A Brief Timeline of Virus

[DED]

This is a synopsis based on the data in the Wiki! But, I only looked at Million and surrounding subsectors because that is where the campaign I'm running is set.

Mostly interpolation though. And many of the dates are of unpublished provenance (i.e. probably Peter Gray) but they mostly make a good story.

Yeah, making a case for events based on fan material versus canon isn't the same. The former provides for a sound argument when defending what one does in their TU or what might have happened in the OTU, but it shouldn't be treated as fact for the OTU.

Peter Gray wrote up some great stuff, but it won't ever be incorporated into the OTU because of his lousy attitude and hostile behavior towards MJD.

 

[DED]

It is effectively a straight line at this point so all Extents corewards have lost their minds and civiliations.

There's no evidence of that in the OTU. The EW greatly impacts psionics based civilizations because of its heavy psionic component. Naturally, the Zhos are the ones who take it on the chin (see signs of this in Survival Margin). There is no evidence that regular sentients are negatively impacted at all.

The dearth of civilizations in the coreward portion of the Extents can be explained away with economics.

Corsairs make their living through raiding, a time honored occupation that goes back millenia. Where are the juicy targets for raiding? Those hairless pinkie states who live rimward and trailing of Lair. All those corsairs are in need of offloading those goods--some for consumption, while some higher tech items get bought by entrepreneurial Vargr looking to reverse engineer it and manufacture it themselves (why should only a handful of wealthy Vargr own something great when millions of ordinary middle class Vargr can?). So civilization expands rimward and trailing, bringing with it support industries: agriculture, manufacturing, etc. States form (and dissolve) accordingly.

With no great hunting grounds coreward (meaning no sector-sized states), why expand in that direction?

Pretty sure this has all been laid out in either the AM3 or V&V supplements.

 

[GypsyComet]

The EW greatly impacts psionics based civilizations because of its heavy psionic component. Naturally, the Zhos are the ones who take it on the chin (see signs of this in Survival Margin). There is no evidence that regular sentients are negatively impacted at all.

Assuming we accept Marc's own book, Agent of the Imperium, into evidence, there is definitely a record of non psionic worlds getting badly handled by the Wave.

It is known the Protectorate survives after being stomped flat. It rebuilds on its own and it not really further mentioned. They do not encounter the Gods of Thunder and the veqeterian jihhad. The few other words mentioned say The Vargr Splinters are not really stable enough to have multi-world governments.

1248 also assumes MJD's version of the Wave, which is mostly a big EMP with a little psionic component. That is no longer the case. The Julians get less time to recover from Virus before the Wave sweeps over them. "Survive" is probably about right, but not to be taken optimistically.

 

[mike wightman]

To see what was originally intended when the wave hits see the comprehensive interview with Dave Nilsen.

 

[whartung]

To see what was originally intended when the wave hits see the comprehensive interview with Dave Nilsen.

Wasn't that posted here someplace?

 

[mike wightman]

Yes, here is the bit that is relevant - quote from Dave Nilsen:

What the Empress Wave was going to do when it arrived at a place, was to open sentient beings up to a few different results:
Non-psions: no change
Non-psions: development of psionic powers
Non-psions: development of psionic powers with communication with supraspace intellect
Psions: no change
Psions: development of expanded or new psionic powers, initially difficult to understand or control
Psions: psionic powers damaged or burned out by "power surge"
Psions: killed outright by "power surge"
Psions: Various of above plus "possession" by supraspace intellect

The possibilities above would have been placed in two matrices. One for referees who wanted to deal with things randomly (and I would have provided random or pseudo-random characteristics to associate these results with, as Traveller had already established that psionic talent is not based on genetics), and one for referees who knew how they wanted they campaigns to develop, and wanted to be able to deliberately apply the results above, and have justifications to do so.

And here is the link to the original thread, warning it is a long one:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=7434&highlight=ask+dave

 

[whartung]

Yes, here is the bit that is relevant - quote from Dave Nilsen:


And here is the link to the original thread, warning it is a long one:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=7434&highlight=ask+dave

Thanks! I've read it before, but I knew it was somewhere.

