A Modern Frigate Size Vessel for Comparison

[PFVA63]

Hi,

Based on some posts in the TNE Errata thread, I looked up some info on a notional frigate size vessels for comparison to Traveller space requirement rules.

Although this notional frigate design is a student design from the Naval Post Graduate School's Total Ship Systems Engineering program, it was done using a standard US Navy tool for ship design, which I believe incorporates many fairly current US Navy practices and recommendations on space requirements etc. The specific design was called the Regional Deterrence Ship and the report developed for it can be found here (http://www.nps.edu/academics/gseas/tsse/subpages/1992Project.html). Overall this ship has a total enclosed internal volume of 666137.8 cu ft which equates to 1347.4 Traveller dtons.

The ship also has total accommodations for 192 persons, which includes 21 Officers, 24 CPOs, and 147 enlisted personnel.

If you just consider the berthing and sanitary spaces for all these personnel the deck area required for an officer works out to a little over 100 sq ft per officer, about 38.8 sq ft per CPO, or about 23 sq ft per enlisted person. Looking at typical Traveller starship maps, a standard "deck square" is about 24 to 25 sq ft depending on rules system, which would suggest about ~50 sq ft per dton. As such, the data for the notional frigate suggests the berthing and sanitary requirements for an officer is about 2dtons (or so), for a CPO maybe about 0.75 dtons or so, and for an enlisted person about 0.5 dton or so.

In addition to this though, there's other stuff to also consider including; General Sanitary Spaces, Ship Rec Facilities, Food Service Spaces, Food Service Spaces, Food Storage & Issue, Med & Dental, Ship Store Spaces, Laundry, Barber, Postal Facilities, Religious Serv Spaces, Personnel Stores, CBR Protection, Life Jackets, etc, plus the Sewage Sys. Including these adds about another 1.18 dtons per person.

In addition to this there are also spaces such as; Damage Control Spaces, Ship Admin spaces, A/C plant, Refrigeration plant, Storerooms & Issue Rms, and Accesses/passageways to be considered. If these were added it would account for another 0.91 dtons per person. Finally, there is also the tankage requirements for items such as Fresh Water and Sewage, which would add another 0.01 dtons/person

Adding this all up would equate to maybe around 4.2 dtons or so for Officers, 2.9 (or so) for CPOs, and maybe about 2.6 dtons per enlisted person.

 

[Timerover51]

Ah, but you are now adding all of those nasty Real World things that no one but me cares about. That is a pretty manpower intensive ship though, at least for the current navy, where the pressure is on to minimize crew number whenever possible.

I find it amazing that they could put over 450 crew on a ship the size of the frigate USS Constitution, which would be much smaller and lighter than this design.

 

[rancke]

Adding this all up would equate to maybe around 4.2 dtons or so for Officers, 2.9 (or so) for CPOs, and maybe about 2.6 dtons per enlisted person.

Interesting. Most comments on Traveller spaceboat/starship staterooms have been that you should be able to stuff a lot more people into the canonical space, but your figures are higher. A single stateroom takes up 4 dT total, half that with double occupancy.

One thing I think is lacking is a distinction betwee civilian craft designed to carry passengers for ten days tops and able to replenish supplies every ten days and military craft designed to be able to button up for at least a full month between ports[*].

Don't get me wrong. I'm OK (sort of) with saying that in the Imperium, they build civilian ships to the same standard as military. Some sort of cultural whatchamacallit, no doubt. But I think any rules with any pretention to genericity should provide referees the option of making their civilian ships more cost-effective and giving their military ships a greater endurance.

(Also, I'd really like it if ships that misjumped into deep space wouldn't turn into mass graves in a mere month).

[*] I actually think that some admirals might prefer it if their ships could stay out a bit longer than a month.​

Hans

 

[aramis]

Ah, but you are now adding all of those nasty Real World things that no one but me cares about.

No, we just prefer such things abstracted, because we don't want to have to figure them out to slap a ship together that the PC's are just going to blast out of space.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening PFVA63,

Nice work.

Hi,

Based on some posts in the TNE Errata thread, I looked up some info on a notional frigate size vessels for comparison to Traveller space requirement rules.

