A second DAY OF INFAMY
- Thread starter Sven
- Start date
Shadow Bear
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:
Okay I can well understand how in light of the thousands of dead, people will be angry and want to see blood. But please just stop and think.
Subjecting thousands of innocent civilians to nuclear anhilation will not bring a single one of the dead back. It will not achieve anything that can not be achieved through other far less dramatic and destructive means. It is guaranteed to create thousands of new suicide bombers. And above all it will reduce us to the same level as those who committed this act in the first place.
As to Israel, this is not the place to discuss that topic, but for the past 53 years Israel has responded to terrorism by ever increasing levels of force and violence, and still its citizens live in fear of the terrorist's bomb. Force alone will never solve this problem.
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Japan's fanatic suicide pilots were only stopped by a nuclear strike. We have not had a problem with them since.
Okay I can well understand how in light of the thousands of dead, people will be angry and want to see blood. But please just stop and think.
Subjecting thousands of innocent civilians to nuclear anhilation will not bring a single one of the dead back. It will not achieve anything that can not be achieved through other far less dramatic and destructive means. It is guaranteed to create thousands of new suicide bombers. And above all it will reduce us to the same level as those who committed this act in the first place.
As to Israel, this is not the place to discuss that topic, but for the past 53 years Israel has responded to terrorism by ever increasing levels of force and violence, and still its citizens live in fear of the terrorist's bomb. Force alone will never solve this problem.
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Japan's fanatic suicide pilots were only stopped by a nuclear strike. We have not had a problem with them since.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:
You people are starting to scare me. How does raining nuclear death on countless innocent civilians for the actions of their government (which btw is not chosen by said civilians) make us any better than the terrorist? .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As opposed to say, Germany in 1933-1945?
Admittedly they were elected, at some point but many supported the Taleban because they promised an end to the endemic corruption
You people are starting to scare me. How does raining nuclear death on countless innocent civilians for the actions of their government (which btw is not chosen by said civilians) make us any better than the terrorist? .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As opposed to say, Germany in 1933-1945?
Admittedly they were elected, at some point but many supported the Taleban because they promised an end to the endemic corruption
DaveShayne
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MT++:
oderint dum metuant - Let them hate, so long as they fear.
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Didn't work for the Romans. No reason to expect it to work for us.
David Shayne
oderint dum metuant - Let them hate, so long as they fear.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Didn't work for the Romans. No reason to expect it to work for us.
David Shayne
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveShayne:
Didn't work for the Romans. No reason to expect it to work for us.
David Shayne
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
NO, it DID work.
It worked for many HUNDREDS of YEARS. A timespan which you personally are apparently unable to comprehend.
All empires eventually fall. Particularly if your citizens stop giving a damn about society.
[This message has been edited by Blue Ghost (edited 04 October 2001).]
Didn't work for the Romans. No reason to expect it to work for us.
David Shayne
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
NO, it DID work.
It worked for many HUNDREDS of YEARS. A timespan which you personally are apparently unable to comprehend.
All empires eventually fall. Particularly if your citizens stop giving a damn about society.
[This message has been edited by Blue Ghost (edited 04 October 2001).]
DaveShayne
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
NO, it DID work.
It worked for many HUNDREDS of YEARS. A timespan which you personally are apparently unable to comprehend.
All empires eventually fall. Particularly if your citizens stop giving a damn about society.
[This message has been edited by Blue Ghost (edited 04 October 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That Rome lasted as long as it did is a testament to the fact that they were - after defeating Carthage (which took three rather bloody wars) the only power on the mediteranean basin. (Due in large part to the infighting amongst the heirs of Alexander.)
Whenever they fought a people who *hated* them they wound up fighting long and bloody wars. Wars that definitely hastened the decline of the power of the city of Rome and it's empire. See Rome's campaigns in Spain, and to a lesser extent Judea for proof that hatred trumps fear.
Historical ignorance is an ugly ailment. I sugest you get your case treated.
David Shayne
NO, it DID work.
It worked for many HUNDREDS of YEARS. A timespan which you personally are apparently unable to comprehend.
All empires eventually fall. Particularly if your citizens stop giving a damn about society.
[This message has been edited by Blue Ghost (edited 04 October 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That Rome lasted as long as it did is a testament to the fact that they were - after defeating Carthage (which took three rather bloody wars) the only power on the mediteranean basin. (Due in large part to the infighting amongst the heirs of Alexander.)
Whenever they fought a people who *hated* them they wound up fighting long and bloody wars. Wars that definitely hastened the decline of the power of the city of Rome and it's empire. See Rome's campaigns in Spain, and to a lesser extent Judea for proof that hatred trumps fear.
Historical ignorance is an ugly ailment. I sugest you get your case treated.
David Shayne
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveShayne:
That Rome lasted as long as it did is a testament to the fact that they were - after defeating Carthage (which took three rather bloody wars) the only power on the mediteranean basin. (Due in large part to the infighting amongst the heirs of Alexander.)
