A different paradigm for naval warfare (and maybe even piracy?)

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As stated in previous posts, the pirate lifestyle is a nomadic one.

one can't simply slap the word "nomadic" onto a group and say "thus". real nomads are independent. they live off the land, breed their own transportation and food, go where they will because they support themselves no matter where they are. no-one with a starship can do this. they need lifesupport, nuts and bolts, packaged food, rebreathers, gaskets, grease, light bulbs, switches, and on and on, none of which they can produce themselves. they might be as smart as can be, but when the new guys show up and stuff starts disappearing left and right the dumb traders are going to notice.

no matter how "nomadic" they were they could never wander far from the technical and social infrastructure they'd need to survive, much less escape it. and being dependent on the people one steals from makes one highly vulnerable to their defensive actions. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually most nomads aren't that independent either. As soon as mankind stepped beyond a picked up stick there where interactions between nomads and settled folks for all those tools that could not be made while travelling. Hard to mine/smelt ores if you are moving once per week or even month.

Even the Huns made use of captured infrastructure, they just did not live in the captured cities.

And what we call "The Mongols" actually was the Mongolian Army commanded from what was one of the largest cities of the time and supported by a rather large, static nation, not a nomad group with families and all.

 

[sgbrown]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
-clip-

Privateers in Traveller make some sense. Based out of an "independen" nation outside the Borders they use politics as a shield. -clip- [/QB]

Let's not forget about rival megacorps, rival worlds, and rival nobles within the 3I.

As long as plausible deny-ability is maintained and the damage is limited to the assets of the rival fractions, this sort of "low level" conflict might not gain the full attention of the Navy. It'd be illegal and dealt with when ever it became too obvious - but ....

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by flykiller:
one can't simply slap the word "nomadic" onto a group and say "thus". real nomads are independent. they live off the land, breed their own transportation and food, go where they will because they support themselves no matter where they are.

Sounds like pretty good description of the term, "pirate".

Originally posted by flykiller:
no-one with a starship can do this. they need lifesupport, nuts and bolts, packaged food, rebreathers, gaskets, grease, light bulbs, switches, and on and on, none of which they can produce themselves. they might be as smart as can be, but when the new guys show up and stuff starts disappearing left and right the dumb traders are going to notice.

This is a blantant oversimplification, and as such I must respectfully disagree with the opinion as presented. While shipboard life certainly requires these material things, they are (often quite easily) procured through, well, piracy; also, they may be obtained through trade with communities (and even governments, sometimes) which are sympathetic to (or at least fearful of) pirates.

I have the highest regard for those engaged in the mercantile trade, indeed they are some of the smartest individuals I have ever known, and there will always be a special place in my heart for the struggling free trader and subsector-wide lines. Unfortunately, some of those very free traders may find themselves forced to choose at times between the 'gray trade' (as Liam Devlin put it), outright piracy or bankruptcy. It is not pretty to see a merchant captain who has 35 years of payments made on his ship face the reality of being made a pauper. Most will adopt very desperate measures before allowing this situation to come to pass.

Originally posted by flykiller:
no matter how "nomadic" they were they could never wander far from the technical and social infrastructure they'd need to survive, much less escape it. and being dependent on the people one steals from makes one highly vulnerable to their defensive actions.

Escape it? They would hardly want to! I suspect most pirate crews view themselves as escaping (or at least avoiding) economic and social oppression. The fact that they do so by preying upon 'legitimate' trade is irrelevent to them, as their underlying premise is to question that very legitimacy. And let's face it; unless a local community has an Imperial Marine garrison billeted nearby, or has hired a competent mercenary force to deal with security for them, the usual civilian defense is generally to run and hide.

As for social infrastructure, I would argue that corsair crews maintain their own, separate and distinct from that of 'law-abiding' citizens of the Imperium; and certainly would view the Imperium's social structure as weak, outdated, top-heavy and highly vulnerable to exploitation: something they can routinely turn to their own advantage. Many authorities on the subject consider piracy to be the beginning of true democracy (not merely republicanism, which predated it by millenia); pirate crewmembers generally have a direct stake and a direct say in the operation of their own vessels. Quite opposite from the rigid social stratification (and inherent marginalization of the masses) by the Imperial Nobility, the Navy and Marines, and to a lesser extent, the Merchants' corporate (and Megacorp) hierarchies.

