Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
You might want to think of two damage control kits, one in the living space and another in the engineering spaces. Your ship engineers are apt to double as your damage control people.
A Modern Frigate Size Vessel for Comparison
- Thread starter PFVA63
- Start date
You might want to think of two damage control kits, one in the living space and another in the engineering spaces. Your ship engineers are apt to double as your damage control people.
Hi,
Looking at the info in the publication that Sndrg and Vargas have references provides the following info:
Unobstructed deck space per Officer Berth (on ships Frigate size and above)
C. O. - Single Stateroom 1.1 to 1.8 dtons/person
X. O. - Single Stateroom 0.8 to 1.4 dtons/person
Dept. Head - Single Stateroom 0.6 to 1.2 dtons/person
Officers Single Stateroom - 0.7 to 1.0 dtons/person
Double Stateroom - 0.44 to 0.7 dtons total
Officers Bunkroom - 0.40 dtons/person
The reference document indicates that the "Unobstructed walking and working areas in officer berthing spaces will conform, as a minimum' to this table. As such, its not clear that this includes sanitary spaces (or actually the space occupied by the berth/bunk, and/or stowage lockers etc).
The document suggests a desired space for a shower stall as 30" x 30" and for a water closet a similar 30" x 30" space. Together this would amount to a minimum of another 1/2 deck square or so (~0.25 dtons + any additional space in between the shower and water closet). Additionally, a standard mattress is listed as 72.5" though some installations may require 76 or 80" mattresses. A 72.5x 30" mattress would take up another ~ 0.3 deck squares (0.15 dtons/mattress stack).
From this, it would seem that maybe an officers double stateroom may be on the order of maybe a minimum of ~1.24 dtons (0.44+0.3+0.25+~0.25 for the space in the sanitary space between the w/c & shower and/or other such stuff) to ~1.5 dtons (0.7+0.3+0.25+~0.25).
A single officers cabin may thus be on the order of ~1.5 dtons (0.7+0.3+0.25+~0.25) to ~1.8 dtons (1.0+0.3+0.25+~0.25). Dept Heads could be housed in staterooms up to about ~2.0 dtons (1.2+0.3+0.25+~0.25). XO's could be housed in staterooms up to ~2.2 dtons (1.4+0.3+0.25+~0.25) and CO's in staterooms up to ~2.60 dtons (1.8+0.3+0.25+~0.25).
Looking at this then, I think that I'm kind of OK with assuming a 2dton stateroom (with an additional 2dtons for other stuff including common spaces and accommodations for a Traveller ship).
Looking at the info in the publication that Sndrg and Vargas have references provides the following info:
Unobstructed deck space per Officer Berth (on ships Frigate size and above)
C. O. - Single Stateroom 1.1 to 1.8 dtons/person
X. O. - Single Stateroom 0.8 to 1.4 dtons/person
Dept. Head - Single Stateroom 0.6 to 1.2 dtons/person
Officers Single Stateroom - 0.7 to 1.0 dtons/person
Double Stateroom - 0.44 to 0.7 dtons total
Officers Bunkroom - 0.40 dtons/person
The reference document indicates that the "Unobstructed walking and working areas in officer berthing spaces will conform, as a minimum' to this table. As such, its not clear that this includes sanitary spaces (or actually the space occupied by the berth/bunk, and/or stowage lockers etc).
The document suggests a desired space for a shower stall as 30" x 30" and for a water closet a similar 30" x 30" space. Together this would amount to a minimum of another 1/2 deck square or so (~0.25 dtons + any additional space in between the shower and water closet). Additionally, a standard mattress is listed as 72.5" though some installations may require 76 or 80" mattresses. A 72.5x 30" mattress would take up another ~ 0.3 deck squares (0.15 dtons/mattress stack).
From this, it would seem that maybe an officers double stateroom may be on the order of maybe a minimum of ~1.24 dtons (0.44+0.3+0.25+~0.25 for the space in the sanitary space between the w/c & shower and/or other such stuff) to ~1.5 dtons (0.7+0.3+0.25+~0.25).
A single officers cabin may thus be on the order of ~1.5 dtons (0.7+0.3+0.25+~0.25) to ~1.8 dtons (1.0+0.3+0.25+~0.25). Dept Heads could be housed in staterooms up to about ~2.0 dtons (1.2+0.3+0.25+~0.25). XO's could be housed in staterooms up to ~2.2 dtons (1.4+0.3+0.25+~0.25) and CO's in staterooms up to ~2.60 dtons (1.8+0.3+0.25+~0.25).
Looking at this then, I think that I'm kind of OK with assuming a 2dton stateroom (with an additional 2dtons for other stuff including common spaces and accommodations for a Traveller ship).
