• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

6G ship acceleration limit

(BTW, son recently decide that things like "Dilithium Crystals" or the recent Trek movie's "Red Matter" are all "Isotopes of Unobtanium". He makes me so proud.)

BTW: http://www.graphene-info.com/graphene-mass-generation-image is a start on the graphene/mass thing.

I couldn't find any good references to the inertial/gravitational mass difference paper to see if anyone has actually followed up on it. (It's conventional wisdom that they're the same, and all our experiments to date seem to back that up, but it's a fun idea to imagine what we could do if they only APPEARED to be the same....)

A kid after his old man.

Interesting about gravity/acceleration. One theory is that time is only an apparency (note we only measure by observing motion in space, NEVER measure "time" itself) and the time slowdown due to gravity/acceleration is nothing more than the slowing of motion (matter & energy) due to the force on that vector. IF that is true, inertial compensation would negate time dilation when accelerating or being under tremendous gravity (black hole)... :alpha:
 
Sounds like the beginnings of E. E. 'Doc' Smith's "inertialess" drive!

I always liked the strange consequences of that drive.

A bit but, under this scenario constant acceleration/deceleration would still be in effect. One thing that Smith was internally inconsistent about was the ships not stopping when they hit space dust...
 
I think that the 6-G limit may gave something to do with the D6's used for the game.

LOL - of course, all the Traveller "tropes" are based on 6 and 16 due to the d6, hexagons and hexadecimal (like) systems used. Keeps things simple.

(I say "hexadecimal-like" because it's actually base 34, 0-9,A-Z minus I and O)

It's still fun to imagine "real" (ish) reasons why those limits might exist though.
 
What is the problem with turning a ship in space? Stop acceleration, use thrusters to rotate, restart acceleration. The high-g acceleration is always along the same axis of trust and the rest is done by low-accel thrusters. From the descriptions in Brilliant Lances this is what TNE assumed. And the "thrust drop of" when thrusting off-axis in Starship Operators hint at the same.

As for limits: IIRC TNE or GT had a "compensated g at TL" rule in ship construction limiting lower tech crafts in the thrust they could apply before g-forces came through. Nothing kept you from using accelleration couches etc. to partially compensate. And MT/TNE/GT have no hard "accelleration limit" anyway. Just the "how much engine can I put in the hull" problem.

As for radiation: MT and TNE had a minimum armor thickness requirement for spacegoing vessels to protect against micro-meteroids etc. And "Going places - barely" in Challenge dealt with low tech crafts and radiation in MT
 
Easy; Off thrust, rotate, thrust. What's the problem?

First one is a biggie...

How fast do you want to rotate? Too fast and you're going to bend the ship. Strong in thrust direction does not equate to strong in all directions. Go slow and your "turn" is large... which is the part that always irked me about "agility". A 6G 1Mton behemoth can "turn" as quick as a 6G 10ton fighter. Riiight...

Others maybe less so...

How fast again, imparting a huge whip effect on crew at the extremities could be unpleasant for them. High enough G's for even brief periods can be deadly.

It's not like you have wind resistance. :D

Not in space at least ;) But the Traveller rules allow a 1Mton behemoth to operate in atmo, at 6G, as agilely as a 10ton 6G fighter, in exactly the same way as in space. Tell me that makes sense :)
 
First one is a biggie...

How fast do you want to rotate? Too fast and you're going to bend the ship. Strong in thrust direction does not equate to strong in all directions. Go slow and your "turn" is large... which is the part that always irked me about "agility". A 6G 1Mton behemoth can "turn" as quick as a 6G 10ton fighter. Riiight...

Example: A large sphere. You can certainly turn fast enough. Even a needle config can flip fast enough.

How fast again, imparting a huge whip effect on crew at the extremities could be unpleasant for them. High enough G's for even brief periods can be deadly.

A ship would have to be EXTREMELY long and thin to exceed the 6G inertial comp, even at the ends. = Not a problem. Do the calcs.



Not in space at least ;) But the Traveller rules allow a 1Mton behemoth to operate in atmo, at 6G, as agilely as a 10ton 6G fighter, in exactly the same way as in space. Tell me that makes sense :)


The example is the definition of a "stretch". In 33 years of play I've never seen a dreadnought dogfighting in atmosphere...
 