 

[flykiller]

I see you interpret literally, flykiller the term "nomadic".

I do think words should be descriptive and not just expressions of fiat, yes.

Much like the life of the Free Trader, and the Grey Trader folk they sometimes prey/ rely upon.

hardly. free and "gray" traders are part of the system. pirates prey on the system. there's a difference between trade (however "gray") and piracy. and that pirates rely upon those they loot is exactly my point - if the traders resist then the pirates are in trouble.

The Diasporan Starfarer's Mercantile Guild ... Likewise the RCES 'Star Vikings' ....

privateering and other looting by official government policy is war. to call it piracy misses the point.

The MT-Rebellion "Hard Times" era

yes, the "looters taking advantage of a disaster" model does work, if the infrastructure necessary to support starships and trade and cargo redirection still exists - but if it does then the means to resist also exists. functional pirates alongside defenseless traders and governments sounds like another fiat setting.

... thralls socked away at a base who do the heavy work is another.

any free-standing base large enough to support a pirate starship will be at least a city big enough to have better things to do than service a pirate. which is my point. piracy with starships will involve too much infrastructure to hide.

... small pocket "empires" whose raiding vessels and states lie beyond the reach of the 4th Imperium, the Freedom League Worlds, the NZS, and the Terran Common wealth.

if raiders from small pocket empires can cross a certain distance, then so can warships from larger polities. "beyond the reach of" sounds like another fiat setting.

Places like "Reaver's Deep" ring a bell?

any place with the resources to support space-going piracy will have many times more the resources available to suppress it. in any realistic setting, it will be.

 

[atpollard]

Since this discussion has migrated from [Horatio Hornblower] in space to the logistics of maintaining [Atilla the Hun and his crew of neo-skinheads] in space, I assume that the paradigm for a Gentleman's War and a Kinder and Gentler Imperium is fairly well dead at this point.

Is there any OTU evidence of a weak Imperium that would magnify the power of local nobility and allow for a modern EU or Holy Roman Empire political situation? Privateers could then be the Naval equivalent of the Broadsword type independant mercenary unit.

Kiling all prisoners would embarass the Nobleman who at least looks the other way (for 10 percent of your booty) and could force higher nobles to take action (or a Merchant line to hire characters for a high tech bounty hunter mission).

 

[flykiller]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />they need lifesupport, nuts and bolts, packaged food, rebreathers, gaskets, grease, light bulbs, switches, and on and on, none of which they can produce themselves.

This is a blantant oversimplification, and as such I must respectfully disagree with the opinion as presented. While shipboard life certainly requires these material things, they are (often quite easily) procured through, well, piracy ....</font>[/QUOTE]as a navy electrician who spent many hours with hammer and chisle and file trying to make parts from one system function in another, I can assure you that trying to maintain a ship with captured parts would be an unending nightmare.

 

[flykiller]

Since this discussion has migrated from [Horatio Hornblower] in space to the logistics of maintaining [Atilla the Hun and his crew of neo-skinheads] in space, ....

(laugh) sorry, I'll shut up now.

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
As an adjective, not a noun, the life of a Pirate is nomadic, till they retire, or are "retired"

Much like the life of the Free Trader, and the Grey Trader folk they sometimes prey/ rely upon.

Grey Trader folk: Those who are engaged in the "Grey trade" (see also: Smugglers, tariff dodgers, gunrunners and so forth ) of cargoes (living and inorganic) between the stars. Usually one or more of these acts as a fence for the cunning long-career tendency pirate.

Free Trader folk: Our typical Player's ship, trying to make ends meet-- to those who call no planet home but their hull and the borders end at the airlock.

TU time, region of space and era also dictate the conditions by which, and where "piracy" flourishes...