The topic over on the TNE errata started out about the size difference between the TNE and CT emergency low berth and somehow drifted to bunks. The closest I can come, at least for military ships, for requirements is the T9640-AB-DDT-010/HAB Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual which can be found at http://www.habitability.net/ . The site is the USN Shipboard Habitability Improvement Program.

Although this notional frigate design is a student design from the Naval Post Graduate School's Total Ship Systems Engineering program, it was done using a standard US Navy tool for ship design, which I believe incorporates many fairly current US Navy practices and recommendations on space requirements etc. The specific design was called the Regional Deterrence Ship and the report developed for it can be found here (http://www.nps.edu/academics/gseas/tsse/subpages/1992Project.html). Overall this ship has a total enclosed internal volume of 666137.8 cu ft which equates to 1347.4 Traveller dtons.

The ship also has total accommodations for 192 persons, which includes 21 Officers, 24 CPOs, and 147 enlisted personnel.

If you just consider the berthing and sanitary spaces for all these personnel the deck area required for an officer works out to a little over 100 sq ft per officer, about 38.8 sq ft per CPO, or about 23 sq ft per enlisted person. Looking at typical Traveller starship maps, a standard "deck square" is about 24 to 25 sq ft depending on rules system, which would suggest about ~50 sq ft per dton. As such, the data for the notional frigate suggests the berthing and sanitary requirements for an officer is about 2dtons (or so), for a CPO maybe about 0.75 dtons or so, and for an enlisted person about 0.5 dton or so.

The square footage depends on the officers position and rank the Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual lists the square footage of officers quarters for ships between 150 to over 600 feet in a table.

CO single stateroom Hulls 150' - 300': 40 - 50 square feet; 301' - 600': 55 - 70 square feet; over 600': 65 - 90 square feet

XO single stateroom Hulls 150' - 300': 35 - 40 square feet; 301' - 600': 40 -55 square feet; over 600': 45 - 70 square feet

Dept. Head single stateroom Hulls 150' - 300': 30 square feet; 301' - 600': 30 -45 square feet; over 600': 45 - 60 square feet

Single stateroom Hulls 150' - 300': N/A; 301' - 600': 35 square feet; over 600': 35 - 50 square feet

Double stateroom Hulls 150' - 300': 20 square feet; 301' - 600': 22 square feet; over 600': 35 square feet

Officers Bunkroom Hulls 150' - 300': 20 square feet; 301' - 600': 20 square feet; over 600': 20 square feet

In addition to this though, there's other stuff to also consider including; General Sanitary Spaces, Ship Rec Facilities, Food Service Spaces, Food Service Spaces, Food Storage & Issue, Med & Dental, Ship Store Spaces, Laundry, Barber, Postal Facilities, Religious Serv Spaces, Personnel Stores, CBR Protection, Life Jackets, etc, plus the Sewage Sys. Including these adds about another 1.18 dtons per person.

In addition to this there are also spaces such as; Damage Control Spaces, Ship Admin spaces, A/C plant, Refrigeration plant, Storerooms & Issue Rms, and Accesses/passageways to be considered. If these were added it would account for another 0.91 dtons per person. Finally, there is also the tankage requirements for items such as Fresh Water and Sewage, which would add another 0.01 dtons/person

Adding this all up would equate to maybe around 4.2 dtons or so for Officers, 2.9 (or so) for CPOs, and maybe about 2.6 dtons per enlisted person.

I wished that PFVA63 had been designing the spaces instead of what T9640-AB-DDT-010/HAB Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual lists.

 

[Hal]

Rather than hi-jack this thread, I'm going to start a new thread, regarding crewing needs for warships of the Imperium, and post one of my GURPS TRAVELLER specs for internal modules that's not even "typical" for standard GURPS warships...

 

[BytePro]

Interesting writeup PFVA36!

