloo goo ain't Traveller perhaps, but nano ain't bloo goo.
And how does AI stop humans being human? AI is fun (Excession) ; why would we want to 'ban' something fun out of an arbitrary and not very convincing idea that it just ain't Traveller.
Flip it round: instead of just saying this and that ain't Traveller, apply some hard SF Traveller rigour to them and make 'em Traveller!
Hunter, I didn't mean that a hex number string is all there is to Traveller. It's just (taking MT) as an example, if there's only 3 modifiers, ie mechanical effects to each attribute, why have a range from 1 to 15. Where a 6 and a 10 has exactly the same game effect? You might as well just rate them 1 to 3.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
I am perfectly fine with that. Works for me, and is what I usually do, and what other versions of Traveller have done (e.g. GT:ISW). But see below ...
Widespread or commonly occurring AI makes humans become irrelevant. At that point, humans either go away or they modify themselves to keep up, and thereby stop being humans (as we know them). AI marginalizes humans. You might as well add supers or something. (Actually, if you let PCs be AI characters, you are adding supers.)
I will note that AI has always been in Traveller (e.g. Kinuir's computer, Grandfather's robots, the Cymbaline chip, AB-101, even Virus). However, it has always been the exception and in the background.
(Of course, I will also admit that I think that real AI is just as "magic" as psionics and grey goo.)
But at that point, haven't you really banned it, just in another name?Flip it round: instead of just saying this and that ain't Traveller, apply some hard SF Traveller rigour to them and make 'em Traveller!
Let's go with the explanation that nano is all around, and it is part of the fabber and manufacturing process at TL 12 and above. What are the game effects of that? You don't have the "magic healing tubes" or "grey goo" or "programmable dust" or whatever that most people associate with the sci-fi version of "nanotechnology". To anyone wanting that type of equipment, this type of "inclusion" does effectively ban it.
All in all, I am greatly encouraged by what I see in the preview, and am eagerly looking forward to more. It seems that there might be a '760 Patrons' book coming out as part of the Core line, which would be most interesting. That's a lot of Patron Encounters.
I definitely want to see what, if anything, we'll be able to write about regarding the OTU under the new licenses, or if all OTU work will be relegated to Mongoose products only.
We shall see,
Flynn
I definitely want to see what, if anything, we'll be able to write about regarding the OTU under the new licenses, or if all OTU work will be relegated to Mongoose products only.
We shall see,
Flynn
Plankowner
SOC-13
I had good and bad impressions of the first posting in S&P.
Basically they were related to the same statement: RTT will be like CT Books 1-3.
What the F*ck! It sounds like we will have to go out and buy another Book 4, another Book 5, another Books 6-8. ANOTHER map of the Spinward Marches. How many books will be published before we get something that hasn't been around since the 1970's? How many versions of the Type S Scout/Courier are we going to see before we see something new?
Don't get me wrong, I LIKE LBB1-3 (A LOT), but I was hoping for something a bit new. Looks like we get the same old sectors (again) and the same old suppliments. Where is the new stuff?
(RANT OFF)
OK, now on the good side, I personally like that it will be based on LBB1-3 (obviously based on how long I have been playing). Keep the core rules setting free and off we go. OTU Sourcebook: could be very interesting, but how much history will we actually get? 1100-1400 or something less?
Are we getting re-imaged books (again) or are we really getting something new and worth buying?
Basically they were related to the same statement: RTT will be like CT Books 1-3.
What the F*ck! It sounds like we will have to go out and buy another Book 4, another Book 5, another Books 6-8. ANOTHER map of the Spinward Marches. How many books will be published before we get something that hasn't been around since the 1970's? How many versions of the Type S Scout/Courier are we going to see before we see something new?
Don't get me wrong, I LIKE LBB1-3 (A LOT), but I was hoping for something a bit new. Looks like we get the same old sectors (again) and the same old suppliments. Where is the new stuff?
(RANT OFF)
OK, now on the good side, I personally like that it will be based on LBB1-3 (obviously based on how long I have been playing). Keep the core rules setting free and off we go. OTU Sourcebook: could be very interesting, but how much history will we actually get? 1100-1400 or something less?