Well written, Liam. Your point about the free trader's world ending at the external airlock hatch is a very good one; one which applies equally well to corsairs, scouts, naval vessels, to the majority of starships, in fact. I was unaware of many of the specific examples you listed, so the information presented has helped enhance my knowledge of the subject as well as furthering this discussion.

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by atpollard:

... I assume that the paradigm for a Gentleman's War and a Kinder and Gentler Imperium is fairly well dead at this point.

Is there any OTU evidence of a weak Imperium that would magnify the power of local nobility and allow for a modern EU or Holy Roman Empire political situation? Privateers could then be the Naval equivalent of the Broadsword type independant mercenary unit.

The "gentlemen's war", as you call it (and if such a thing is not a true oxymoron), has come into and gone out of vogue in different regions, and at different stages both during the Third Imperium and prior to its formation. The attention focused by the Imperial Family and Noble Houses has also waxed and waned, due in large part to the contemporary zeitgeist. I think I could cite the situation in the Spinward Marches during and after the Fifth Frontier War, and especially in the region around Aramis, as one OTU canonical example for the case of a weakened Imperium, for which socio-economic conditions are ripe for both privateering and piracy.

Originally posted by atpollard:

Killing all prisoners would embarrass the Nobleman who at least looks the other way (for 10 percent of your booty) and could force higher nobles to take action (or a Merchant line to hire characters for a high tech bounty hunter mission).

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I think one would be hard pressed to find any member of the Nobility who would sanction piracy. Privateering, while often compared to it, is an entirely different matter: it is a military tactic employed to disrupt and degrade enemy logistics; as such, is not only sanctioned, but often is mandated by the Sector Duke. Lives lost due to piracy is an abomination; lives lost due to privateering is an inevitable, if tragic, consequence of war.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Arthur hault-Denger:

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I think one would be hard pressed to find any member of the Nobility who would sanction piracy. Privateering, while often compared to it, is an entirely different matter: it is a military tactic employed to disrupt and degrade enemy logistics; as such, is not only sanctioned, but often is mandated by the Sector Duke. Lives lost due to piracy is an abomination; lives lost due to privateering is an inevitable, if tragic, consequence of war.

The difference between a pirate and a privateer is the same as the diffence between a battle and a massacre. Your side employs Privateers to fight battles. The enemy uses Pirates to massacre civilians.

I have a friend who works for "Book of Hope" and provides Bibles to children in Africa. One of the difficulties of doing business in Africa is the level of local corruption in all levels of society and government. My friend once made the commet "is it really so immoral for some of the poorest people on the face of the Earth to exort a $50 bribe from some of the wealthiest people on the face of the Earth if that is what it takes to feed their family?"

I pose the same question for a TL 8 world along a major trade route. Is it so immoral for the planetary governor to look the other way while a few local "merchants" stop an occasional wealthy liner to steal a cutter and shoot a hole in the fuel tanks. [Of course another local is ready to tow the ship to orbit for a small fee, where another group of locals repair the damage for only a little more than the market rate.] Can a TL 15-16 government with Navy ships protecting fat unarmed multi-kiloton merchants in the core worlds really get that upset at some poor frontier world (that has probably borne the brunt of the last two or three border wars) doing what it takes to survive?

As the Baron, would you let your people starve to protect the Emperor's corporate purse?

Officially, everyone is opposed to piracy and will cooperate fully to end these terrible acts, unofficially ...

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by flykiller:

I do think words should be descriptive and not just expressions of fiat, yes.

Thank you for clearing that much up! "Expressions of Fiat"? An interesting turn of phrase you have there, flykiller.

hardly. free and "gray" traders are part of the system. pirates prey on the system. there's a difference between trade (however "gray") and piracy. and that pirates rely upon those they loot is exactly my point - if the traders resist then the pirates are in trouble.

You missed my point there a bit I think. Allow me to be clearer still: Individual Free traders are not tied to routes per se , as are the larger mercantile shipping companies. They can break off and go elsewhere when the jobs dry up. They are not tied to a route, nor any particular world.

GT's & FT's Part of a system? Yes, part of the system the pirate preys upon, there we may agree.

The Diasporan Starfarer's Mercantile Guild ... Likewise the RCES 'Star Vikings' ....

privateering and other looting by official government policy is war. to call it piracy misses the point.