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
I have at least two, but the one in Engineering is counted in the Engineering tonnage. You could conceivably count the one in the living space as part of the Stateroom tonnage, instead.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
On the Coast Guard buoy tender that I was looking at buying, a lot of the firefighting and basic damage control equipment was stored in lockers that doubled as benches in the galley area. Depending on how you figure your galley area you could include one kit in the Stateroom tonnage.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Hello Fritz_Brown,
You're right where the ship's locker is located or tonnage comes from doesn't matter since the numbers have to work within the hulls tonnage plus or minus the slop factor.
My designs that have multiple airlocks has vacc suit storage located adjacent to the inner hatch.
You're right where the ship's locker is located or tonnage comes from doesn't matter since the numbers have to work within the hulls tonnage plus or minus the slop factor.
My designs that have multiple airlocks has vacc suit storage located adjacent to the inner hatch.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Evening PFVA63,
Most of the enlisted space requirements are in the verbiage before Table 2, which is kind of hard to follow.
My memory is a bit hazy on the set-up for the officer quarters on submarines. What I recall is that the CO and XO shared a head that had a toilet, sink, and shower. The rest of the officers had a shared head which had, I think, 2 of everything. The staterooms had a fold down sink and three what I call medicine cabinets.
I don't have a clue about the officer or CPO berthing on the USS Simon Lake AS-33 was like. I didn't have to shut and open the plumbing when emptying sanitary tanks inport like I did on submarines.
Table 3 provides the stowage space for personal. On the submarines I was on there was space under the bunk pan to stow my clothing. For the most part the crew finds places to stow personal gear that won't fit in the bunk pan.
On the submarines I was on the toilet had the thickness of the shower stall wall. The wall was a heavy gage stainless steel IIRC. On the USS Simon Lake the head was set-up with the shower stalls on one bulkhead, about four feet of space to the sinks on an interior wall. On the other side where urinals, which recently announced going to be gone, and another about 3 or 4 feet to the toilet stalls.
Good stuff PFVA63, I'm glad you shared your work.
Most of the enlisted space requirements are in the verbiage before Table 2, which is kind of hard to follow.
My memory is a bit hazy on the set-up for the officer quarters on submarines. What I recall is that the CO and XO shared a head that had a toilet, sink, and shower. The rest of the officers had a shared head which had, I think, 2 of everything. The staterooms had a fold down sink and three what I call medicine cabinets.
I don't have a clue about the officer or CPO berthing on the USS Simon Lake AS-33 was like. I didn't have to shut and open the plumbing when emptying sanitary tanks inport like I did on submarines.
Table 3 provides the stowage space for personal. On the submarines I was on there was space under the bunk pan to stow my clothing. For the most part the crew finds places to stow personal gear that won't fit in the bunk pan.
On the submarines I was on the toilet had the thickness of the shower stall wall. The wall was a heavy gage stainless steel IIRC. On the USS Simon Lake the head was set-up with the shower stalls on one bulkhead, about four feet of space to the sinks on an interior wall. On the other side where urinals, which recently announced going to be gone, and another about 3 or 4 feet to the toilet stalls.
Good stuff PFVA63, I'm glad you shared your work.
Hi,
Thanks. I keep forgetting about enlisted personnel, and how they might be housed. As I recall GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars had rules for Bunk Rooms, but to me they seemed to be a bit odd sized. In those rules a standard bunkroom consists of two deck squares (5' x 10' total space) and is said to be able to accommodate 10 berths. No matter how I try and draw it, I have trouble trying to figure out how to fit 10 berths into such a space.
I could see maybe putting two stacks of berths (each about 72 to 75" long and 30' wide) side by side (with a partition between them) and some lockers at the end, but you would have to add passageways outboard each stack to access these berths, and with a stack 5 berths high in a 10ft tall room, even assuming that there is no stuff in the overhead decreasing the free height in the space (like I think is assumed in other versions of Traveller) then you would only have nominally 24" per berth.
Looking at the USN Habitability manual that you suggested notes that for enlisted people you should probably provide a vertical clearance above the mattress of at least 20" and a minimum of 18" down the side of the berths (for a submarine) or 27" (for normal ships) plus 18' (for submarines) at the end of a stack or 30" at the end for a surface ship.
As such to me the GURPS Traveller stuff seems a bit too small to me, especially since it doesn't seem to address any other common spaces and such.
Thanks. I keep forgetting about enlisted personnel, and how they might be housed. As I recall GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars had rules for Bunk Rooms, but to me they seemed to be a bit odd sized. In those rules a standard bunkroom consists of two deck squares (5' x 10' total space) and is said to be able to accommodate 10 berths. No matter how I try and draw it, I have trouble trying to figure out how to fit 10 berths into such a space.