Whenever they fought a people who *hated* them they wound up fighting long and bloody wars. Wars that definitely hastened the decline of the power of the city of Rome and it's empire. See Rome's campaigns in Spain, and to a lesser extent Judea for proof that hatred trumps fear.
Historical ignorance is an ugly ailment. I sugest you get your case treated.
David Shayne<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whatever pal. It may have been over a decade since I took my courses in ancient western civ, but the reasons you're citing are inaccurate at best.
It was the lack of the support for the both the ethic and political state in general. Said mindset thinned the ranks, which allowed the Germanic tribes to eventually overcome the Roman lines.
BUT even then the Empire did not fall.
I don't know what version of history you've been reading, but I would suggest that you quit projecting your own ignorance onto myself, and instead go do a bit of reading yourself.
That Rome lasted as long as it did is a testament to the fact that they were - after defeating Carthage (which took three rather bloody wars) the only power on the mediteranean basin. (Due in large part to the infighting amongst the heirs of Alexander.)
Whenever they fought a people who *hated* them they wound up fighting long and bloody wars. Wars that definitely hastened the decline of the power of the city of Rome and it's empire. See Rome's campaigns in Spain, and to a lesser extent Judea for proof that hatred trumps fear.
Historical ignorance is an ugly ailment. I sugest you get your case treated.
David Shayne<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whatever pal. It may have been over a decade since I took my courses in ancient western civ, but the reasons you're citing are inaccurate at best.
It was the lack of the support for the both the ethic and political state in general. Said mindset thinned the ranks, which allowed the Germanic tribes to eventually overcome the Roman lines.
BUT even then the Empire did not fall.
I don't know what version of history you've been reading, but I would suggest that you quit projecting your own ignorance onto myself, and instead go do a bit of reading yourself.
Sep 11th was awful! No arguements on that score from anyone over this side of the pond.
But, having served in the British army for 16 years, with service in Northern Ireland, the Gulf War and various parts of the former Yugoslavia not to mention a few other places around the world, I have some experience in this game and in my experience extremism breeds extremism! You only have to look at the highly extreme reaction from some contributors to this site to see that.
What I have been reading here makes me almost as sick to my stomach as the events of 11th Sep. As someone who may still have to go do his bit to support your right to able to spout this sort of rubbish, I for one would appreciate it if either you moved to some other forum to sound off, or alternatively moved the arguement onto a more rational level.
On this site we discuss Traveller and I for one would like to keep it that way.
My thoughts and prayers go to all those who have lost friends and family, particularly those of the emergency services who have my undying admiration. Their sacrifice makes my limited service look like a walk in the park.
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JB
Variety is the Spice of Life
But, having served in the British army for 16 years, with service in Northern Ireland, the Gulf War and various parts of the former Yugoslavia not to mention a few other places around the world, I have some experience in this game and in my experience extremism breeds extremism! You only have to look at the highly extreme reaction from some contributors to this site to see that.
What I have been reading here makes me almost as sick to my stomach as the events of 11th Sep. As someone who may still have to go do his bit to support your right to able to spout this sort of rubbish, I for one would appreciate it if either you moved to some other forum to sound off, or alternatively moved the arguement onto a more rational level.
On this site we discuss Traveller and I for one would like to keep it that way.
My thoughts and prayers go to all those who have lost friends and family, particularly those of the emergency services who have my undying admiration. Their sacrifice makes my limited service look like a walk in the park.
------------------
JB
Variety is the Spice of Life
DaveShayne
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
Whatever pal. It may have been over a decade since I took my courses in ancient western civ, but the reasons you're citing are inaccurate at best.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did those courses even mention Rome's 100 year attempt to pacify the Spanish coastland? I suggest you read a little further than your civ101 sylabus to get an idea of just how ineffective fear was as a tool in Rome's wars of pacification.
Rome had a lot of other things going for it and a lot of other reasons for it's success. To sugest that a demonstrably inefective tactic was the sole basis of that success is evidence of a lack of understanding of history.
I do apologize for the lack of civility of my last post and any lack of civility that has crept into this one. This will be my last statement on the subject and I wish you well in your studies.
David Shayne
Whatever pal. It may have been over a decade since I took my courses in ancient western civ, but the reasons you're citing are inaccurate at best.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did those courses even mention Rome's 100 year attempt to pacify the Spanish coastland? I suggest you read a little further than your civ101 sylabus to get an idea of just how ineffective fear was as a tool in Rome's wars of pacification.
Rome had a lot of other things going for it and a lot of other reasons for it's success. To sugest that a demonstrably inefective tactic was the sole basis of that success is evidence of a lack of understanding of history.
I do apologize for the lack of civility of my last post and any lack of civility that has crept into this one. This will be my last statement on the subject and I wish you well in your studies.
David Shayne
DaveShayne
SOC-12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
Lets keep it civil folks.
Hunter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My appologies for failing to maintain the proper level of decorum.
David Shayne
Lets keep it civil folks.
Hunter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My appologies for failing to maintain the proper level of decorum.
David Shayne