Hardly, flykiller when the "war" is "not declared", in the literal, and legal sense. State sanctioned or not, the acts theemselves of both of these groups (one of which was not a 'State') itself is piracy. Thus we disagree.

The MT-Rebellion "Hard Times" era

yes, the "looters taking advantage of a disaster" model does work, if the infrastructure necessary to support starships and trade and cargo redirection still exists - but if it does then the means to resist also exists. functional pirates alongside defenseless traders and governments sounds like another fiat setting.

At the risk of being flippant in the face of your statements, I take it you didn't like MT-shattered Imperium/ the Rebellion/ Hard Times very much due to such "fiat settings"?

FWIW, here we may concur--for reasons discussed elsewhere on other boards within CoTI. But briefly to your digression, FACT:
The war was scripted to start with no clear ending, no clear winner was foreseen, or thought out (Numerous former GDW writing/ production personnel have attested to this). No matter how you tried to adhere to what side you thought, the rug was pulled out from under the GM's feet if he/she adhered to OTU wound up being the general feelings, mine included.

But Piracy is the subject here, and so back to it, shall we?


... thralls socked away at a base who do the heavy work is another.

any free-standing base large enough to support a pirate starship will be at least a city big enough to have better things to do than service a pirate. which is my point. piracy with starships will involve too much infrastructure to hide.

I disagree. we have canon examples of how small even a D-class starport (equivalent of H-class spaceport) can be, and how many people to run it.

A C-class starport's major advantage over the D-class is its ability to repair hull damage, and conduct major repairs. Bigger pieces of machinery to move sections of hull are required, agreed, this takes up more space, and requires either automation, or the TL1 Egyptian method of massive amounts of manpower.

... small pocket "empires" whose raiding vessels and states lie beyond the reach of the 4th Imperium, the Freedom League Worlds, the NZS, and the Terran Common wealth.

if raiders from small pocket empires can cross a certain distance, then so can warships from larger polities. "beyond the reach of" sounds like another fiat setting.

LOOK HERE flykiller..
http://www.darkhstarr.com/

It's not a fiat setting written by someone in GDW, QLI, etc. Is it canon? No. Its his campaign website. But I daresay it does explain a whole lot more to me how piracy CAN work in the TU, than your contradictions and head shakings of "No it can't".

Places like "Reaver's Deep" ring a bell?

any place with the resources to support space-going piracy will have many times more the resources available to suppress it. in any realistic setting, it will be.

Frankly flykiller , that's like saying "all stars and the worlds running around them are equal".

They are not. Nor are these regions of space equally equipped, nor anywhere near homogenous in tech levels or anything.

Some will, like those who found themselves long ago under the "Danelaw" in England, will buy them off only to become vassals of those they feared to oppose.

Some will resist, and win.

Some will fail.

Vei Victi either way.What is, or isn't a "realistic setting" to you isn't the same to me, obviously.

Arguing how many lightbulbs, nuts and bolts are needed for widget X on a ship isn't my idea of an RPG game, nor where this discussion of Piracy in the TU should head off.

A level of 'Suspension of disbelief' does not mean I accept all "handwaviums", certes there are grey and blank areas the TU has created in its what, now six incarnations-variations? GM's have had to bridge these gaps the best they can.

As to the level of "realism" and hard science the TU game setting has, it changes each time. It is not appealing to me when I game or when I referee to know the nth sum of the parts I, or the players need.

If it is to you, and your crew--great.

FWIW, I liked that in TNE with FF & S myself, but my players didn't; the setting they liked. But Traveller moved on with GT, and T20. So have I.

Merry Christmas to you, by the way--in case I forgot to remember the Holiday spirit

 

[mbrinkhues]

Actually history shows a few occasions where the government sanctioned privateers without being at war. Elisabethanian England, the Rules of Marokko or the Sultan of Konstantinople all come to mind without a lengthy check. I am sure that looking into the Hanse and Danish/Norse history one can find more.