Are we getting re-imaged books (again) or are we really getting something new and worth buying?
daryen
SOC-14 1K
I can understand the idea of not wanting to buy the same thing over and over again, but seriously, what new stuff do you want? Books 1-3 (aka The Traveller Book) is the foundation of the Traveller rules set. To do any of the other stuff, you gotta have it. (Exception: I would like to dispense with the whole idea of "basic" and "extended" char gen. Just make one system. I hate that you get 4 skills with "basic" and 12 with "extended" for the same number of terms. That's stupid.) It is pretty much required to have that foundation for any new version.
As for setting, what "new" setting do you want? Traveller seems to be wrapped up in the "OTU", so using it seems to be required. If you don't want the Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim, what do you want? Gateway is out, as it has already been done recently. You could do Aldebaran, but that knocks out a bunch of the major races. Trojan Reach is probably out, as it has already been done along with the Spinward Marches. (Besides, it seemed to have lost a lot in the transition from the Outrim Void to the Trojan Reach.) Where in the OTU do you want to go?
I grant that part of the impetous for the Spinward Marches is intertia, but it is also a perfect "meeting point" for the Imperium, Zhodani, Vargr, and Aslan. The closest you can get with that would be in Gateway with the Imperium, Solomani, Hivers, and K'kree. But then that is still currently available product from QLI.
So, what is all of this "new" material you are looking for?
As for setting, what "new" setting do you want? Traveller seems to be wrapped up in the "OTU", so using it seems to be required. If you don't want the Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim, what do you want? Gateway is out, as it has already been done recently. You could do Aldebaran, but that knocks out a bunch of the major races. Trojan Reach is probably out, as it has already been done along with the Spinward Marches. (Besides, it seemed to have lost a lot in the transition from the Outrim Void to the Trojan Reach.) Where in the OTU do you want to go?
I grant that part of the impetous for the Spinward Marches is intertia, but it is also a perfect "meeting point" for the Imperium, Zhodani, Vargr, and Aslan. The closest you can get with that would be in Gateway with the Imperium, Solomani, Hivers, and K'kree. But then that is still currently available product from QLI.
So, what is all of this "new" material you are looking for?
You can treat nano and AI like laser guns and pgmps. It exists, it's there, you can have it, but it's pricey, the Imperium is after you, and it's often more trouble than it's worth. But these kind of technologies need intergrating into the OTU in some way, even if it is to limit them and fence them off, else newbies will see a game set in 70s aspic.
Like genetic engineering: there's no mention really in classic Traveller, but if we state it has been so commonplace that nobody mentions it, like anitbiotics, a dragon is slain. My take is that genengineering would have to have been widespread, not to make super brainy people or guys with giant pecs, just to make frail old humaniti actually be able to survive for lengths of time in zero g, or not catch nasty diseases when they colonisie a new world, or even just visit one. The equivalent of malaria meds for visits to the tropics.
Lifespans should increase also. We're already well ahead of 3 score years and 10. Maybe 120 should be the normalised lifespan for healthy folk in the 3I.
On a final note, one little tidbit that does get me excited is the mention of adding some character background stuff for chargen. Who people know, where they've been, are they married and have grown up children. Sometimes who they know is at least as important to what they know. Now that would truly fulfill the potential that prior history has always had.
I'm just asking for folk not to write it off already. We have seen bugger all really yet, and if we want the gurus at Mongoose to take on board some things we say then our criticism needs to be positive (as in constructive), not pessimistic like this thread was in danger of turning.
Like genetic engineering: there's no mention really in classic Traveller, but if we state it has been so commonplace that nobody mentions it, like anitbiotics, a dragon is slain. My take is that genengineering would have to have been widespread, not to make super brainy people or guys with giant pecs, just to make frail old humaniti actually be able to survive for lengths of time in zero g, or not catch nasty diseases when they colonisie a new world, or even just visit one. The equivalent of malaria meds for visits to the tropics.
Lifespans should increase also. We're already well ahead of 3 score years and 10. Maybe 120 should be the normalised lifespan for healthy folk in the 3I.
On a final note, one little tidbit that does get me excited is the mention of adding some character background stuff for chargen. Who people know, where they've been, are they married and have grown up children. Sometimes who they know is at least as important to what they know. Now that would truly fulfill the potential that prior history has always had.
I'm just asking for folk not to write it off already.