A ship would have to be EXTREMELY long and thin to exceed the 6G inertial comp, even at the ends. = Not a problem. Do the calcs.

Ah, here we have a difference of interpretation causing different applications. My IC only, directly, compensates for drive generated changes. Your's apparently compensates for all changes. Even externally applied ones?

The example is the definition of a "stretch". In 33 years of play I've never seen a dreadnought dogfighting in atmosphere...

Not a stretch in my opinion, I'm making a point. Just because you've never seen it done doesn't mean anything, except that maybe the rules are wrong or the idea wasn't imagined by the writers. Or they had to trim to fit the rules into a reasonable package.

I've never done it either, not because I haven't wanted to, but because it is wrong in my opinion. And there'd be nothing to gain tactically if I tried it the way I feel it should work. If I were in a combat and tried to use an atmosphere (say, a gas giant) by diving my smaller ships into it, there's nothing to prevent my opponent's capital ships from following, at full thrust and agility, provided they have streamlining of course (and few wouldn't given the rules). And the ensuing dogfight in atmo, and under gravity, between a long, heavy, large capital ship and short, light, small fighters would be run EXACTLY the same as if they were in vacuum and deep space with ZERO performance difference. That makes sense? I'd like a little more veracity to my rules, without resorting to too many "magic tech" handwaves :)
 
Ah, here we have a difference of interpretation causing different applications. My IC only, directly, compensates for drive generated changes. Your's apparently compensates for all changes. Even externally applied ones?

I play it as written. A turn (and therefore angular momentum) in not externally caused.



Not a stretch in my opinion, I'm making a point. Just because you've never seen it done doesn't mean anything, except that maybe the rules are wrong or the idea wasn't imagined by the writers. Or they had to trim to fit the rules into a reasonable package.

I've never done it either, not because I haven't wanted to, but because it is wrong in my opinion. And there'd be nothing to gain tactically if I tried it the way I feel it should work. If I were in a combat and tried to use an atmosphere (say, a gas giant) by diving my smaller ships into it, there's nothing to prevent my opponent's capital ships from following, at full thrust and agility, provided they have streamlining of course (and few wouldn't given the rules). And the ensuing dogfight in atmo, and under gravity, between a long, heavy, large capital ship and short, light, small fighters would be run EXACTLY the same as if they were in vacuum and deep space with ZERO performance difference. That makes sense? I'd like a little more veracity to my rules, without resorting to too many "magic tech" handwaves :)

Actually, based on aerodynamics it wouldn't be run the same way. NO WHERE in trav rules does it state vacuum is treated as atmosphere. Point it out...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
For a ship a two thirds of a mile long, doing a 180 degree turn on its mid-point, the nose will sweep out around half a mile. Let's say it must perform its rotation in a tenth of a game turn to count as 'negligible' turning time compared with straight thrust time. From LBB2, we have:

T=2*Sqr(d/a),

so Sqr(d/a) = T/2

and d/a = (T/2)^2,

so a = d/((T/2)^2)

Now it has to accelerate and stop in this time, so the acceleration covers half the distance in half the time...

a = (0.00025 / (0.05/2)^2)

= 0.00025 / 0.025^2

= 0.00025 / 0.000625

= 0.4G

If my sums are right at this ungodly time of a morning. :nonono:

Even the extremities of a behemoth two thirds of a mile long will experience less than half a G in turning, and if you're using LBB5's 20 minute turns it becomes easier still.
 
The "big ships perfom like small ships" stuff is a CT problem. Other versions make a bigger difference and/or make athmosphere operations more complex
 
I wonder if big ships need to be "punished" more in the combat rules for their size.

The size DMs don't seem extreme enough, they need to reflect the capital ships sluggish twenty minute turn versus the light escorts twenty minute bout of pirouetting and dodging, here there, and everywhere.
 
...

= 0.4G

If my sums are right at this ungodly time of a morning. :nonono:

I won't try to check them or run them at the moment, but if you're right I withdraw the complaint :)

...it's just that I'm sure I've seen, and did run, the math ages ago and came up with much higher numbers :confused:
 
Back
Top