In addition to this there are also spaces such as; Damage Control Spaces, Ship Admin spaces, A/C plant, Refrigeration plant, Storerooms & Issue Rms, and Accesses/passageways to be considered. If these were added it would account for another 0.91 dtons per person. Finally, there is also the tankage requirements for items such as Fresh Water and Sewage, which would add another 0.01 dtons/person

Adding this all up would equate to maybe around 4.2 dtons or so for Officers, 2.9 (or so) for CPOs, and maybe about 2.6 dtons per enlisted person.

Of the 0.91 dtons - most of that volume would be included in the Bridge and Engineering spaces in a Traveller (CT) design. Leaving less than 2 dtons for enlisted (double bunked) and less than 4 dtons for officers.

This brings the 4 dton stateroom, which includes non-detailed personnel space, in line with your numbers pretty nicely. If this is 'fairly current US Navy', such is a lot roomier than in days gone by (ala timerover51's reference) - so I can see it for commercial traffic.

Deckplan designs tend to work out, if one factors in 'fitting' to 1.5m squares. The 'within x %' design rule and typical 3m high decks offsets this, IME.

I do wonder if you included 'deck space', in your calcs. That's a lot of square footage for folks to move around on a passenger liner, say, though I'm not sure how relevant to a working ship not involved in fishing or rigging sails.

 

[rancke]

There are two important factors to take into account before accepting the analogy as valid. One is what difference being in space rather than on the sea makes, and the other is which of these functions take up less space at higher tech levels.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Your statement is purely subjective. Given we are talking about fiction and a game - and what people can relate to - shipboard life seems a fair enough analogy.

The volumes for submariner and ISS life support and such might be a better analogy in reference to LS and environment, but what Traveller presumes, not to mention purely speculative TL, is different enough that the analogy probably holds no better. As most people can't relate to such environments, ships make a better analogy from that point of view.

For business I have spent up to several weeks essentially confined in hotel environments - these would also make good enough analogies for gaming purposes, considering hotels which maintain full dining, laundry, HVAC and internalize some degree of water and sewer processing. The bottom end amount of 'living' space for a individual and be realized in terms of prisoner confinement (i.e. a cell) - the added volume to support life in space as Traveller and individual Refs presume, are going to be pure fiction.

 

[DangerousThing]

Your statement is purely subjective. Given we are talking about fiction and a game - and what people can relate to - shipboard life seems a fair enough analogy.

The volumes for submariner and ISS life support and such might be a better analogy in reference to LS and environment, but what Traveller presumes, not to mention purely speculative TL, is different enough that the analogy probably holds no better. As most people can't relate to such environments, ships make a better analogy from that point of view.

For business I have spent up to several weeks essentially confined in hotel environments - these would also make good enough analogies for gaming purposes, considering hotels which maintain full dining, laundry, HVAC and internalize some degree of water and sewer processing. The bottom end amount of 'living' space for a individual and be realized in terms of prisoner confinement (i.e. a cell) - the added volume to support life in space as Traveller and individual Refs presume, are going to be pure fiction.

I spend a couple months each year in a hotel while waiting for my wife to recover from surgery.

However, while I do spend a lot of time in that room, I can always wander about the hospital (and the Cleveland Clinic is rather large and is connected to the hotel), or even drive somewhere if I choose. In a space ship, I'd be stuck in a stateroom or what common areas they have.

 

[PFVA63]

Interesting writeup PFVA36!


Of the 0.91 dtons - most of that volume would be included in the Bridge and Engineering spaces in a Traveller (CT) design. Leaving less than 2 dtons for enlisted (double bunked) and less than 4 dtons for officers.

This brings the 4 dton stateroom, which includes non-detailed personnel space, in line with your numbers pretty nicely. If this is 'fairly current US Navy', such is a lot roomier than in days gone by (ala timerover51's reference) - so I can see it for commercial traffic.

Deckplan designs tend to work out, if one factors in 'fitting' to 1.5m squares. The 'within x %' design rule and typical 3m high decks offsets this, IME.

I do wonder if you included 'deck space', in your calcs. That's a lot of square footage for folks to move around on a passenger liner, say, though I'm not sure how relevant to a working ship not involved in fishing or rigging sails.