We have seen bugger all really yet, and if we want the gurus at Mongoose to take on board some things we say then our criticism needs to be positive (as in constructive), not pessimistic like this thread was in danger of turning.Because rational use of AI (or even reasonably advanced computers) tend to eliminate the human element in a lot of jobs. There's no good reason to use humans in battledress when you can use a warbot. There's no good reason to have a human on board an X-boat. If you have decent AI (even fairly weak AI), you don't really need a pilot, navigator, or gunner, and other jobs can be replaced with only a bit more work. There are a lot of jobs where there's just no need for a human if you have reasonable quality AI.
AI does not mean true Artificial Intelligence until TL H+ in Traveller terms. An AI unit could be programmed to understand a few thousand basic commands and situations to fudge their way out of it...the fuzzy logic arguementation that increasingly is making its way into programming. Otherwise, a series of tasks that would be Trial & Error till the machine gets it right. This is why low level AI would not be suited for most tasks that a human does.
For example, a X boat jumps into a system where the beacon is blown a fuse.
I. AI scans for Main World
II. AI sends distress transmit
III. AI detects small craft rapidly appoaching
IV. AI verifies transponder code with that being of a tender
V. AI upon closer approach recognizes that it is not a tender configuration
VI. Given override signal releases data to awaiting pirate ship
VII. Pirates canabalize the X boat, the AI sends one last distress signal.
Now, how would a human perform differently each step is a logical sequence after the next. Not intelligent decisions to be sure. But, that is the extent how a TL F AI would operate. However, if you wanted to employ an AI to simply act instead of a crew member to do a routine task, eg. refuelling, it could avoid nastiness by waking the crew member when it sensed the first instance of trouble.
For example, a X boat jumps into a system where the beacon is blown a fuse.
I. AI scans for Main World
II. AI sends distress transmit
III. AI detects small craft rapidly appoaching
IV. AI verifies transponder code with that being of a tender
V. AI upon closer approach recognizes that it is not a tender configuration
VI. Given override signal releases data to awaiting pirate ship
VII. Pirates canabalize the X boat, the AI sends one last distress signal.
Now, how would a human perform differently each step is a logical sequence after the next. Not intelligent decisions to be sure. But, that is the extent how a TL F AI would operate. However, if you wanted to employ an AI to simply act instead of a crew member to do a routine task, eg. refuelling, it could avoid nastiness by waking the crew member when it sensed the first instance of trouble.
Actually, using its TL F cryptography package, it recognizes the code as being invalid and proceeds to purge all of its on-board memory.
MichaelSTee
SOC-12
De-lurking to weigh in on this topic: I'm excited about Mongoose doing Traveller. I think it will be good for an established company to put the game in front of a new generation of players. Its a bummer that we will probably see a lot of the older text recycled into the new game, and I will feel like I'm buying the same old stuff again (and after MT, TNE, T4, T20, and the reprints, AND the CD compilation, I REALLY don't like the idea of buying the same text over!). But as they put out recycled supplements, newbies could see that it is well-supported, and that could draw players.
But knowing that books 1-3 will be OGL is good too. And if nano, AI, and cyber-stuff isn't included in the main rules, so what? This might give some people a chance to make some third-party add-on rules. The same goes for world generation - the official line might be as unscientific as the original game, but someone like Malenfant could probably sell a PDF of his "more realistic" system gen.
I would like to see a somewhat generic set of rules that would allow me to replicate backgrounds like Battlestar Galactica, Stargate, Firefly, or Farscape (or even Space:1889), without having to use a D20 ruleset (blech!) And I think that RTT could have that potential.
MichaelSTee
But knowing that books 1-3 will be OGL is good too. And if nano, AI, and cyber-stuff isn't included in the main rules, so what? This might give some people a chance to make some third-party add-on rules. The same goes for world generation - the official line might be as unscientific as the original game, but someone like Malenfant could probably sell a PDF of his "more realistic" system gen.
I would like to see a somewhat generic set of rules that would allow me to replicate backgrounds like Battlestar Galactica, Stargate, Firefly, or Farscape (or even Space:1889), without having to use a D20 ruleset (blech!) And I think that RTT could have that potential.
MichaelSTee
daryen
SOC-14 1K
That is not what Klaus is talking about. He is talking about Artificial Intelligence AI. He is talking about Cym-level AI. He is talking about changing the setting. You are talking about existing canon.
And, as Anthony points out, and as the TNE setting itself points out, if you have true AI, you remove the human element from a vast number of jobs they are required for in Traveller. Quite frankly, given full penetration of true AI, the only job humans should have on a starship is passenger.
