mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Lol, I have no idea how I didn't take that in, I even quoted it 
CT Only: 2nd Generation Type-S
- Thread starter Shadow Shack
- Start date
Shadow Shack
SOC-12
It would have to be TL-11 by High Guard standards.
Supplements 7 & 9 both list the Gen-1 Type S at TL-9 with Jump-2 (and "get away with it" by claiming Book-2 design, which has no tech level rules).
No, it's not included on the base Type S either in Supplement-9...only the scoops are mentioned with the specific of no purification plant.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
You really need fuel purifiers in a LBB5 scout design, otherwise you will roll for misjump all the time. LBB2 was less detailed and simply declared all scout ships had that capability.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I agree, one of the added levels of detail in High Guard was how military ships and scouts can use unrefined fuel.
No fuel purifier no scout ship, it is purely civilian and must stick with refined fuel.
No fuel purifier no scout ship, it is purely civilian and must stick with refined fuel.
Shadow Shack
SOC-12
Well it looks like I'll need to shave 7 tons somewhere for a TL-11 purification plant. Having an extra 50% of range on both ends (jump and maneuver) is kind of a big deal for a next generation Scout/Courier, so it looks like the hold is going back to the Gen-1's three ton capacity.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
With the LBB5 system the extra fuel can be in Collapsible Tanks (TCS) in the cargo hold. That way the space can be used as cargo or extra fuel as needed.
Code:
QN-12222R1-000000-00000-0 MCr 41,5 100 Dton
bearing Crew=1
batteries TL=11
Cargo=14 Fuel=22 EP=2 Agility=2
Single Occupancy 14,9 51,7
USP # Dton Cost
Hull Custom 1 100
Configuration Cone 2 11
Scoops Streamlined 0,1
Armour 0
Jump Drive 2 1 3 12
Manoeuvre D 2 1 5 3,5
Power Plant 2 1 6 18
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-2, 4 weeks 2 22
Purifier 1 7 0
Bridge 1 20 0,5
Computer m/1bis R 1 1 4
Staterooms 4 16 2
Cargo 14,9
Collapsible Tanks 15 Dton 1 0,2 0
Empty hardpoint 1 1
Air/raft 4 Dton 1 4 0,6
Nominal Cost MCr 51,74 Sum: 14,9 51,7
Class Cost MCr 10,74 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 41,51Here 14.9 Dt can be used as cargo or fuel as needed, e.g. 11 Dt fuel and 3.9 Dt cargo.
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Shadow Shack
SOC-12
I'd thought about that, but then I might as well convert all 12 tons of additional fuel tankage beyond the Jump-2/Maneuver-2 requirements...and that would result in a 22 ton hold. Even the ten ton hold is pushing it for normal scout/courier duty, 22 puts it into mini-merchant speculative trading territory.
Not that it doesn't make for an attractive detached duty platform...but that's not what the scout service is all about.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
With a fuel purifier it's only 15 Dt free.
The IISS would need a distinct advantage to pay the 40% surcharge compared to a regular Type S. 10 Dt cargo or extra range might be enough?
Shadow Shack
SOC-12
I redid the image for the 3 ton hold that made room for the purification plant.
I think it depends on how you source your drives. In contrast to HG2 custom-built drives, off-the-shelf LBB2 drives may be specified at build as either military- or commercial-grade. Military drives burn unrefined fuel at no penalty. So, the traditional Type S burns unrefined fuel at no penalty -- in fact, being a Scout ship, it is actually less likely to Misjump than most other vessels. Fuel purification facilities are required for HG2 drives; LBB2 drives can be, depending on the ship's intended purpose, built to burn the raw stuff with no problems. Look under the "Starship Malfunctions" section of the "Travel" chapter; page numbers vary by edition, but it's right there for the reading regardless.
Also, I have always split hairs. Nowhere in LBB2 does it actually say that a Type S burns 20 dtons of fuel in 4 weeks; it merely says the 20 dtons is "sufficient" to allow 4 weeks' operation.
Of course it is sufficient for 28 days; it actually allows more like 40 weeks' operation (cf. Beltstrike, and do some reverse-engineering).
So, my inclination is to cut to 22 dtons internal fuel. The vessel is still regulation, in that it carries adequate fuel for one Jump-2, as well as having a minimum internal tankage of powerplant number times ten dtons.
(It drove me nuts trying to rationalize why a Plant-A uses twice as much fuel in a Type S as it does in a Type A. Then I figured: make it a safety requirement, not an operational one -- a ship must have fuel for 0.1MJn and 10Pn, whichever is greater, to be legal and spaceworthy.)