Hi,

Yeah, I assumed that maybe the Damage Control and Ship Admin spaces might fall into the "Bridge and Basic Controls" grouping of Traveller but I was wondering if whether the Air Conditioning (A/C) and Refrigeration plant might not be considered as kind of "Life Support" systems and whether the Access/Passageways would fall into living spaces, Bridge & control spaces, and/or be split amoung several groups. As for the store and issue rooms, I wasn't sure where best those might be accounted for in a Traveller like vessel.

 

[BytePro]

Yeah - I'm thinking such would be incorporated in several areas. In my plans its most of that 0.91 tons (.7~.8 I'd guesstimate). Even if it were only half, the numbers still come out close enough to Traveller for me, and fall within the +/-% design rules.

HVAC I would consider more LS - and part of the 'extra' stateroom tonnage. Hull and engineering would, however, cover overall insulation/thermal dissipation - the more challenging space related aspects - with the HVAC simply adjusting from there. I.e. relatively small volume of the overall living space allotment.

Spaceship systems and operational spaces - Engineering, Bridge, Holds, Weapon Bays - I would think would have a good portion of the access/passageways. At least in a 'working'/military spaceship. But, perhaps your source numbers don't reflect that? (I.e. you were only counting such that allowed access to quarters and other crew/passenger spaces?).

Store and issue rooms I'm not sure - in part thinking that ship's lockers perform part of this role. Military spaceships designed for patrols, or commercial infra-system 'cruise' spaceships would have dedicated needs, IMO.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy PFVA63

Hi,

Yeah, I assumed that maybe the Damage Control and Ship Admin spaces might fall into the "Bridge and Basic Controls" grouping of Traveller but I was wondering if whether the Air Conditioning (A/C) and Refrigeration plant might not be considered as kind of "Life Support" systems and whether the Access/Passageways would fall into living spaces, Bridge & control spaces, and/or be split amoung several groups. As for the store and issue rooms, I wasn't sure where best those might be accounted for in a Traveller like vessel.

My take is that A/C and Refrigeration is part of the life support.

A passageway carries one from point A to point B which can pass through any number of spaces.

Store and issue rooms are accounted for as taking up volume and designated as to purpose. Electronic Equipment stores is a designated type of cargo hold that might take up 1 dton of volume. The Ship's locker is another designated type of cargo space.

At least that is how I wrap my head around all the above.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

It looks like I may have made an error in my original post. The 0.91 dtons/person is only for Accesses & Passageways. If you include Damage Control Spaces, Ship Admin spaces, A/C plant, Refrigeration plant, Storerooms & Issue Rms, this would be a total of 1.75 dtons/person.

Here is a better breakdown of these items;

Damage Control - 0.05 dtons/person
Ship Admin - 0.14 dtons/person
Air Conditioning & Refrigeration - 0.25
Storerooms & Issue Rms - 0.41 dtons/person
Accesses - 0.91 dtons/person

I can see how some of these items might be better grouped as part of Traveller's Bridge & Basic Controls or Machinery or such, but I was thinking that maybe a big part of A/C & Refrigeration related stuff and a big part of passageways and access might maybe be part of Traveller's Accommodations group as a lot of times I hear how people assume that the 4 dtons of space per person for accommodations in Traveller may include some Life Support (in the overheads) and some access/passages through these spaces.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello PFVA63,

Hi,

It looks like I may have made an error in my original post. The 0.91 dtons/person is only for Accesses & Passageways. If you include Damage Control Spaces, Ship Admin spaces, A/C plant, Refrigeration plant, Storerooms & Issue Rms, this would be a total of 1.75 dtons/person.

Here is a better breakdown of these items;

Damage Control - 0.05 dtons/person
Ship Admin - 0.14 dtons/person
Air Conditioning & Refrigeration - 0.25
Storerooms & Issue Rms - 0.41 dtons/person
Accesses - 0.91 dtons/person

I can see how some of these items might be better grouped as part of Traveller's Bridge & Basic Controls or Machinery or such, but I was thinking that maybe a big part of A/C & Refrigeration related stuff and a big part of passageways and access might maybe be part of Traveller's Accommodations group as a lot of times I hear how people assume that the 4 dtons of space per person for accommodations in Traveller may include some Life Support (in the overheads) and some access/passages through these spaces.