It would be curious how these two manifest differently:

Non-psions: development of psionic powers with communication with supraspace intellect
Psions: Various of above plus "possession" by supraspace intellect

And, of course, did the supraspace intellect trigger the Empress Wave.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Almost be definition, no.

It wasn't super-intelligent to have done so.

 

[DED]

Assuming we accept Marc's own book, Agent of the Imperium, into evidence, there is definitely a record of non psionic worlds getting badly handled by the Wave.

Ahhhh, haven't read that yet.

1248 also assumes MJD's version of the Wave, which is mostly a big EMP with a little psionic component. That is no longer the case. The Julians get less time to recover from Virus before the Wave sweeps over them. "Survive" is probably about right, but not to be taken optimistically.

I want to make sure that I'm reading this right. Was the EW re-formatted in Agent of the Imperium to be this all-encompassing hammer that destroys everything?

 

[mike wightman]

You haven't read the MgT retcons to the wave?

 

[DED]

You haven't read the MgT retcons to the wave?

No, I haven't. The only Mongoose product I own is MJD's Spinward Marches book as a friend highly recommended it to me.

Mongoose was initially billed as an update to CT, so I didn't feel like it was necessary after spending hundreds (thousands?) of dollars buying up all of the CT, MT, TNE, and T4 products.

If you don't mind, would you summarize them for me?

 

[GypsyComet]

The Mongoose (1st edition) Zhodani book was written by Don McKinney with Marc looking over his shoulder, so is less subject to Mongoose's foibles. The retcon came from Marc and was communicated through that book. More details then came about in Agent.

 

[mike wightman]

MWM doesn't know what the original nature of the Empress Wave was, and neither do the 'inner circle'. As a result MWM has made stuff up.

The most important thing to know is that the retconned wave now moves FTL rather than at lightspeed and as a result the 1248 setting is null and void.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

There's no evidence of that in the OTU. The EW greatly impacts psionics based civilizations because of its heavy psionic component. Naturally, the Zhos are the ones who take it on the chin (see signs of this in Survival Margin).

Not so. This was updated in the Mongoose Third Imperium books where "Yonder Chilling Thought" is more harsh to non-psions than Survival Margin and 1248 books. It is also described in more detail in Marc's Agent of the Imperium novel in the chapter involving the EW where the Wave drives the animals insane and even drives plant life into irregular growing seasons. The humans and non-sentients found are not stated as being psionic.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I want to make sure that I'm reading this right. Was the EW re-formatted in Agent of the Imperium to be this all-encompassing hammer that destroys everything?

Yes, unfortunately.

I personally do not like the change, as it invalidates much of Keepers/Bearers of the Flame/The Spinward States and the 4th Imperium described in the TNE and TNE1248 books.
1248 Map with faster deadlier EW position

The story of the Reformation Coalition/Freedom League and points Rimward do not change much as the Wave does not enter Old Expanses and Diaspora until 1322. While there are interactions between the Spinward Marches and the Coalition, their presence or absence does not impact the major plots in Coalition space (Children of Sandman, rise of Droyne, Hiver withdrawal, etc.)
1248 Map Map with faster deadlier EW in IY 1322

But that is the current situation. Like Marc said "I am bound by canon." Until it's not:coffeesip:

 

[Nathan Brazil]

MWM doesn't know what the original nature of the Empress Wave was, and neither do the 'inner circle'. As a result MWM has made stuff up.

The most important thing to know is that the retconned wave now moves FTL rather than at lightspeed and as a result the 1248 setting is null and void.

Marc (or his company) is the IP holder. So even if he did not know originally and "has made stuff up", canon is what he says it is. Even if he has dealt us a "Han shot first".
1248/The New New Era is listed as an "Important Eras in History" in the revised Traveller 5 rulebook. So something of the setting is still relevant besides merely the passage of years. :devil:
Until it is not.

 

[DED]

Wow. I appreciate the update guys. Thanks. I see that I was working with an antiquated set of "facts."