=================

As for weak vs. strong empire, I find in canon:

+ Renegade Imperial Research Stations (Research Station)

+ A secret Zhodanie Base deep in the Marches (Twilights Peak)

+ Nobles disposing the Emperor (Post SolRim War)

+ The navy's failure in the SolRim war failing to capture most worlds of the Sol. Region despite what should have been an excellent intelligence base

+ A sector duke falsifying an Imperial Warrent, elevating himself to Archduke (Norris in MT)

+ An archduke plotting a sucessful assault on the Emperor, rallying at least his domain behind himself (Dulinor)

+ MegaCorps playing fast and loose with the Imperial Rules of War (Challenge article)

 

[flykiller]

know I said I'd shut up now, but ....

"Expressions of Fiat"? An interesting turn of phrase you have there, flykiller.

yeah, does sound kind of stupid. tried to think of a better way to put it, couldn't. sorry.

At the risk of being flippant in the face of your statements, I take it you didn't like MT-shattered Imperium/ the Rebellion/ Hard Times very much due to such "fiat settings"?

whether I like it or not, if space-going piracy exists, then greater means and motivation to resist it also exist. there's no internally consistent way around it, only fiat, cannonical or not.

(of course, instead of considering it as a setting, one may take the snapshot approach mentioned in another thread and say that because of temporary circumstances good conditions for piracy have arisen, get it while you can.)

merry christmas to you too sir, and to everyone!

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
As for weak vs. strong empire, I find in canon...

Michael,

Great list. There are many more examples in canon but your list presents and example of each example!

+ Nobles disposing the Emperor (Post SolRim War)

That's pre-Rim War, although the Rim War does have something to do with it.

Margaret II, Styryx's mother, had withdrawn the Solomani Autonomous Region's (SAR) charter, accepted petitiions from worlds wishing to be removed from the administration of the SAR, and had begun preparing for a war she knew the Solomani would eventually launch. Margaret dies before the job is complete and Styryx takes up the reins. When he bungles the 3rd Frontier War, the losses in that war become an 'excuse' for his forced abdication. However, you can surmise that the Powers That Be felt Styryx may not have had what it took to lead the Imperium through the looming Rim War hence the need for his removal. Looking at it this way, the 3rd FW was an audition of sorts for Styryx and one he failed badly.

+ The navy's failure in the SolRim war failing to capture most worlds of the Sol. Region despite what should have been an excellent intelligence base

This is another seemingly odd event in Traveller history which reveals a nice surprise when you examine it on a deeper level. Traveller always has been wheels within wheels.

The official story is that the invasion of Earth sapped the Imperium's strength along the war's central front. That story fails under even a cursory examination.

First, 1001 saw the Vegan Autonomous Distrcit liberated, a huge source of fanatic industrial support for the Imperium very close to Earth. The in 1002, the Imperium capture Kadashi, another important depot and shipyard on the Rim.

Also in 1002, Ivan Wolfe, the Solomani CinC was forced to mass his fleets in an attempt to prevent the two Imperial 'pincer' fleets from linking up. He thought he was successful at first after beating one 'pincer'. He failed in the end when, while fighting the second 'pincer' fleet, the pincer he thought he had halted arrived to tip the scales towards a smashing Imperial victory. Wolfe's fleet was pretty much destroyed. What was left was scattered and Wolfe withdrew deeper into the Confederation to regroup leaving Earth uncovered.

The Imperial conquest of Earth took about 6 months, roughly 95 to 313 - 1002. In that time, the Wolfe and the remaining Solomani did not substantially interfere with Imperial operations inside the Sol system. The Solomani fleet was beat and scattered, the Imperial fleet had only been concetrated at Earth and not heavily damage, and the Imperium had the Vegan AR from which to draw supplies.

The Imperium still had all the cards and yet a ceasefire was called. Why? Because the Imperium had already 'liberated' those system which had originally belonged to the Imperium, that's why!

After admitting the Old Earth Union in the mid-500s, Imperial expansion on the Rim essentially stopped. Very few polities rimward of Sol were contacted and fewer were admitted. The Civil War lessened interest too. When the SAR was set-up, the Imperium essentially subcontracted out further rimward expansion and settlement to the Solomani. The situation is vaguely similar to that of the Austro-Hungarian Empire after 1868 with the Solomani playing Hungary to the Imperium's Austria.