I could see maybe putting two stacks of berths (each about 72 to 75" long and 30' wide) side by side (with a partition between them) and some lockers at the end, but you would have to add passageways outboard each stack to access these berths, and with a stack 5 berths high in a 10ft tall room, even assuming that there is no stuff in the overhead decreasing the free height in the space (like I think is assumed in other versions of Traveller) then you would only have nominally 24" per berth.
Looking at the USN Habitability manual that you suggested notes that for enlisted people you should probably provide a vertical clearance above the mattress of at least 20" and a minimum of 18" down the side of the berths (for a submarine) or 27" (for normal ships) plus 18' (for submarines) at the end of a stack or 30" at the end for a surface ship.
As such to me the GURPS Traveller stuff seems a bit too small to me, especially since it doesn't seem to address any other common spaces and such.
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Evening PFVA63,
We enlisted are easy to forget until something goes wrong, then the fun begins.
On the three boomers, SSBN, I was on the racks where stacked two and three high fitting around equipment access and storage spaces. Most of the crews berthing was in lower level operations. Some racks occupied the middle level of the missile compartment. When there where more bodies than places for them to sleep special bunks where sometimes attached to brackets in the torpedo room and some between the missile tubes.
On the fast attack, SSN, most of the crew berthing was in lower level operations. However, the torpedo room had what was called the hanging garden. This space was accessed by a ladder from the deck to a small compartment that had some racks. My rack had some of the space above the mattress taken up by the forward capstan motor housing.
The Simon Lake had berthing compartments that held a varying number of racks, a head, and a common area. The racks where stacked pretty much as described in the habitability manual.
We enlisted are easy to forget until something goes wrong, then the fun begins.
On the three boomers, SSBN, I was on the racks where stacked two and three high fitting around equipment access and storage spaces. Most of the crews berthing was in lower level operations. Some racks occupied the middle level of the missile compartment. When there where more bodies than places for them to sleep special bunks where sometimes attached to brackets in the torpedo room and some between the missile tubes.
On the fast attack, SSN, most of the crew berthing was in lower level operations. However, the torpedo room had what was called the hanging garden. This space was accessed by a ladder from the deck to a small compartment that had some racks. My rack had some of the space above the mattress taken up by the forward capstan motor housing.
The Simon Lake had berthing compartments that held a varying number of racks, a head, and a common area. The racks where stacked pretty much as described in the habitability manual.
That sounds like 2 stacks of 5 pan racks, with one right on the deck. On surface ships, we get 6'X2'X2' racks, including the coffin locker, 3-high. Two feet cross the aisle is another set. So 6 bunks in a 6X6X6 space. Marines get pan racks 9no coffin locker), usually 4-high. So a 5X10 space just means a 1-foot wide aisle, but 4 extra feet for stand-up lockers at the foot of the racks.
PinkSplice
SOC-12
Nice research.
The whole point is to have a space that can sustain for more than 24 hrs, and keep the crew from killing each other. Since Traveller is a game, I have no problems faking it with nooks and crannies, well within the 20% margin.
Small craft couches are workable for orbital ops, and less than a day, but the small craft stateroom will be required if the boat goes anywhere outsystem.
From personal experience, 24 hours in a cockpit with two piddle packs is enough incentive for those small craft berths. The whole point of Traveller craft is food, air conditioning and indoor plumbing...
Additional- 2 man crews for longer than 24 hours, each with thier own berth. NO hot-bunking.
The whole point is to have a space that can sustain for more than 24 hrs, and keep the crew from killing each other. Since Traveller is a game, I have no problems faking it with nooks and crannies, well within the 20% margin.
Small craft couches are workable for orbital ops, and less than a day, but the small craft stateroom will be required if the boat goes anywhere outsystem.
From personal experience, 24 hours in a cockpit with two piddle packs is enough incentive for those small craft berths. The whole point of Traveller craft is food, air conditioning and indoor plumbing...
Additional- 2 man crews for longer than 24 hours, each with thier own berth. NO hot-bunking.
Let's see... 5' x 10'? 10 bunks? off to sketchup...
Using the standard coffin racks... 6' x 2' x 2', switch to an end entry. 5 racks tall, 2 abreast, with a 4' x 5' entry foyer. LS gear in the space between, and a narrow (11") pull out commode; over the commode is a pull out sink. Above that, some dress uniform shirt and tunic hang, on a pull out rack system, 3 deep, 2 tall, with rails in the ceiling. Each man as about 5" of hang space, plus there are two overflow positions (probably the lower front) for shared duty shirt hang.