And now you have a Type S with a two-parsec range, a month's worth of endurance, and an extra 18 dtons to play with. Note that LBB2 allows J-2 at TL9; TL-dependant Jump limits are a limitation of HG2 custom drives, not LBB2 off-the-shelf ones. Check LBB3 for TL limits on drive models and computers.
(Then go out and built yourself a 400-dton, Jump-5 courier at TL11 under LBB2 and watch Mail get really, really important IYTU.)
Furthermore, once you start gutting fittings to convert a Type S into a Type J, you end up with all kinds of room in there to refit. At a minimum a compter Model/2 is a must-have, for instance... as well as a big, fat collapsible tank.
And at TL12, you can cram Jump-6 into a 400Td hull under LBB2 ('81), but just barely. It's an overgrown XBoat though, and the 6-man crew is 2 to a stateroom. There's 4 tons left for cargo/databanks/low berths.
Allow the power-down rules from TCS/JTAS 14 and you can have 1 week of Pn 1 fuel (2.5 tons) in addition to the Jump-6 and Pn 6 during the Jump (only 1.5 tons cargo, though).
You can trade one of the three staterooms for a 1G maneuver drive and turret if almost all of the crew is qualified to fill two positions each.*
Allow the collapsible tank rules from TCS/JTAS 14 to make 17.5 tons** of the fuel tank collapsible. That way, when you enter Jump Space for a J-6, the crew gets an extra 4 staterooms worth of elbow room for the next week and a half. If you're only doing J-5, that 17 Td space can also be used for cargo.
And if you almost never need the full J-6 capability, use that cargo bay to install a removable 17-ton module with 2 staterooms, an Air/Raft, and 5 tons cargo. Now you have 4 staterooms total, an Air/Raft, and a small cargo bay...
... just like a Scout/Courier.
Yeah, took me a while to bring this back on topic, but there ya go.
* Pilot/Navigator, Engineer, Engineer/Medic, Engineer/Gunner
**All of the powerplant fuel for one week at Pn6 and one week at Pn1. The fuel for a J-6 has to be in hard tanks, power plant fuel doesn't. Given the transfer times for fuel from collapsible tanks, the pumps can keep up with even Pn6 fuel burn rates so there's no need to have the power plant fuel in the main tank to start with.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
LBB2'77 said:
Directly against the rules:
LBB2'80 said:
A Scout must have a minimum of 0.1 × 100 × J-2 + 10 × P-2 = 40 Dt fuel tankage.
If we use alternative tanks, such as demountable or collapsible tanks, then only jump fuel tanks can be replaced: Power plant fuel must always be in conventional fixed internal tanks.
TCS said:
And, of course, fuel in collapsible tanks may not be used directly:
TCS said:
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
To reduce fuel consumption, you have to power down for four weeks, so no J-6:
JTAS#14 said:
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
I get 44 tons overtonnage, so not possible:
Code:
Dual Occupancy LBB2 design -44 322,5
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Part Streaml Custom 4 400
Configuration Cylinder 3 40
Jump Drive M 6 1 65 120
Manoeuvre D B 1 1 3 8
Power Plant M 6 1 37 96
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-6, 4 weeks 6 300
Bridge 1 20 2
Computer m/6 6 1 7 55
Staterooms 3 12 1,5
Cargo
Nominal Cost MCr 322,5 Sum: -44 322,5
Class Cost MCr 67,73 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 290,25mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I have tried to reconcile the LBB2 power plant fuel requirement, but every handwave is sadly lacking. It just doesn't make sense.
No issues posting to this thread.
No issues posting to this thread.
Which is the solution to the Type S situation: fit the hull for drop tanks (it can take +100 dtons of them), then do not bother to ever mount them. Then you can gut the internal tankage down to 22 dtons total, preserving the operational range as mentioned previously.
Problem solved, for a mere KCr100.
Drop Tanks = :CoW:, but they are canon, and let you work around the 10Pn + .1MJn rule. Just mind your new bridge size and crew requirements and your original number of hardpoints as you increase overall displacement when sizing them.
The trick is that it has the same mission profile as the canon XBoat: one maximum-range jump and nothing else. It only needs 1 week of fuel for the powerplant (15 tons), not 4 weeks (60 tons). That's your 44 tons, with one left over for cargo.
Rules may assert that the powerplant fuel has to be in normal tankage. That said, fuel is transferred from collapsible tanks to main tankage in "about three hours" (TCS, p. 13).
Pn 6 uses 60 tons fuel over 4 weeks, which is 0.09 tons/hour. The fuel transfer for the Jump fuel is 240 tons in 3 hours, or 80 tons/hour. The transfer pumps therefore can push fuel into the main tanks nearly 900 times times faster than the powerplant uses it -- no problem. And it can be transferred before the Jump Drive empties the tanks (27 minutes to transfer, 2 20-minute HG turns to use all Jump fuel).