The Solomani beavered away adding polities and system to the part of the Imperium they virutally controlled. If those worlds knew anything about the Imperium, it was a very distant body of whom the Solomani occasionally spoke.

Essentially, the Imperium retook those portions of the SAR that it had added to the Imperium and left to the Solomani those portions of the SAR that the Solomani had added to the Imperium. Pretty neat trick, huh?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Liam Devlin]

Arthur hault-Denger wrote:

Well written, Liam. Your point about the free trader's world ending at the external airlock hatch is a very good one; one which applies equally well to corsairs, scouts, naval vessels, to the majority of starships, in fact. I was unaware of many of the specific examples you listed, so the information presented has helped enhance my knowledge of the subject as well as furthering this discussion.

Thank you for the kind words, sir. I am heavily influenced by the writings of "Citizen of the Galaxy" by the great Robert E Heinlein, and CJ Cherryh's "Merchanter's Luck", and several other books from her Earth-Union series.

Glad to add to your store of knowledge!
Merry Christmas, btw!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by flykiller:
know I said I'd shut up now, but ....
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Expressions of Fiat"? An interesting turn of phrase you have there, flykiller.

yeah, does sound kind of stupid. tried to think of a better way to put it, couldn't. sorry.

Well, it was a cumbersome phrase, and without further explanation from you I felt it unwise to risk long-range Zhodani clairsentient telepathic understanding. No Harm Done, sir.

At the risk of being flippant in the face of your statements, I take it you didn't like MT-shattered Imperium/ the Rebellion/ Hard Times very much due to such "fiat settings"?

whether I like it or not, if space-going piracy exists, then greater means and motivation to resist it also exist. there's no internally consistent way around it, only fiat, cannonical or not.

I do not argue the will to resist piracy exists. I argue that with the given of FTL jump time lag, if you can jump away ahead of pursuit, you can most times escape immediate wrath of those who do.
I argue you can hide a 100-600dton ship in a space hex of 1 parsec (4.3 LY) system longer than you think.

For scale-only this example: Trying to find just one man on just one planet is daunting enough, especially if he doesn't wish to be found.

In a star system, there are plenty of places to hide, powered down, from natural caves to man- made ones, where sensors and surveying for said ship and said cave must be painstakingly committed. Cursory sweeps will usually miss it.

Information is the key on both sides, and pirates who commit themselves to a pattern will soon be put out of business, as either mercantile traffic moves and shifts away from them; the mercantile traffic convoys with armed escorts capable of beating and destroying said troublemakers; or if traffic has rerouted due to losses, and the pirates move closer in, they fall prey to the mercantile power's Navy closer to home.

Part of the paradigm of piracy, as with most serial crimes & criminals, is the perverse thrill of "getting away with it". At no time did I deny there would be those who would resist piracy.

The MT-Hard Times book itself, and the Arrival Vengeance, and Operation Vigilante adventures show small states fighting piracy as best they can through Star Mercs (the 6-world pocket empire state of the Unity of Promise/Promise(L)/ Diaspora had some 24x FTRs, 30x odd small craft, 6x armed 200dt merchant ships,6x 400dt SDB's (1 per system), 2x Jump tugs (for the SDB's), 1x 200dtn Yacht, 3x 600dtn armed Liners, 8x former Gazelle CE's, 4x Type T-patrol Cruisers, and a handful of S-class 100dtn ships--a "Navy" of 24 combatants, supplemented by 7x Star Merc ships.

In the Promise subsector, the "Good guys" have the upper hand, the only known band within the same subsector is an armed 200dt trader (their fence ship), 2x jump tug, a 400dt P-class corsair, and three SDB's.

HT book itself describes two small Star Merc outfits: Adan Skerrit's band of three ships (A Fer-de-lance 1kton DE, & 2x Type T-Patrol cruisers) and another led by a chap named Halleck with two ships (an 800dt Broadsword and a Gazelle CE). Both based out of Sufren/Sufren(C)/Diaspora

So yes, the means to resist is there too, in that setting. But as usual as not in the eternal good vs. evil struggle, the good guys are outnumbered by the bad guys in this scenario.