The assumption of what a stateroom includes comes from CT Book 5 page 33:

Staterooms require four tons at a cost of Cr500,000. Staterooms actually average about two tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galley and recreation areas.

MT RM page 60 shows that the rules are a little more flexible on occupancy.

Staterooms: Dual occupancy staterooms are computed at MCr0.25 and two tons per person. It is not necessary to purchase an entire stateroom just to accommodate an odd number of crew members; a half-stateroom or large triple-occupancy stateroom can be built.

TNE FF&S Mk 1 Mod 1 page 78 appears to return to the CT requirements.

Craft which will house passengers and crew for more than 24 hours require extended accommodations. Passengers and crew require bunks for short trips of several days, provided they understand that accommodations are to be austere. Staterooms are required for paying passengers. Each High Passage passenger requires one stateroom (large or small). Middle Passage passengers require one stateroom (large or small) in the Regency, but are placed two to a large stateroom in the
Wilds (never two to a small).

Civilian crew are usually accommodated two to a large stateroom, or one to a small stateroom in the case of officers.

Military crew are usually accommodated at best like civilian crew, but will often be carried at double occupancy (two per small, four per large stateroom) or greater, or even housed in bunks. Bunks may be multiple-occupied by "hot bunking," by sleeping in three shifts per 24-hour period.

Officers will not sleep in bunks, nor accept worse than double occupancy.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

The Ship's locker is another designated type of cargo space.

Actually, Ship's Locker is part of the Bridge space, I'm pretty certain. (Though, I suppose that doesn't necessarily contradict your statement, just one way I read it.)

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Fritz_Brown,

Actually, Ship's Locker is part of the Bridge space, I'm pretty certain. (Though, I suppose that doesn't necessarily contradict your statement, just one way I read it.)

From CT Book 2 page 15:

Ship's Locker: Every ship has a ship's locker. The actual cost of much of the equipment within the locker is inconsequential when compared to hull and drive costs; the referee should administer what is actually within the ship's locker based on the situation. Typical equipment carried aboard will include protective clothing, vacc suits, weapons such as shotguns or carbines, pistols, compasses, and survival aids, and portable shelters.


My take from the above is that the Ship's Locker can be located anywhere the designer wants to put one in my choice is usually adjacent to an airlock since vacc suits are typically stored in them. Many Traveller deck plans appear to locate an airlock near the bridge.

Any space used as storage in a very broad sense holds a form of cargo. Cargo spaces can be located anywhere and be of any size on a ship.

I don't know about you but when I played a shipboard scenario most of the time the referee usually said the item I wanted from the ship's locker was missing or broken, especially if the item would have helped get the party out of a sticky situation.

 

[Vargas]

If you want real world numbers you might want to look for the US Navy PDF "Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual" 'cause it's got them.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Vargas,

Thanks for dropping by and providing a source that might be helpful.

If you want real world numbers you might want to look for the US Navy PDF "Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual" 'cause it's got them.

This is getting scary since I've also recommended looking at T9640-AB-DDT-010/HAB Shipboard Habitability Design Criteria Manual which can be found at http://www.habitability.net/.

When I was in one of the gripes was about habitability and where did they come up with the amount of space a sailor should get. The manual would have been another thing to gripe about. One of the sayings when I was in is that a bi..., ahh, griping sailor was a happy sailor.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

My take from the above is that the Ship's Locker can be located anywhere the designer wants to put one in my choice is usually adjacent to an airlock since vacc suits are typically stored in them. Many Traveller deck plans appear to locate an airlock near the bridge.specially if the item would have helped get the party out of a sticky situation.

You are right that it can be anywhere, but that doesn't make it separate from the bridge tonnage. That was my point. (And, it might be simply a consensus position on here that the tonnage comes from the Bridge numbers, rather than canon.)

I put portions of it throughout the ship - suits in an airlock (of which I count one as part of the bridge tonnage), weapons on the bridge or in the Captain's stateroom, a damage control kit somewhere in the living space.