A Couple Missile Opinions

[BRover]

Ok just for giggles.

. . .
6GJ=0.5x50xV^2 so V=sqrt240MJ so V is in the order of 15kmps

I have no idea why I just wasted my time doing this

Because Math is fun for nerds?

 

[kilemall]

No, the "ton" is the silly Traveller dTon, 14 cubic meters, which substantially filled with solid state capacitor of some sort averaging near half the density of iron would have a mass in the neighborhood of 54 tons (to make the math easy). 36 EP / 54 tons = 0.67 EP/ton. If the 50 kg were 60% capacitor, it would hold a mere 0.02 EP.

Again, I'm not really worrying about weight per se and there is a basic conflation of weight to volume metrics. That even snuck into the LBB8 Robots book. So especially with any kind of gravitic/reactionless drive (or reaction LESS in my case), I would tend to treat it all as volume measure not literal weight.


Oh and my conception of the capacitor is as metallic hydrogen, a materials tech side effect of gravitics. I'm guessing it would be something like 4-8x hydrogen weight, plus power interface and control equipment. Not light as fuel, but pretty much the lightest solid you'll run into.

 

[Straybow]

Metallic H is estimated to have a density of 0.4 = 400 kg/m³, about a tenth of my estimate for the handwavium capacitor. That helps but it's a bit of a stretch that mH can do that. It is still expected to be in a liquid state, unless you're at the core of a gas giant.

 

[Straybow]

Ok just for giggles.

0.02EP is 250MWx0.02 = 5MW or 5MJ per second.

We know a High Guard turn is 20x60=1200 so that gives us 6GJ of energy to play with.

6GJ=0.5x50xV^2 so V=sqrt240MJ so V is in the order of 15kmps

I have no idea why I just wasted my time doing this

:rofl:
Would you want to do maintenance, or even a weapons check, on a capacitor holding 6 GJ ??? An accidental short would be equivalent to 1.4 tons of TNT.

And for kilemall's mHyd idea, the binding energy of H2 is approximately 50 times that of an equivalent mass TNT. So 30 kg of mHyd would have explosive potential of 1500 kg TNT, which is essentially the same as above.

I surprise myself sometimes when the numbers kinda make sense.

 

[Proneutron]

I surprise myself sometimes when the numbers kinda make sense.

In all these years I've never been able to reconcile Trav missile ∆v with its size & TL of manufacture.

 

[mike wightman]

It was right there in D&D - the magic missile

If you can pack that sort of performance into a 50kg missile I can think of a lot more destructive ways to use the same technology.

 

[mike wightman]

:rofl:
Would you want to do maintenance, or even a weapons check, on a capacitor holding 6 GJ ??? An accidental short would be equivalent to 1.4 tons of TNT.

Not much different to a weapons check in a modern naval destroyer main gun magazine

I doubt if they would be carried in the charged configuration - you probably have to charge them up pre-combat...

wait, what am I talking about, the idea is completely nuts.

 

[Straybow]

Not much different to a weapons check in a modern naval destroyer main gun magazine

I doubt if they would be carried in the charged configuration - you probably have to charge them up pre-combat...

wait, what am I talking about, the idea is completely nuts.

Exactly, the missile propulsion capacitor has the explosive potential of the entire magazine full of 5 inch shells... So, you charge up the missile during the 20 minute combat turn to then launch it. But what happens when you've charged it up but combat ends? Now you have this 1.5 ton TNT bomb equivalent to disarm by gradual discharge (maybe putting it back into a capacitor bank) before you stow the missile back in the magazine.

There was an unfortunate mechanic who was working on a Tesla and accidentally shorted the battery. He was vaporized. That, times 1000 or so?

 

[Straybow]

This also means the 1 dTon 36 EP capacitor is holding 10.5 TJ... equivalent to 2.5kT of TNT if released by a hit from a laser or kinetic penetrator. Like a main gun magazine hit a la RMS Hood.

 

[Proneutron]

This also means the 1 dTon 36 EP capacitor is holding 10.5 TJ... equivalent to 2.5kT of TNT if released by a hit from a laser or kinetic penetrator. Like a main gun magazine hit a la RMS Hood.

Holy.... If you are a ship ready to jump don't take a hit to your Jump capacitors.

 

[mike wightman]

It may explain the critical result ship vapourised though...

 

[kilemall]

Came back to this and found we wonked out but didn’t answer the questions-

* Is having the missiles go fast enough to chase down ships a key game value/conception for you?

* Is the missile supplement valuation of nuclear warheads in line with their game value?

 

[Spinward Flow]

* Is having the missiles go fast enough to chase down ships a key game value/conception for you?

When targets can outrun the missiles ... that kind of negates the value of the missiles as effective weapons.

 

[kilemall]

When targets can outrun the missiles ... that kind of negates the value of the missiles as effective weapons.

Yet if I am gathering what many have posted in other threads, missiles were interpreted as only having a few burns and were thus limited range weapons largely dependent on platform vector vs the target.

 

[Dragoner]

I have done missiles as Book 2, they hit next turn, so pretty fast. Nuclear is off the table for the most part.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Yet if I am gathering what many have posted in other threads, missiles were interpreted as only having a few burns and were thus limited range weapons largely dependent on platform vector vs the target.

Think about it in terms of real world air-to-air missile ranges.
There are missiles hanging off wing pylons with in excess of 100+ miles of (publicized) range to hit targets.

Those numbers are usually referring to "head on" closing distances.
In terms of "nose to tail" ranges where the missile needs to pursue you can sometimes take those fast closing speed publicized ranges and figure only about 10-15% effective range to target if the missile needs to pursue and catch up to the target under its own power.