The series of adventures within in set up a climatic battle which is part Q-ship, and a ruse to draw the pirates out in force, and ambush them with the Star mercs.

(of course, instead of considering it as a setting, one may take the snapshot approach mentioned in another thread and say that because of temporary circumstances good conditions for piracy have arisen, get it while you can.)

I don't argue for it (piracy) as a setting per se , as much as a symptom of circumstances myself. Those being Lawlessness, opportunity, lack of a powerful navy to sweep and protect trade (Use your reasons here), and even states and systems who encourage or would benefit otherwise from supporting it as "foreign policy by proxy" (Much like Iran does with terrorism).

Reading my boxed set of the 5FW, the news blurbs leading up to the Zhodani AMbassador's declaration of war on Regina in 1108, there is suspect piracy at Kinorb and Forboldn mentioned.

I am led to believe from reading these the Zhodani, and the Outworld Coalition of the Vargr, and Sword Worlders used piracy in such by proxy means as to distract and draw out certain elements of the Imperial Navy into performing sweeps in preparation to their attacks. They were partially successful.

In the OTU Imperium, there are periods where it gets special focus, and so ebbs away for a time, but never truly goes away. It will re-occur when those who might have escaped return, thinking the coast is clear.

Therefore I see piracy in the TU as a cyclical thing along the frontiers. Like the tides, it waxes and wanes. Besides... It gives reason for the Marine Career class for "Strike" missions in his/her tour--job security!

merry christmas to you too sir, and to everyone! </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you flykiller! And a Happy New Year as well.

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by atpollard:

..."is it really so immoral for some of the poorest people on the face of the Earth to exort a $50 bribe from some of the wealthiest people on the face of the Earth if that is what it takes to feed their family?"

I pose the same question for a TL 8 world along a major trade route. Is it so immoral for the planetary governor to look the other way while a few local "merchants" stop an occasional wealthy liner to steal a cutter and shoot a hole in the fuel tanks. [Of course another local is ready to tow the ship to orbit for a small fee, where another group of locals repair the damage for only a little more than the market rate.] Can a TL 15-16 government with Navy ships protecting fat unarmed multi-kiloton merchants in the core worlds really get that upset at some poor frontier world (that has probably borne the brunt of the last two or three border wars) doing what it takes to survive?

In a word, yes. The government there is either corrupt or incompetent; probably both. That planetary governor is surely failing to administer the laws and manage resources properly if people on that world are starving. Starvation is not a normal part of the sophont life-cycle; it is most frequently a weapon wielded by those in power to marginalize and control those they view as a threat.

Since you mention the Imperial Navy, let me just relay what I have seen among the people of the Frontier Worlds. There, Navy personnel are either idolized or held in extreme contempt, depending upon whether an individual has dealt with them before. Generally speaking, the IN could care less whether a pirate cutter breaches a Subsidized Liner's hull with its lasers. They have more important matters with which to deal; at least that is the common opinion locally.

Originally posted by atpollard:

As the Baron, would you let your people starve to protect the Emperor's corporate purse?

Officially, everyone is opposed to piracy and will cooperate fully to end these terrible acts, unofficially ...

Speaking personally now, obviously, my first and foremost (Kimash!) duty is to serve the Imperium and His Imperial Majesty the Emperor. If sacrifices must be made, Keli Ga will stand ready to make them. It is unlikely that my people will starve, however, as our world is a leader in Ag exports. If circumstances do become desperate enough that our people starve, then my family and I shall starve along with them! I do not stay awake nights pondering this probability, however.

Sadly, you are correct in your last assertion. I have spent the better part of my career working to protect mercantile interests against the costly, devastating (and occasionally deadly) impact of piracy. My company has also been contracted, on more than one occasion, to engage in legitimate privateering, and I have the Imperial Letters of Marque granting me that authority. The enemies of the Imperium are the enemies of us all. Are some people in positions of high office and in the public trust complicit in piratical acts? Of course. Power (and money) corrupts... the corruptible (and greedy).

