Wait... they didn't have a minimum computer size for Jump, other than being able to run the program? Weird.
CT Only: 2nd Generation Type-S
- Thread starter Shadow Shack
- Start date
Wait... they didn't have a minimum computer size for Jump, other than being able to run the program? Weird.
Use drop tanks and you can do it in 100 tons even in 2nd Edition.
Well, not Rules-as-written, but keep some internal fuel capacity for the powerplant plus a buffer tank for transferring from the drop tanks and it meets the spirit of the rules, if not the intent. But that starts getting away from the OTU...
Wait, one more bit of silliness: Hang a 1 Td drop tank (or, really, one of any size up to 100Td) on a Type S, and it's then only capable of Jump-1 and 1G... but for some reason the powerplant's fuel efficiency doubles. Huh?
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Odd you should mention drop tanks and jump 6 x-boats:
JTAS issue 2 TAS News section.
Don't recall any followup on that, aside from the fact that the 3I implemented a covert J-6 network under cover of Imperiallines shell corporations. It involved two classes of visually-identical 2000Td freighters, one J-2/2G and the other J-6/6G (both apparently built under LBB2 rules).
Shadow Shack
SOC-12
If it was under LBB-2 rules then some of those rules were handwaved...Book-2 only gives direct specifications for up to 1000 tons (as far as tonnage devoted to drives & PP) and a 2000 ton ship can only go up to 5G/Jump-5 with the maximum size 'Z' drives. Even so, the most you can get out of a 1000 ton ship is 3G/Jump-3 with the 165 devoted engineering tonnage, so even if you were to double that 165 for a 2000 ton ship (which, again, isn't even ruled but at this point pure speculation as it follows no pattern whatsoever) you're looking at 360 tons for PP/JD/MD-Z...which is more than the doubled value of 165.
Second Edition shows a Size Z Drives having a rating of 6 in a 2000 ton hull (LBB2 '81, p. 22), and lists ratings for hulls up to 5000 tons.
Jump Drive Z: 125Td, 240MCr.
P-Plant Z: 73Td, 192MCr.
Maneuver Z: 47Td, 96Mcr.
Drive Z yields a rating of 6 in hulls from 800-2000Td, 4 in a 3000Td hull, 3 in a 4000Td hull, and 2 in a 5000Td hull.
Neither version of the freighter uses a standard hull (LBB2 "standard" as per the table at the top left of p. 22).
Hulls with different drive bay sizes can be constructed at MCr 0.1 per ton, as per the paragraph below that table.
A volume discount probably applies.
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Marc has mentioned in the past that each edition is one historian's trivid simulation of the real past of the timeframe covered.
Shadow Shack
SOC-12
Huh, I have the 77 edition. I think I really need to break down and find a 81 edition as I keep finding more and more inconsistencies...
Just to compare (or contrast as it seems), 77 Book-2 lists the same at
Jump Drive Z: 125Td, 240MCr.
P-Plant Z: 73Td, 192MCr.
Maneuver Z: 47Td, 96Mcr. (same as your 81 info)
Drive Z yields a rating of 6 in hulls from 800-1000Td, 5 in a 2000Td hull, 4 in a 3000Td hull, 3 in a 4000Td hull, and 2 in a 5000Td hull. (highlighted figures being different from your 81 info)
JD-Z and PP-Z would never fit into the allocated 165 engineering tons for a 800-1000Td hull either.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
So you use a custom hull rather than a standard hull...
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Edit: Sorry, I see what you mean.
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
I've always assumed it's just a part of the general punishment of small ships in LBB2. The fixed bridge and pp fuel tax makes small ships inefficient, and consequently bigger ships relatively more efficient.
Fuel requirements are the great limitation on ship performance, if you start to fiddle with them you get a very different system.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I agree, but many people over the years have tried to use:
Oh, and while perusing LBB5 79 to see if it sheds any light I noticed this:
this is changed to:
Which belongs in the other thread about fuel...
to argue the contrary view that a minimum power plant must be installed.
Oh, and while perusing LBB5 79 to see if it sheds any light I noticed this:
page 17
this is changed to:
in HG 80.
Which belongs in the other thread about fuel...
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Standardized rough frontier WWII engineering rather then high performance LBB5 drives by Porsche.