And as far as powering down, I'm assuming average burn rate for the week in Jump (Pn 6). If powerplant fuel burn rate during Jump is higher than the 4-week average, the canon XBoat is broken too...
Alternately, if any time during a 4-week period spent above Pn 1 means the full powerplant fuel allocation is used, a Type S has only 4 turns of 2G acceleration without burning its Jump fuel.
Here's why:
- Idled to Pn 1 it uses 10 tons in 4 weeks.
- Any time at all powered up to Pn 2 means it uses 20 tons.
- Minimum time to power up by 1 Pn is 1 turn, likewise to power down.
- Therefore, the minimum 2 turns at Pn 2 must use 10 tons of fuel, or 5 tons per turn.
- The powerplant fuel allocation for a Type S is 20 tons.
- 20 tons / 5 tons per turn = 4 turns.
... either that, or the TCS/JTAS 14 rule shouldn't be taken literally.
Pn 6 uses 60 tons fuel over 4 weeks, which is 0.09 tons/hour. The fuel transfer for the Jump fuel is 240 tons in 3 hours, or 80 tons/hour. The transfer pumps therefore can push fuel into the main tanks nearly 900 times times faster than the powerplant uses it -- no problem. And it can be transferred before the Jump Drive empties the tanks (27 minutes to transfer, 2 20-minute HG turns to use all Jump fuel).
And as far as powering down, I'm assuming average burn rate for the week in Jump (Pn 6). If powerplant fuel burn rate during Jump is higher than the 4-week average, the canon XBoat is broken too...
The canon XBoat is indeed broken.
With 50 tons fuel (J-4 plus 1 week of Pn 4), it's 3 Td too small.
But it can be tweaked to fit LBB2, barely.
Extrapolate a Model/3bis computer (3 tons, 36MCr, capacity 9/0) from the 1bis and 2bis. This saves 1 ton over the Mod/4.
Next, assume the pilot's stateroom is half-sized (double occupancy), saving 2 tons.
Now it's legit, albeit not for claustrophobes...
Otherwise:
2. It only needs 7 tons fuel, not 10, for the power plant for 1 week.
Or
3. It doesn't need any powerplant fuel at all, which was true when it was designed under 1st Edition rules (didn't need a power plant, either....)
Yeah, I know 2nd Edition broke it, but it's still canon.
With 50 tons fuel (J-4 plus 1 week of Pn 4), it's 3 Td too small.
But it can be tweaked to fit LBB2, barely.
Extrapolate a Model/3bis computer (3 tons, 36MCr, capacity 9/0) from the 1bis and 2bis. This saves 1 ton over the Mod/4.
Next, assume the pilot's stateroom is half-sized (double occupancy), saving 2 tons.
Now it's legit, albeit not for claustrophobes...
Otherwise:
2. It only needs 7 tons fuel, not 10, for the power plant for 1 week.
Or
3. It doesn't need any powerplant fuel at all, which was true when it was designed under 1st Edition rules (didn't need a power plant, either....)
Yeah, I know 2nd Edition broke it, but it's still canon.
Here's why:
- Idled to Pn 1 it uses 10 tons in 4 weeks.
- Any time at all powered up to Pn 2 means it uses 20 tons.
- Minimum time to power up by 1 Pn is 1 turn, likewise to power down.
- Therefore, the minimum 2 turns at Pn 2 must use 10 tons of fuel, or 5 tons per turn.
- The powerplant fuel allocation for a Type S is 20 tons.
- 20 tons / 5 tons per turn = 4 turns.
... either that, or the TCS/JTAS 14 rule shouldn't be taken literally.
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Use 77 edition LBB2 and apply the fudge that you don't need a power plant - pretty sure you can get a 200t jump 6 x-boat...
jump F 35t
fuel 120t
bridge 20t
computer 1t
crewx3 12t (p, e, m)
jump F 35t
fuel 120t
bridge 20t
computer 1t
crewx3 12t (p, e, m)
There's no plausible in-universe explanation.
The out-of-universe reason is that under the LBB2 paradigm, bigger was better, and bigger was a function of tech level due to drive size limits. The proportional reduction of fuel requirement as a percentage of hull size was just another way to advantage larger ships (the constant bridge size up to 1000Td was the other).
LBB5 shifted that to "high tech is better at any size" and vastly lowered powerplant fuel requirements because the power plants needed the option to be bigger for energy weapons.
The handwave I use IMTU for the extreme case of the Type S is that with careful fuel rationing, that extra fuel can enable an extra Jump-1 as I noted upthread. Otherwise? *shrug*
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