I find it hard to believe that MM didn't know what the original intent of the EW was. I realize that he was no longer at GDW during TNE's creation, but in the two plus decades since its demise something should've come his way, no?

I know for a fact that DN has been interviewed on various message boards talking about it and even if MM doesn't frequent fan sites, members of his inner circle do.

On top of that, he gave MJD and Avenger permission to wrap up the TNE story with the 1248 setting. Did he not pay any attention to the work done there with MJD's timeline?

Being cynical, I'm left with a couple of ideas:

1) MM hated TNE so much that he decided to retcon the EW to invalidate the setting out of existence. After all, the guy authorized GURPS' alternate time line where the Rebellion never happened.

2) This is an attempt to wipe the board clean of everything to make way for the Galaxiad product line, something that's still vaporware, unless there's been actual development on that front that I haven't heard about (clearly there's precedent for me not getting the memos. ).

Thoughts?

 

[whartung]

Wow. I appreciate the update guys. Thanks. I see that I was working with an antiquated set of "facts."

I find it hard to believe that MM didn't know what the original intent of the EW was. I realize that he was no longer at GDW during TNE's creation, but in the two plus decades since its demise something should've come his way, no?

I know for a fact that DN has been interviewed on various message boards talking about it and even if MM doesn't frequent fan sites, members of his inner circle do.

On top of that, he gave MJD and Avenger permission to wrap up the TNE story with the 1248 setting. Did he not pay any attention to the work done there with MJD's timeline?

Being cynical, I'm left with a couple of ideas:

1) MM hated TNE so much that he decided to retcon the EW to invalidate the setting out of existence. After all, the guy authorized GURPS' alternate time line where the Rebellion never happened.

EW didn't impact TNE and the Virus at all, it was destined to come later. TNE and the Virus is accepted Canon, EW or no. The Assassination happened, the War happened, the Virus happened. Obviously the next 50-100 years are "murky".

2) This is an attempt to wipe the board clean of everything to make way for the Galaxiad product line, something that's still vaporware, unless there's been actual development on that front that I haven't heard about (clearly there's precedent for me not getting the memos. ).

Galaxiad is pretty far in the future, so, not sure what much of anything happening now has a lasting impact on that (that is, anything that did have any impact can easily be mitigated between "now" and the Galaxiad if they wanted to). "Sure the Third Imperium collapsed after the Virus and Civil War tore it to shreds, but 200 years later, it was as strong as ever, and Norris is STILL ALIVE!"

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Being cynical, I'm left with a couple of ideas:

1) MM hated TNE so much that he decided to retcon the EW to invalidate the setting out of existence. After all, the guy authorized GURPS' alternate time line where the Rebellion never happened.

2) This is an attempt to wipe the board clean of everything to make way for the Galaxiad product line, something that's still vaporware, unless there's been actual development on that front that I haven't heard about (clearly there's precedent for me not getting the memos. ).

Thoughts?

Not just thoughts DED, perhaps an part of an answer based on the presumption to know Marc's mind. :CoW: OTOH, IF you don't believe me, click the links on my new and improved signature below to hear the words from Marc himself.. :coffeesip:
Some years ago Marc was interviewed at Gamehole Con and in it he gave his operating philosophy. He essentially said (my summary) he treats the story of the OTU in a process similar to improv. In good improv, you don't simply delete or retcon without explanation. When a change is introduced, whenever possible the change should keep the past, meshing with what has come before to a greater whole. He goes on to explain what he does not like about the OTU but he wont change now it, because

"I am bound by canon" - Marc Miller 2016.

That is why I place it in my signature.
My presumption is that Marc and the circle has not found a better solution to progress the story directly from the corner the OTU has been written into other than to pull ahead a few hundred years without saying what happened.

 

[DED]

I appreciate the replies, but MJD explained what the EW in the 1248 materials (which were done with MM's approval) was going to do and now you guys are telling me it was revised under the Mongoose masthead and with Agent of the Imperium with MM claiming he didn't know what it was going to do.

If I've got any of that wrong, please correct me.

I believe you, Nathan. I don't believe those that you're quoting though. They knew what they were doing all along.