Using the standard coffin racks... 6' x 2' x 2', switch to an end entry. 5 racks tall, 2 abreast, with a 4' x 5' entry foyer. LS gear in the space between, and a narrow (11") pull out commode; over the commode is a pull out sink. Above that, some dress uniform shirt and tunic hang, on a pull out rack system, 3 deep, 2 tall, with rails in the ceiling. Each man as about 5" of hang space, plus there are two overflow positions (probably the lower front) for shared duty shirt hang.
Attachments
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Sounds overwhelmingly comfortable. I'd love to see those in use, particularly getting in and out of the top tier "coffins".
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
... or all the men can climb into sleeping bags, pop a sedative, switch off the grav plate, velcro the bags together and wait for the drugs to kick in ... then you can stack crewmen like cords of firewood.
Shhhhhh Don't give the bean counters at the Bureau of Ships any ideas!
Actually, a positive contribution that I can make to the discussion is to point you to the Rotating shelving carousels as an automated version of your coffin racks (to make it easier to climb in and out).
I would still (personally) just climb into an escape pod and take my chances in space rather than live in a 2x2x6 foot coffin!
[I remember saying, after my first MRI, that my second MRI would be a lot easier ... since I would be in a coma before you stuffed me into one of those tubes again!]
I mean DANG, what do you have against these poor guys.
I would still (personally) just climb into an escape pod and take my chances in space rather than live in a 2x2x6 foot coffin!
[I remember saying, after my first MRI, that my second MRI would be a lot easier ... since I would be in a coma before you stuffed me into one of those tubes again!]
I mean DANG, what do you have against these poor guys.
SpaceBadger
SOC-14 1K
I said the same thing to my neurologist recently (actually told her I would rather endure a full hour of the pain I get without meds, rather than an hour in the MRI tube). She prescribed a Valium to be taken 30 min before the MRI. That helped a LOT!
I wouldn't fit in a standard rack in the navy anyway. be hitting both ends and my shoulder out the side. If maintained in zero-G, however, that would be solved by sleeping in the diagonal...
I did make it fit 10 standard naval racks into a 5x10x10' space, tho...
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
That you did. I never considered the Zero G aspect. Since it works long term for the International Space Station, why not?
http://https://www.google.com/search?q=space+station+sleeping&client=firefox-a&hs=T5N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
fficial&channel=np&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=pC6yUYSVKsex0QGbwoH4CA&ved=0CD8QsAQ&biw=1198&bih=578#facrc=_&imgrc=4hlK3EKgFhH9dM%3A%3BwHo0SXpsk7oc5M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.asc-csa.gc.ca%252Fimages%252Fliving_in_space_sleep1_lo-res.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.asc-csa.gc.ca%252Feng%252Fastronauts%252Fliving_sleeping.asp%3B300%3B453Still... Long way from a nice "crowded" 2dt smallcraft cabin (Which I advocate for in CT/HG as allowable).
That you did. I never considered the Zero G aspect. Since it works long term for the International Space Station, why not?
http://https://www.google.com/search?q=space+station+sleeping&client=firefox-a&hs=T5N&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=np&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=pC6yUYSVKsex0QGbwoH4CA&ved=0CD8QsAQ&biw=1198&bih=578#facrc=_&imgrc=4hlK3EKgFhH9dM%3A%3BwHo0SXpsk7oc5M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.asc-csa.gc.ca%252Fimages%252Fliving_in_space_sleep1_lo-res.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.asc-csa.gc.ca%252Feng%252Fastronauts%252Fliving_sleeping.asp%3B300%3B453
Still... Long way from a nice "crowded" 2dt smallcraft cabin (Which I advocate for in CT/HG as allowable).
It is interesting to see the position the arms rest in Zero-G.
Garyius2003
SOC-13
I rode the old New Orleans--the LPH--in troop berthing like that, only with the frame and canvas/rope bunks and a very slim mattress pad. We also had the rifle locks on the frame inbetween the racks. It really sucked bad. To the point I was flown over to a Charleston class AKA which had been refitted prior to basing in Japan, and thought it was a hotel with a real mattress, an underbed locker, and enough space to mostly sit up in the bunk.
That design will not make the troops happy or ready to jump into action after two weeks or two months of living that way.
ETA: I mean like the example in rack packing/height. The racks had a space isle of about three feet.
We hit a storm big enough to rock an LPH. I was very glad I was on the third rack. I do not get sea sick, but I nearly hurled several times when the vomit started.
That design will not make the troops happy or ready to jump into action after two weeks or two months of living that way.
ETA: I mean like the example in rack packing/height. The racks had a space isle of about three feet.
We hit a storm big enough to rock an LPH. I was very glad I was on the third rack. I do not get sea sick, but I nearly hurled several times when the vomit started.
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Hi,
I guess it fits into a 10ft3m high space, but if you assume the an allowance for structure and stuff (like in some Traveller stuff) it looks like you might run into trouble