Near universal availability of parts vs. high performance gotta go back to starports with that TL or above.
There.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I always figured the big bridges were all about automation, so a 2% of tonnage bridge requires all the crew, a scout ship bridge allows a single scout pilot to fly it.
That's a reasonable handwave, and I'd use it. Still seems like a rules artifact, but it's a tolerable one.
Then again, this was pretty much all new at the time, so I can forgive quite a bit.
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So, it has to be at least a Size A whether or not a Manuever Drive is installed?
It's not difficult to extrapolate a 1/2-A power plant from the table, if all you need is Pn 1 in a 100Td hull. (Note that this works for Jump Drives too, but not Maneuver Drives -- a 1/2-A MD would have zero volume.)
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
For the humble hundred tonner scoutship, I doubt that most examples will ever exceed jump factor three at technological level twelve.
Going to jump factor four would require advanced tweaking of fuel consumption and engine efficiency, and if automation is on the table, completely eliminating the bridge, an UberScout that depending on what ship design systems it originates from, might be able to achieve jump factor five.
Going to jump factor four would require advanced tweaking of fuel consumption and engine efficiency, and if automation is on the table, completely eliminating the bridge, an UberScout that depending on what ship design systems it originates from, might be able to achieve jump factor five.
The bridge isn't just the acceleration couches and consoles, it's also the scanners and comms units -- you can't completely eliminate them.
Ok, you could kind of adapt the "computer and a seat or two replaces a small-craft bridge, but counts as 1 Model number lower as a computer" rule. Maybe two model numbers lower for a starship, with the implication that it includes only minimal scanners and comms? It would also force a significant -DM for tasks requiring Pilot and Navigation skills.
Hmmn.
A down-rated computer and two seats (2 tons) replaces a 4-ton bridge -- half the tonnage. This might work out to a Mod/2 replacing 12 tons of bridge requirement on a non-starship so that the bridge+computer is 10 tons. A starship would need at least a Mod/3 (acting as a Mod/1) but at that point we're talking real money...
Ok, you could kind of adapt the "computer and a seat or two replaces a small-craft bridge, but counts as 1 Model number lower as a computer" rule. Maybe two model numbers lower for a starship, with the implication that it includes only minimal scanners and comms? It would also force a significant -DM for tasks requiring Pilot and Navigation skills.
Hmmn.
A down-rated computer and two seats (2 tons) replaces a 4-ton bridge -- half the tonnage. This might work out to a Mod/2 replacing 12 tons of bridge requirement on a non-starship so that the bridge+computer is 10 tons. A starship would need at least a Mod/3 (acting as a Mod/1) but at that point we're talking real money...
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It looks like the only ways to get high Jn in a 100Td hull under CT rules are:
1. Use LBB5 for the small Jump Drive and the lower powerplant fuel consumption, but you don't get J-3 until TL12 or J-4 until TL-13.
2. Use LBB2 '77 and use an undersized powerplant (or leave it out entirely; i.e. an XBoat).
3. Use LBB2 '81 and the TCS/JTAS 14 power-down rules to cut powerplant fuel to the bare minimum (1 week in Jump at full Pn, 1 week in normal space at Pn-1) and permanently downrate a Size B Jump Drive and powerplant to factor 3 -- or interpolate Size A-and-a-half drives from the drive table.
4. Adapt the "computer replaces small-craft bridge" rule to starships.
1. Use LBB5 for the small Jump Drive and the lower powerplant fuel consumption, but you don't get J-3 until TL12 or J-4 until TL-13.
2. Use LBB2 '77 and use an undersized powerplant (or leave it out entirely; i.e. an XBoat).
3. Use LBB2 '81 and the TCS/JTAS 14 power-down rules to cut powerplant fuel to the bare minimum (1 week in Jump at full Pn, 1 week in normal space at Pn-1) and permanently downrate a Size B Jump Drive and powerplant to factor 3 -- or interpolate Size A-and-a-half drives from the drive table.
4. Adapt the "computer replaces small-craft bridge" rule to starships.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
CT ships don't have volume allocated to life support or airlocks, so I've generally considered the Bridge volume to include at least a slice of those things. Rather like the Galleries in the Sulie are part of Bridge space.