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:

I am heavily influenced by the writings of "Citizen of the Galaxy" by the great Robert E Heinlein, and CJ Cherryh's "Merchanter's Luck", and several other books from her Earth-Union series.

Cherryh's Merchanter's Luck and subsequent texts of the Cyteen universe are seminal works describing merchant life. Is that little gem still in publication? Highly recommended reading!

 

[mbrinkhues]

One can not take the Hard Times setting independent of the overall MT setting. It works in exactly that situation (Diaspora Sector) at exactly that time (late in the Rebellion) because of several facts:

+ These are old "internal" regions of the empire with little need for maintaining their own defences. They relied on distance to border(1) and the sizeable Imperial Navy forces around

+ With the start of the Rebellion the major fleets either head Lucans call to Sylea, leaving only the reserve fleets behind

+ The Reserve units are then lost to the SolRim defence or the various strongholds (i.e Margaret, Craig) leaving systems with only their patrol assets

+ BlackWar strikes reduce systems further, damaging infrastructure and stripping jump-capabel defence crafts

The result is a severe drop in TechLevels (from 14/15 down to 9-12) and a scavenger economy. This in turn leads to three types of Pirats:

i) Empire builders

Former fleet elements and fleet auxillaries out to build a new home. They have the ships and skills to capture a home base capabel of doing most maintenance (B/C starport) and the military strength to gather the J-Drive parts through extortion or even buy them. IIRC the "Black Tears" from HardTimes are an example. Indro the Lightless form Asignment:Vigilante is another. This group will also scavenge from worlds that have died-out due to the dropping tech level

ii) Ship-stealers

If their ship is at the end of it's live, they steal a new one. Since they massacer most crews anyway, it does not matter much to them. They will also attack worlds that rely on technology to support live, killing the populace and taking the loot (i.e Killer Sharps)

iii) Scavengers/Privateer

Some star systems will use force to aquire necessary parts and worlds to survive. TNE shows that the Unity of Promise (from HT/A:V) does this later in it's life.

The HT setting would not work in the Domain of Deneb or Antares with their fleets still intact. Neither in Gateway where local defence was always more important due to the scattered region and many independent worlds. But it works in what was once a core sector suddenly exposed to war and pirats.


(1) SolRim war is over for 100 years so even the re-conquered regions are peaceful

[ December 27, 2006, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: Liam Devlin ]

 

[Whipsnade]

Phew found it! The holidays have certainly screwed with my to do list!

Originally posted by Aramis:
Number 1 isn't exactly canon, then, bill... Canon for GT, but not for the rest of Traveller.

Aramis,

GT's take on jump masking flows from one paragraph in a certain JTAS article. They applied it in a logical manner and made everyone angry!

The paragraph is: On the other hand, there seems to be a built-in safety feature for ships trying to leave jump space within 100 diameters of a world. Ships naturally precipitate out of jump as they near the 100 diameterlimit.

Further, CT points out that nothing can affect a ship in jump-space...

Re-read what CT has to say on the matter above. Especially that part about ships naturally precipitating out of jump.... It seems CT is of two minds on the matter.

... so logic says it doesn't matter a whit whether the corse is straight, curved, corkscrew, or stairstep, so long as it's not within 100D at either end.

Sorry, that can't be logically inferred at all. I tried and had someone who teaches logic on a collegiate level check my attmepts.

And number 2 isn't entered into canon (that JTAS article was specifically a variant) until TNE.

The actual JTAS issue in question, #24, may be different but my Reprint copy states that MWM's Jumpspace essay was a 'Feature Article'. I don't think they changed the issue's index for the Reprint, do you?

So, for most hab-zone worlds, that means most ships can just aim for the central point, and will precipitate out reasonably close

Did you figure on the star's vector too? The vector matching in TNE and the color text in a few MT adventures deal with the star's, or the system's, vector.

We can make jump masking painlessly go away with a 'ballistic' jump model. What sort of things can we do with temporal uncertainty? I'm open to any suggestion here. I want this fixed.


Have fun,
Bill