So vectors can make a LOT of difference in those air-to-air scenarios in terms of how "long" your missile range is to a hostile target.

If you're actually "mapping space" that ships are flying through and doing missile vectors and evasion ... that's when the capacity of missiles to "turn and burn" in pursuit can become extremely relevant depending on the context of the engagement (and the sensor ranges involved).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

* Is having the missiles go fast enough to chase down ships a key game value/conception for you?

Yes, missiles are supposed to work.

* Is the missile supplement valuation of nuclear warheads in line with their game value?

No, in the Missile Supplement they are just a deus ex machina device that kills a ship if it "hits". I mean IIRC 50 hits disables just about any LBB2 design.

In any other Traveller system they are more or less routinely used by navies and are quite survivable (by warships), except en masse.

 

[whartung]

Well, I'm more akin to the Star Cruiser/TNE/Brilliant Lances world of "missiles" than the off the rails dog fighting robotech missiles. I don't think the Traveller games deal with the "missile as kinetic kill" vehicle mechanic very well. TNE pretty much assumes that actual impact is a very rare event, LBB don't deal with the kinetic energy issues much at all (even though it, ostensibly, support impact missiles).

Missiles are more a space control, "mine" like situation than a turn and burn thing. Get too close, and they zap you. It works in most of the games as a "close combat" weapon, within a couple of hexes range, but not a "chase them across the quadrant" thing. Because the power is in that ability to burn 6Gs of maneuver in one turn, which far outpaces most civilian craft. 6 hexes of range is actually rather far in terms of DMs for things like laser fire. In Mayday, it's a -1 DM per hex, so 6 hexes is -6 DM.

So, in that sense, missiles are very good at closing the gap, once you get "close". The goal being to get within range of the intruder to where they cannot maneuver out of the envelope of your vector plus the 6Gs of the missile in time.

In all of the Traveller systems, the game turns are too long to really respect the "turn and burn" aspect of missiles. Similarly the ranges are too long.

 

[Drew]

With missiles, if you can't outrun them, you have to be agile enough to dodge them; they could, of course, reacquire the target.

I was thinking of a variation of the SEARAM or CWIS or a variation of the Metal Storm weapon system mounted as a defensive weapon. Submarines carry the AN/SLQ-25 Nixie which are used to lure torpedoes away from them. While ECM jamming is always in the computer system; a variation of the ADC MK3 expendable decoy could be used to decoy/lure an incoming missile (assumption that they are "dumb" or fire and forget weapons system.

​

 

[Drew]

In TNE, of course, your missile can be as fast as you want. Then again, so can the ships. (Mind I do not know what, if any, limits their are on gravitic compensation for ships -- people don't do well at high Gs for sustained periods.)

In CT we simply didn't have (or were not allowed) to have a faster than 6G drive.

Being able to outrun missiles is an important aspect as it basically empower maneuverability to affect outcomes and be used as a tactic.

If the missile are too fast, then I won't bother "dodging" them, or trying to out run them, I'll simply armor up and build more point defense to counter them directly.

In SFB (I know, I know, I keep coming back to it, but it's really good at this kind of stuff) it's not uncommon to see ships fleeing seeking weapons. This gives the weapons power not so much in their ability do actual damage (though, of course, that is there), but it their ability to control space an territory.

You'll see ships closing, then someone lobs out a cloud of drones or plasma torpedoes, and watch the attackers fire (at a longer range than they'd have liked), turn tail, and run. You'll see folks fire them not so much to damage the attackers, but to make them turn away. Keep them out of overload range, give you some space. Heavy drone users are skilled at using them to control the board. Nothing like letting a lingering scatter pack (a space shuttle filled with 6 drones...or is it?) as a deterrent to keep folks away.

If that can't work, if you can't out avoid these seeking weapons, then...you won't. You'll just armor up, bite down hard, and try to shoot them out of the sky, and eat what's left over but never losing your focus on closing with your real target. It's not that they're not a deterrent, but the opponent can't do much about them. That makes the ship carrying them a deterrent (since they may let fly at any time), but not the missiles themselves. They're just an artifact of damage coming your way just like a meson beam.

This is a key, to me, issue with the game play in general, about "space combat". It's just a slugfest in open space. Who can do the most damage to who, faster. Just two armored boxes running in close to each other, firing as often as they can hoping they open up the other guy first. Pedal to the metal, *WHAM**WHAM**WHAM**WHAM**WHAM**WHAM**WHAM* until somebody breaks.

There's no dance.

In Ouray, a town in Colorado. On the 4th of July (I should say, on the the 4th of July I happened to be there, but it felt like an annual event), they would cordon off one of the down town intersections. It would be surrounded by spectators. Then they would hook up firehoses to the juxtaposed hydrants kitty corner from each other.

Two teams of 3 (maybe for) folks in padded rain suits, safety goggle, and plastic face masks would then pick up their respective firehouse, turn them on full blast, and proceed to pound the other team with it. Each team would then close on each other, occasionally rotating the person in front to the back, until they're on top of each other. Hoses pummeling them until, eventually, one of the teams succumbs.

The one I saw, it seemed that one of the teams lead guy managed to take the stream of water under the chin. His mask went flying one way, he went flying the other, the hose got loose and the water scythed in to the crowd like a bunch of suicidal groupies before they managed to get it under control.

Space combat, I think, is something like that.

Would a ship go into a protective mode of venting the atmosphere (everybody suits up) to prevent explosive decompression when a missile strikes a craft?